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Tuesday, May 11, 2004

Creationist genetics

It's not just the US that is infested with creationists; take a look at Canadian Christianity. Like their southern brethren, they seem to be greatly concerned about homosexuals and evolution; I'm always astounded at how much conservative Christian identity is tied to the denial of civil rights and opposition to science. There are several juicy tidbits of benighted ignorance there, but I'm going to focus on one incredible claim made in an interview with a Kirk Durston, who is apparently a director of some Campus Chrusade for Christ ministry...which, apparently, means he is now a fully qualified creationist biologist. In the interview, he's asked this leading question:

As you know, evolutionists tend to use 'evolution' as a blanket term, without making the crucial distinction between 'micro-evolution' (physical changes within a single species) and 'macro-evolution' (transformation from one species into another). Because micro-evolution is scientifically provable, they can say that evolutionary theory is legitimate science -- and by using the general term 'evolution,' they imply that macro-evolution is also legitimate science. Do you think there is sufficient awareness of the fact that there is no concrete evidence for macro-evolution? Are evolutionists simply afraid to admit this to the public -- and perhaps to themselves?

Creationists do love the terms "microevolution" and "macroevolution"—they pretend to acknowledge that one is good science, so their claim that the other is false looks a little more impartial. Of course macroevolution is legitimate science, backed up by evidence: the fossil record is one big catalog of macroevolutionary events, while the molecular evidence for common descent unambiguously ties together disparate lineages. Read Zimmer's At the Water's Edge (subtitled "Macroevolution and the transformation of life") for some lucidly presented examples.

Durston, of course, obligingly buys into the interviewer's phony claim, but goes a little further and says something astounding.

It is very important to make a distinction between micro-evolution and macro-evolution. Micro-evolution has been known for thousands of years, with the first documented case occurring in Genesis, when Jacob [manipulated] his father-in-law's sheep and goat herd so he could get more striped and spotted livestock. Any examples of evolution we observe today fall into this category.

I quite agree that the breeding of domesticated animals is an excellent example of the transformation of populations with evolutionary consequences. Darwin himself wrote extensively about domesticated animals in his books, and considered them good supporting evidence for his ideas. But have you ever read the story of Jacob and his microevolutionary research program in genetic manipulation? It's amusing. Here it is:

31
"What should I pay you?" Laban asked. Jacob answered: "You do not have to pay me anything outright. I will again pasture and tend your flock, if you do this one thing for me:
32
11 go through your whole flock today and remove from it every dark animal among the sheep and every spotted or speckled one among the goats. Only such animals shall be my wages.
33
In the future, whenever you check on these wages of mine, let my honesty testify against me: any animal in my possession that is not a speckled or spotted goat, or a dark sheep, got there by theft!"
34
"Very well," agreed Laban. "Let it be as you say."
35
That same day Laban removed the streaked and spotted he-goats and all the speckled and spotted she-goats, all those with some white on them, as well as the fully dark-colored sheep; these he left. . . in charge of his sons.
36
Then he put a three days' journey between himself and Jacob, while Jacob continued to pasture the rest of Laban's flock.
37
Jacob, however, got some fresh shoots of poplar, almond and plane trees, and he made white stripes in them by peeling off the bark down to the white core of the shoots.
38
The rods that he had thus peeled he then set upright in the watering troughs, so that they would be in front of the animals that drank from the troughs. When the animals were in heat as they came to drink,
39
the goats mated by the rods, and so they brought forth streaked, speckled and spotted kids.

40
The sheep, on the other hand, Jacob kept apart, and he set these animals to face the streaked or fully dark-colored animals of Laban. Thus he produced special flocks of his own, which he did not put with Laban's flock.
41
Moreover, whenever the hardier animals were in heat, Jacob would set the rods in the troughs in full view of these animals, so that they mated by the rods;
42
but with the weaker animals he would not put the rods there. So the feeble animals would go to Laban, but the sturdy ones to Jacob.
43
Thus the man grew increasingly prosperous, and he came to own not only large flocks but also male and female servants and camels and asses.

This is the biblical science creationists want to put in our schools. How do you breed striped livestock? You let them look at striped sticks while they are mating, and then their offspring will be striped. Under this logic, we'll have to assume that white ceilings are a racist plot to breed more Caucasian children. And yet this creationist, in all seriousness, suggests this ridiculous story as an instance of Biblical microevolution and genetics.

I won't even get into the ethical lesson here, which seems to be that it is OK for Jacob to cheat his father-in-law, and that his reward is to own servants.


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Comments:
#2392: — 05/11  at  09:37 AM
<i>It's not just the US that is infested with creationists; take a look at Canadian Christianity. Like their southern brethren, they seem to be greatly concerned about homosexuals and evolution; I'm always astounded at how much conservative Christian identity is tied to the denial of civil rights and opposition to science.</i>

I'm not astounded at all. The purpose of pointing at those who aren't like us or who profess contrary beliefs is to heighten the difference between Us and Them. Conservatives of all stripes who might be divided on other matters at least all share a common disdain of homosexuals as well as atheists. This gives those leaders who engage in such rhetoric support from their followers. In other words, they're playing to their base. The reason why Papal infallibility was devised in the 19th century wasn't because the Catholic Church really believed in it, but because it allowed the Church as an institution to better wall off their flock from the growing influence of modernity by using the tool of "If the Pope says it, it must be true" to protect the Church's power.

I don't think all Christians are like this, of course. But I do think liberal and even moderate Christians are eventually going to have to grasp the nettle of the supernatural assumptions that their faith incorporates and pull them out. To some this may only leave what amounts to humanism, but given that Jesus was human I think you can still have Christianity, albeit a Christianity where the fictional part is acknowledged as such but is still used as the basis for moral instruction. Sort of like Aesop's Fables, only with Jesus instead of Aesop.

Believers here, if any, feel free to flame away, er, respond...



#2393: Courtney — 05/11  at  11:47 AM
Heh. My dad (a seventh grade public school science teacher) used to get death threats whenever he taught evolution. Or geologic history. Nowadays, if they can spout some biblical nonsense semi-relevant, he lets 'em have credit. (and you'd be surprised how many of them can quote chapter and verse) He's not allowed to flunk more than a certain percentage anyway.



#2394: — 05/11  at  04:27 PM
Jacob simply outwitted Laban, that's all. His herds and Laban's herds were separated by three days of walking, but they shared the same watering hole, and that's where the breeding took place. Jacob set up the rods based on ancient superstitions to give the appearance of some kind of hocus-pocus in the breeding that was going on. It was a brilliant ruse. He tied his better, stronger female animals up near the watering hole when they were in heat, where they'd be conspicuous for Laban's males. He tied up his male animals far away. Naturally, there were far more offspring with streaks, speckles and spots than purely white, as we all know from genetics now -- and which Jacob knew then. He quietly separated those animals from Laban's flocks since they were his under the deal, and added them to his own. His flocks thus grew larger and larger and stronger and stronger, while Laban's stayed about the same size and were weaker. He didn't cheat Laban -- he just outsmarted him. Maybe you should STUDY the Bible instead of bashing it, Sir. You'd be amazed how many dumb mistakes you are making out of sheer ignorance. Hate to break the news to you, but. . . .



#2395: — 05/11  at  04:39 PM
Jane,

While that might be a reasonable explanation of the events described in that bible chapter, that is stated nowhere in the text. You can interpret the text all you like, but as it's written, this holy and inerrant text describes unspeckled goats having speckled offspring because of the coloration of some twigs near where they mated.

I'll be nice and assume your assertion that Jacob knew about genetics (did he "believe" in evolution?) is just a twist in the sentence structure.

Maybe you should READ the Bible instead of wishfully reinterpreting what it says, Madame. You'd be amazed... etc.



's avatar #2396: PZ Myers — 05/11  at  04:46 PM
"the goats mated by the rods, and so they brought forth streaked, speckled and spotted kids" seems to me to be a plain statement of causality. There is no way you can stretch this account to meet your interpretation.

And ancient superstitions they may be, but they are canonized by the Bible. Doesn't that make it a work of superstition?

I'm afraid he did cheat Laban. Taking advantage of someone's ignorance to rob him of a large part of his flock, while also making sure his remaining flock was "weaker", doesn't sound to me like the kind of thing I'd do to my father-in-law. Or anyone, for that matter.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#2397: — 05/11  at  05:10 PM
To Andrew: Laban was duped and now you are duped. Read it again. Maybe it would help if you moved your lips. :>) JK :>) As for how to properly read and understand the Bible, there's a cool skill you could look up in the dictionary: "hermeneutics." You ain't got it, Bro. But you could, if you'd lose the attitude and get into the spirit of the scholarship that it takes to understand the Bible properly. OK? No hard feelings: just honest advice.

To PZ: Well, why do people buy one brand of cookies and not another? Packaging? Price? Sprinkles? A "plain statement of causality" is that they liked 'em and thought they were "best" so they bought 'em. Doesn't mean those cookies are what they THINK they are. Laban liked the deal Jacob offered and thought it was "best." So he . . . bought it. :>) Jacob's maneuver with the fancy rods was just for show, to cement his success. Get it? As for "superstitions" in the Bible, it's chock full of 'em: weird pagan worship rituals, child sacrifice, incest, astrology -- all kinds of weird things are used in the Bible as examples of how dumb people can be and how NOT to be deceived. Again, I say Jacob just outsmarted Laban and didn't cheat him: he didn't rob him, he just was a better businessman. It's like this: if we both take a test, and I score higher on the curve than you do and get a better grade, did I rob you and cheat you? THINK ABOUT IT, BUCKO. God wants all of us to succeed, like Jacob. But to know how, you've got to read God's Word, and do the thinking work that it takes to understand and apply it. Thanks for the opportunity to give you guys a glimpse of what you're missing. :>)



's avatar #2398: PZ Myers — 05/11  at  05:26 PM
Unreal.

If Jacob was planning to connive to take over a bunch of Laban's flock, why put up "fancy rods"? Your interpretation simply makes no sense at all. Actually, your use of the word "hermeneutics" suggests that you think it means "invent whatever interpretation you want, then rationalize it".

If that kind of twisted justification for greed is what I'm missing, boy, am I glad to be an atheist. And somebody remind me to never trust a Christian in any kind of deal.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



's avatar #2399: PZ Myers — 05/11  at  05:28 PM
(Yes, I know most Christians aren't like Susan.)

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#2400: — 05/11  at  05:49 PM
Susan,

I'd begun typing out a response to your post that addressed the points, but it was really boring. I'm just going to skip ahead to the personal attacks and point out that your smiley is even more annoying than the normal annoying smiley (is the '>' supposed to be a nose? jesus with a small 'j'), as well as your elementary school/mom use of slang is just embarassing. You sound like Ned Flanders channeling Dennis Miller, uh, Sis/BUCKO.

Needless to say, your argument is full of shit. If I wanted to spend time interpreting the Word of God, I'd believe in him. Just don't assume your references to the bible logically lead to your hackneyed interpretations and please, please don't believe that they are science.

Oh, and no hard feelings, of course.



#2401: — 05/11  at  05:54 PM
ok, fine.

If you really believe in this god, why would you even need to question his ability to affect the pheotypes of a herd of goats through this sort of magical incantation. Considering you believe this guy designed the freaking things, why in the world would you need to invoke evolution to explain this?



#2402: John Wilkins — 05/11  at  08:23 PM
If white ceilings cause white births (as is biblically warranted) what would mirrored ceilings cause? Is this the explanation of heredity - each partners conceives as they see the other, and that is why children resemble both their parents? Children conceived in tawdry motels must resemble the partner on the bottom, therefore.

Hey, a scientific program worth pursuing. Can anyone lend me $100 for the next few nights?



's avatar #2403: PZ Myers — 05/11  at  08:38 PM
You know you're going to need at least 9 months to carry out this study.

I think mirrored ceilings might explain where buttheads come from.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#2404: John Wilkins — 05/11  at  09:37 PM
I'll continue as long as it takes, and as long as the funding holds out. I'm dedicated like that.



's avatar #2405: PZ Myers — 05/11  at  11:42 PM
You are a true scientist and scholar.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#2406: — 05/12  at  07:26 AM

Someone's got to be the control here. A less glamorous role I realize, but one I'm willing to fill.



#2407: — 05/12  at  05:47 PM
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/false.html#genetics



#2408: — 05/12  at  10:35 PM
Gee, you must have been faking-sick that day and missed Sunday School, when most of us little kiddies learned this story. :>) FYI: Jacob's father-in-law and uncle, Laban, was a pagan. He had "household gods" that he consulted, among other superstitions. Jacob was well aware of the phony superstition of the pagan herdsmen of the time, that experiences or sights seen by mothers in pregnancy could decisively affect their unborn offspring ("mark the baby"). Jacob didn't buy in to that stuff, but he used the superstition of the local yokels as a "cover" for the intelligent selective breeding program that he was undertaking. He basically put the food plants in the troughs when the stronger males were around and made sure his best females were there for that boy-meets-girl thing. Meanwhile, the stupid pagans were distracted by the ruse of the striped and polka-dotted branches. It was actually very humorous on several levels. Note that groves of poplar trees were where pagans worshiped their phony baloney nature gods that got them in so much trouble with the one true God (Hosea 4:13). Sheep loved to eat the poplar tree, too, but I bet Jacob chose that kind of tree as a secret "tweak" of the pagans who'd made him work for them for next to nothing for so long. Also note that the almond symbolized the dependability of God and is probably why Jacob chose that for the troughs, again as a quiet "in your face" to his tormentors. I think the plane tree is really the chestnut tree, a common tree of the locale and I don't know any particular spiritual significance other than the moo-moo's thought it was tasty. Anyway, he kept mating his best with Laban's best, knowing that the vast majority of the offspring would be dark and spotted and thus would end up in his herd, not Laban's. Laban thought Jacob was a sucker for wanting the spotted animals. But the fur color didn't matter at all for meat and milk products. Laban should have known better than to think Jacob was stupid, for before Jacob went to work for him, Laban had very little property (Genesis 30:30), but Jacob increased his wealth a whole bunch by being smart while working for him for 14 years, suffering Laban's deceit and all kinds of pay cuts and other fandango. Laban admits that in Gen. 30:27, and admits that Jacob's success is because of the Lord's favor on Jacob. The last six years Jacob worked there, building his own flocks, he didn't actually take anything from Laban -- he just outfumbled him, business-wise, and still left him far richer than before he came. OK? Now you can have a gold star on your paper because you've learned the lesson that, I hope, will make you have a newfound or renewed appreciation of the Bible and its -- yessirree Bob -- inerrancy. If you'd like to avoid this kind of embarrassing misunderstanding of the Bible in the future, and I certainly hope you do, I'd recommend "Introduction to Biblical Interpretation" by Dr. William W. Klein, Dr. Craig L. Blomberg and Dr. Robert L. Hubbard Jr. (W Publishing Group, 1993, 518 pp). Great poolside reading this summer! Share with all your fun, fun, fun atheist friends! :>)



#2409: — 05/13  at  07:10 AM
And here I thought "mating by the rods" meant artificial insemination!



#2410: — 05/13  at  11:05 AM
What you folks have to learn is that the Bible doesn’t say what it says. It says what Susan says it says.

Verses 39-42 sure don’t leave much wiggle room.

From page 4 of Susan’s book at Amazon: “As we will see, the role of the Spirit in understanding God’s Word is indispensable. The Spirit convinces God’s people of the truth of the biblical message and convicts and enables them to live consistently with that truth.” Basically, they concede that the Bible could never stand on its own merit.

i.e. If you’re not gullible, you’re not going to “get it”.

The url posted above defends the passage differently. The result was not due to the specifics just mentioned but rather a miracle, which is “plainly” described in the verses following. Rather different than Susan’s take.

Believers agree that the Bible requires interpretation. But they disagree about that interpretation. Doesn’t give you the warm fuzzies, does it?



#2411: — 05/13  at  12:52 PM
Gong, Duane. You left out the next sentence from that Bible interpretation book. The quote you gave people here is by consequence 'way out of context, and deceptive. But you KNEW that. :>)

Yes, it's true that people who don't have the Holy Spirit illuminating the meaning of the Bible because they reject Jesus Christ can't possibly understand the Bible. They block themselves from that ability. But understanding the Bible is not some kind of a magic trick. It takes WORK and EFFORT to understand the Bible correctly. As the passage you so conveniently quit quoting goes on to say next, "But the Spirit's help does not replace the need to interpret biblical passages according to the principles of language communication."

There's hope for you yet, though, Duane! Get the book and you can get off the Gong Show of atheism once and for all, and understand what God is trying to tell you, through His wonderful, inerrant holy Word. :>)

If others are thinking hermeneutics is some kind of hocus-pocus based on Duane's post, here are the subheads from the 518-pg. "Introduction to Biblical Interpretation" to give you an idea of the literary, historical and analytical scholarship entailed:

Chapter 1: The Need for Hermeneutics

Why Hermeneutics?
Hermeneutics Defined
The Art and Science of Interpretation
The Role of the Interpreter
The Meaning of the Message
Some Challenges of Bible Interpretation
Distance of Time
Cultural Distance
Geographical Distance
Distance of Language
Eternal Relevance -- The Divine Factor
The Goal of Hermeneutics
Conclusion

Chapter 2: The History of Interpretation

Jewish Interpretation
Rabbinic Judaism
Hellenistic Judaism
The Qumran Community
The Apostolic Period (ca. A.D. 30-100)
The Patristic Period (ca. A.D. 100-590)
The Apostolic Fathers (ca. A.D. 100-150)
Alexandria versus Antioch (ca. A.D. 150-400)
Church Councils (ca. A.D. 400-590)
The Middle Ages (ca. A.D. 590-1500)
The Reformation (ca. A.D. 1500-1650)
The Post-Reformation Period (ca. A.D. 1650-1800)
The Modern Period (ca. A.D. 1800-Present)
The Nineteenth Century
The Twentieth Century
Post-World War I
Post World War II

Chapter 3: The Canon and Translations

I'm getting tired of typing :>) and hope you can see that we ain't just whistlin' Dixie when it comes to the knowledge and effort required to do this properly. So I'll switch to key points from the remaining nine chapters to show the broad sweep of skills required:

Qualifications of the Interpreter
Presuppositions for Correct Interpretation
Levels of Meaning
Textual Meaning
Literary Context
Historical-Cultural Background
Word Meanings
Grammatical-Structural Relationships
Old Testament Poetry
Narratives
Law
Prophecy
Wisdom
Avoiding Mistakes in Application (DING DONG, DUANE!!! THAT ONE'S FOR YOU!!! :>) )

Here's a great subsection you really need, too, me boyo:

A Four-Step Methodology for Legitimate Application
Determine the Original Application(s)
Evaluate the Level of Specificity of the Original Applications
Identify the Cross-Cultural Principles
Find Appropriate Applications that Embody the Broader Principles

Since this is stuff that Bible students like me know, and you big palooka Bible-haters don't, then every time you propound and pontificate what you think the Bible means -- with your barn doors wide open exposing your own ignorance -- it just makes us "good guys" sigh, smile and wish you'd "zip it."

Just get the book, Duane. :>)



#2412: — 05/13  at  01:40 PM
Looks to me like that point is made and conceded. “Proper” interpretation presupposes belief.

We are left with verses 32-42 plainly saying the rods affected offspring. Apparently, only a believer’s mind can wiggle out of it.

And we are left with varying interpretations from “scholars” who are absolutely persuaded their view is correct. Inerrancy ain’t much good if nobody can prove which view is correct.



#2413: — 05/13  at  03:37 PM
'Nother gong, me boyo. To properly interpret any set of symbols, one doesn't need to BELIEVE the message is correct, nor to revere it as holy, does one? Such as . . . code-breakers? an astrophysics text? musical notation?

It's the same thing with the Bible or anything else that communicates abstractions. Takes mental muscle power, Duane. No magic, no mumbo-jumbo. That's why you don't love the Bible . . . yet. :>) You just ain't learned how to read it yet. You just ain't applied yo'se'f to the task. Gotta do some "reps" so you're not such a 90-pound weakling on the beach getting intellectual sand kicked in your face like this. :>)

Takes context, a knowledge of history, an understanding of etymology, familiarity with Biblical symbols, genres, storylines and archetypes, and most of all experience with the wondrous literary polyvalence of the Bible.

Look at it this way: if you found a piece of paper with this number:

398-6252

. . . you'd be hard-pressed to interpret what that number means. Is it a bank account? A password? A school identification number?

But if that piece of paper were inside someone's telephone book, in the "T" section, and it matched the phone number recorded for a certain "Duane Tiemann," and the phone book belonged to the keeper of the MONKEY CAGE at the local zoo, also listed as the address of the "Duane Tiemann" in question, then you'd be able to interpret what that number means with a high rate of accuracy: your phone number, Ape Boy.

OOOH -- OOOH -- OOOH -- AAAAH AAAAH AAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!! :>)

Face it, Duane. You guys are blaspheming God by willfully misleading people about what the Bible says. You think you're making a monkey out of Him. Ohhhhhh, Duane:

Psalm 2:4

But do you know what? God never laughs at anybody without being full of love for them, and He listens to His children who pray diligently, on their faces, claiming these nonbelievers for the Kingdom, as I do for you, even though you look like a monkey, and you act like one, too. :>)




's avatar #2414: PZ Myers — 05/13  at  04:30 PM
Jebus. The raving fundie nutcases have discovered Pharyngula.

Seriously, Ms. Susan, your excuses for the Bible are a colossal load of BS.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#2415: Rory Parle — 05/13  at  04:52 PM
Okay Susan I thik this is a reasonable summary of what you've written so far:

"The Bible doesn't mean what it says, it means what it means. Since I have faith I can determine this meaning even though none of what I say is actually written anywhere."

Now I think the rest of us can reasonably react by saying that no-one cares what you think it means because, by the simple act of reading it, we can determine what it does mean. Since it says "the goats mated by the rods, and so they brought forth streaked, speckled and spotted kids" we can - like I said, using reason - determine that it means "the goats mated by the rods, and so they brought forth streaked, speckled and spotted kids". That's a clear statement of causality.

You seem to gain great pleasure from your understanding of the Bible. I can only imagine what joy you would gain from an actual understanding of the world, from (genuine) cosmology to evolution. The reality of our universe is so much more wonderous than any bronze-age fiction.



#2416: John Wilkins — 05/13  at  04:59 PM
I'm prepared to do a Bible study after testing creationist genetics, with any willing creationist subjects of the female variety...



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