Pharyngula

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Wednesday, April 20, 2005

A few things I've learned…

From bacteria and yeast, I learned about metabolism and DNA synthesis. I learned the genetic code. I deciphered the basics of regulation, how genes can be active at one time and silent another. I acquired the essential tools of molecular biology.

From sponges and coelenterates, I learned about the fundamentals of multicellularity: how cells can communicate and cooperate, how you can build a more complex whole from simpler parts.

From worms and flies, I learned much more. There were genes extracted and isolated and analyzed that were universal to all animals. I figured out the basics of pattern formation: how embryos figure out which end is up, how they determine the layout of their body plan. I learned how to set aside tissue to build a nervous system. I saw how to wire a limb or an eye.

From sea slugs I learned how a reflex works. I saw the molecular cascades that lie behind the circuitry changes that create memories.

From fish and mice I learned about the complexity of vertebrates. I saw the same genes I found in flies and worms re-expressed in novel ways to assemble us. I found a spinal cord, a hindbrain, a midbrain, a forebrain, all organized in similar ways to my own nervous system. I learned about sophisticated behavior.

From primates I learned about complex social interactions. Tool use. Dominance hierarchies. Maternal behavior. Aggression. Cooperation. I see echoes of human culture, of the base behaviors that underpin what we do.

From all of these and more we all learn so much: there is a unity to life that lets us see a piece of ourselves in a bacterium, a worm, a fish, a monkey, and let's us see that piece in a context that illuminates why it is there, how it came to be, what it does in us. It helps us to view the world in a new perspective, one that isn't blinkered by narrow human preconceptions, one that opens up a whole universe to our grasp. This is powerful, rich, deep stuff.

From Powerline I learned how stupid some people can be.

This AP headline caught my eye: Expert: Apes May Be Key to Human Nature. This strikes me as odd. I would think that humans provide better clues to human nature than apes, and we have thousands of years of human history, not to mention six billion or so living humans, to draw on for information about human nature. But the idea of drawing conclusions about humans from observations of apes has a long history, and shows no signs of going away. Why is that? I suspect it's because some people don't like what human history and human behavior tell us about human nature.

Strangely, while I would normally feel anger at such self-absorbed ignorance from a pundit, these comments stepped so far outside the bounds of what we know that I could only feel pity. Poor John Hinderaker; so unaware, so close-minded, so wrong. He sits there smug and insulated, not knowing that right there in his city there are people who are working to derive the history and function of his every molecule, tracing them right back to those apes he finds irrelevant, and further to fish and bugs and worms and the little invisible germs proliferating on his body. How can we understand human nature if we ignore its antecedents?

The conventional view is that religion in general, and Catholicism in particular, represents a backward, primitive way of looking at the world, and especially at human nature, compared to modern, progressive science. But who do you think has a more sophisticated understanding of human nature: Cardinal Ratzinger, the new pope, or the researcher who believes that studying bonobos can enable humans to construct an "ideal world"?

Cardinal Ratzinger is an ape. He is driven by oh-so-typical ape motivations, the desire for dominance, the need to control the reproductive behavior of other members of his clan, the back-and-forth of social feedback. His brain contains circuits of reward and punishment we can find in rats. His neurotransmitters and the signalling cascades that modulate his neuronal activity are present in worms. The ion channels that mediate transmembrane potentials are inherited from single-celled eukaryotes. The machinery of his cells can be mapped back billions of years. I suspect that troop of primates dwelling in the Vatican could learn a great deal from the objective eye of a primatologist.

Who has the more sophisticated understanding of human nature: the man who thinks he can squeeze our history into a span of a few thousand years and the isolated vision of a single species and worse, the limited traditions of a single culture, or the one who aspires to comprehend the full breadth and depth of our place in the universe?


(Thanks (I think) to Norwegianity for bringing that Powerline drivel to my attention)


Trackback url: http://pharyngula.org/index/trackback/2195/sa1frLhS/

Comments:
#22510: John Wilkins — 04/20  at  06:12 PM
Hey! Myers (if that's how you really spell it)! That's my story of papal (apal?) motivations...



's avatar #22512: PZ Myers — 04/20  at  06:18 PM
Repressed sex drives channeled into efforts to regulate the sexual behavior of the troop? Actually, I stole that idea from readings of certain primatologists, such as Hrdy.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#22514: John Wilkins — 04/20  at  06:28 PM
Nope. The stuff about dominance. I don't want to say too much right now.



#22518: — 04/20  at  07:02 PM
That's what happens when people who don't understand evolution try to mock scientific research. Instead of realizing, "Well, we all share a common ancestor, so we can find out interesting stuff about ourselves by looking at the adaptations that other mammals came up with," all they can say is, "Study monkeys to understand humans!? That funny!"



#22522: — 04/20  at  07:46 PM
Hey, Wilkins, where'd "Evolving Thoughts" go? I get the Blogger start page at your (former?) URL now.



#22523: John Wilkins — 04/20  at  07:52 PM
Still there as far as I can tell:

http://evolvethought.blogspot.com/



#22526: Jeff Fecke — 04/20  at  08:02 PM
Yes, why would we try to understand how humans work by looking at apes?

Why would we try to understand how planets' orbits work by observing falling rocks?

Why would we try to understand how drugs work by experimenting on cells in petri dishes?

Why would we try to understand how the Common Law works by reading judges' opinions?

Why would we try to understand anything by looking at it by taking small bits of it? By looking at its forebearers? By arguing through analogy?

Other than the fact that it's a damn good way to try to understand things, I have no idea.



#22528: judgeMC — 04/20  at  08:51 PM
I think he's really just afraid of the thought of a female dominate society. Just like the Catholic Church.



#22531: — 04/20  at  09:23 PM
I've actually got a lot of sympathy for the view you're attacking. Of course ethology can tell us a lot about human beings. For one thing, it gives us hypotheses to test. But you don't need to be ignorant of evolutionary biology to think that there is a real risk of ignoring human history and behavior as sources of knowledge about human nature, in favor of animal models. This is a point that has been made repeatedly by Kitcher and Dupre. Arguments of this form are commonly found in the evolutionary psychology literature:

Self-aborbed and ignorant humanists believe that we could have a less hierarchical/patriarchal/violent society. But they forget we are apes, and that therefore our behavior is constrained by our evolutionary past. Therefore we cannot achieve these goals.

Versions of these arguments are found in Pinker, Wilson, Baron-Cohen, Thornhill & Palmer and Buss (among others). People like Dupre and Kitcher (and, less grandly, me) argue that our recorded past give us reason to think that (while no doubt our cognitive capacities, biases and dispositions are inherited from remote ancestors) these goals are achievable.

Of course, this is not an argument against doing ethology, or molecular biological work on sea snails and fruit flies, or what have you. We do learn about human beings from these studies. We acquire knowledge we cannot acquire through history and sociology in these ways. But these sciences have at least as good, and I'm tempted to think rather better, claim to being the key to human nature.



#22532: John Wilkins — 04/20  at  09:41 PM
Neil, I think the problem with comparative ethology lies in a failure to take evolution seriously, rather than the reverse. You can inductively generalise from one group of organisms to another only in terms of their relatedness, and in terms of the nature of the characters used. The approach I guess you are objecting to is a straight out functionalistic and analogous inference. And since analogy in evolution is uninformative and dangerously confusing, being a matter of convergence and so only as good an indicator as the analogy itself, the sorts of error you mention occur.

But if you take a homology approach - and only make inferences on the basis of shared derived characters (i.e., make inferences on the basis that which we share because a recent common ancestor had it) then the inferences are much better, and can be adapted to unique features of the target organism.

For example, we can make inferences about language on the basis of shared features with bonobos and mountain gorillas, just to the extent that in sharing these traits they indicate what our common ancestor might have had. But we must allow for our own evolutionary path and novelties, and not overgeneralise. If a gorilla cannnot express displeasure at Vogon poetry, there may be no moral to draw from human appreciation.

The key point about comparative biology is that it must track the relatedness of the organisms. Monkeys and apes are more closely related to us than, say, cetaceans. So they are more informative about our past than the cetaceans are.

[Irony - the keyword to post is "cladistics"...]



#22534: — 04/20  at  09:47 PM
A well-reasoned, just dudgeon is a thing of beauty.



#22536: coturnix — 04/20  at  09:54 PM
Think: why is it called POWERline? Should be POWERtrip, perhaps: trying to become alpha-males in order to get the first dibs at the females.

And all these HINDrockets and HINDerackers...those are all Beta-males in a baboon society, hoping to sneak a copulation while the Big Guy is not watching.

And Ratzinger is now a self-satisfied Alpha-male in a mandril troop (mandrils actually supress reproduction in subordinate males). He must be mad he had to wait this long to ascend to the Alpha-male status - at the tender age of 78 what is he really going to do with all the chicks he can get now?

Of course we are not slaves of our genes and society, through parenting and education, can greatly modify our behaviors. Are Hindrockets of this world just less acculturated/civilized members of the society, thus more prone to heed the call of their hormones?˛



#22537: — 04/20  at  10:01 PM
As an undergrad student majoring in animal sciences and zoology, I just wanted to say that I thought this was an awsome post. The interrelatedness of ogranisms and how they work is facinating to me. Keep up the good work.



#22538: — 04/20  at  10:03 PM
Far be it from me to disagree with a silverback. I'm still not entirely convinced of the utility of the approach. I can think of plenty of things we've learned about human brains (and therefore minds) from molecular biology. We know a lot about the genes involved in long term memory, for instance, from studies originally on Drosophila which were then replicated on mice. Our knowledge about the role played by amygdala and hippocampus is similarly derived from animal models. Ape brains are more similar to ours than are mice brains, and the projectibility of results from apes is therefore correspondingly better. But only slightly (there's a saying among people who do animal models: flies are just flies, but mice are people). Of course my knowledge is limited, but I can't think of any real advances in knowledge of human nature that have come from studies of primates, which weren't achievable by examing much more remote ancestors. Examples?



#22540: John Wilkins — 04/20  at  10:49 PM
Far be it from me to disagree with a silverback.

Well we do get grumpy. You wouldn't like us when we're grumpy.

The self-knowledge we gain from animal models is in direct propertion to their relatedness to us. Murine models work because they conserve many of the genes and molecular pathways that we share, and to an extent work on cephalopod neurons tells us about our own because they are animals as we are (ditto for Drosophila), and so on.

Work done on working memory constraints in "reciprocal altruism" (there's a term I hate) on macaques and other monkeys has contributed to understanding some (not some aspects of the ways in which we interact economically. We do this better with them than, say, moles or voles, because they have many of the same exigencies we do, and for the simple reason that they are closely related to us. But in any case of extrapolation across phylogenetic lines, the lessons attenuate as the phylogenetic distance increases. At least, that's how it looks to me.

John S. Wilkins : evolvethought.blogspot.com



#22541: — 04/20  at  10:54 PM
I can't think of any real advances in knowledge of human nature that have come from studies of primates, which weren't achievable by examing much more remote ancestors. Examples?
One example is our detailed knowledge of the visual cortex - specifically it's hierarchical organization (via macaque studies).

This, of course, is leading us towards finding the so-called Neural Correlates of Consciousness (NCC), through the understanding of the primate (and human, of course) parietal and frontal lobes (thalamus, etc).

Eventually, non-human primate models will fall short when attempting to provide a full understanding of the human neocortex, simply because humans are thought to have qualitative (as opposed to quantitative) differences from the rest of the primate world, especiallyh when it comes to the "newer" additions to the cortex.

Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

-Jerry Garcia



#22542: — 04/20  at  11:00 PM
Newt Gingrich put Frans de Waal's Chimpanzee Politics on his reading list for members of Congress. I guess he thought they might learn something from it.



#22548: — 04/20  at  11:53 PM
What a beautiful post.
As someone currently studying mitochondria it was extremely relevant.
I figured if I sue the Vatican for discriminatory work practices I could be the next Pope. Ah well.



#22549: — 04/20  at  11:55 PM
RIGHT ON! I had Coca-cola come out my nose when my eye caught the line about Powerline, after reading "this is what I learned from species x,y,z" and then BAM! Hinderaker is nailed. He reminds me of someone that wants to to paint the world with his first, superficial and shallow thought, if that is what it can be called, without education, studying the literature or research of any kind. He is trying to intuit what the world is about without bothering to get off his fat ass, nevermind taking the bag off his head, opening an eyelid half-way and peering out of a fogged up window. In a word or two, he is a DOUCHEBAG.



#22553: — 04/21  at  12:09 AM
Oaky, I'm convinced that we can learn something about human nature from studying apes (actually, I never doubted it, because I've said as much in print). I stand by the claim that the social sciences and history have a better claim to be the sciences of human nature. Notice, for instance, that we learn about working memory constraints on economic interaction in human beings from the study of monkeys only if we can independently verify that (a) human beings have similar limits on working memory (which obviously is not established by looking at other animals) and (b) that we are able to model human economic interaction, using the techniques of the social sciences. My problem with Hinderaker is not that he does't study evolution or ethology, but that he has very little sense of the variety of human societies. This is something he actually shares with the evolutionary psychologists I mentioned (not, though, with all evolutionary psychologists).



#22555: John Wilkins — 04/21  at  12:16 AM
Well I can't dispute you on that. Comparative ethology can only take us so far, and like any avenue of investigation must be cross checked against other avenues.

My problems - they are many - with Hinderaker includes, yes, that he fails to understand the diversity of human society (something all pundits appear to have to do), but also that he thinks that studying any animal, human or otherwise, is so we can install an ideal society (that's what pundits do, not scientists, natural or social).

But to have a complete comprehension of this species we happen to fiund ourself within (some more willingly than others) we surely need to understand our evolutionary natures as well as our social natures? They coevolve, after all. Apropos of which, I mention the excellent book by William Durham:

Durham, W. H. (1991). Coevolution : genes, culture, and human diversity. Stanford, Calif., Stanford University Press.

John S. Wilkins : evolvethought.blogspot.com



#22566: — 04/21  at  01:32 AM
Why is that? I suspect it's because some people don't like what human history and human behavior tell us about human nature.


What? The?? Fuck???

1) Who the hell -- other than Mr. Hindrocket -- likes what human history and human behavior tell us about human nature? PZ's analysis of Pope Ratz could apply equally to most human beings throughout most of human history:

He is driven by oh-so-typical ape motivations, the desire for dominance, the need to control the reproductive behavior of other members of his clan, the back-and-forth of social feedback.


2) What the hell does Mr. Hindrocket think chimpanzees are like?

3) Why the hell does Mr. Hindrocket think liberals would prefer human nature to be more like chimpanzee nature?



#22569: CKL — 04/21  at  04:31 AM
John & Neil,

That was quite impressive the two of you resolved a debate between proponents of Evolutionary Psychology (and other off shoots of sociobiology) and people like John Dupre and Philip Kitcher that's been going on for damn near ever.



Trackback: We are all PanzerKardinal Tracked on: My cummerbund fell in the toilet (60.225.18.25) at 2005 04 21 06:25:25
We are all PanzerKardinal. Biology contains such interesting insights into human society.



#22572: — 04/21  at  06:30 AM
Thad, your questions are based on the understandable but erroneous assumption that Hinderaker (or whatever the man's name is) thinks, instead of just expectorating bovine excrement.



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