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Wednesday, January 19, 2005

A little thinking out of the box

Nathan Newman is saying some interesting things about how we should deal with the Intelligent Design creationism movement and the issue of American secularism. It's a radically different perspective than the good guys/bad guys polarization we're usually dealing with, and so it's useful to think about and shake up some of the ol' cerebral calcifications. I'll run through some of the main themes, from the one that I think is completely wrong to some strong ideas I could get behind, although not without some worries.

1. One thing he's suggesting is that we shouldn't get hung up on the religious motives of the ID camp, and we should recognize some of their secular ideals, too. This is a serious mistake, I think, and gives them far too much credit—and unfortunately he undermines his own argument by not doing his homework.

The very fact that they see themselves initially engaged in academic debate shows a secular component of their work. The biggest mistake that many secularists make is not taking their opponents seriously. As I've said, I think the ID science is crap, but there's lots of crappy science that has been believed by respectable people for long periods of time. And much of ID is framed in subtle ways. For those unfamiliar with it, maybe you should check out the Science and Research section of the Discovery Institute. There's a hell of a lot of secular sounding critiques of Darwinism there, whatever the overall purpose of the research may be -- and let's not pretend that many advocates of Darwinism have not had other ideological goals that led them to be strong advocates of evolutionary change.

The subtle and secular critiques he brings up are a facade. Newman has read the Wedge document; it's hard to see how he can now claim that there is a serious secular component to what they are doing. The ID creationists recognize that science does have credibility and authority in American culture (and that's a strength we need to exploit more), so what they are doing is adopting the language and posture of science to pursue entirely religious goals. "Secular sounding critiques" is all they've got; there is no substance there. I really recommend Creationism's Trojan Horse: The Wedge of Intelligent Design by Forrest and Gross as a solid look at what's really going on at the Discovery Institute beneath that veneer of fake science.

A minor problem: Newman also uses the term "Darwinist". That's a tell to us in biology. No one here uses that term—it's archaic and misleading and suggests a very narrow and specific subdomain of evolution. It's like referring to Christians as Athanasians. It'll leave most of them scratching their heads and wondering what the hell you're talking about, and confirm that you've got your information about us from suspect sources.

2. Another point Newman makes is not marred by misconceptions, and although it's completely counter to the assumptions of most evolution proponents, maybe it needs to be thought about. He suggests that the courtroom battles are distracting us from the job of winning over religious voters, and that maybe we should let the creationists slide a little of their crap into the schools, where it can be confronted.

Courts make secularists too intellectually and politically slack. The religious right is mobilizing broadly, not just at the ballot box but in the day-to-day lives of people to convince them that their values are the correct ones. Commentator Dan S. worries that if evolution and "intelligent design" end up in the same classroom, he doesn't think students will come out with the right evaluation of the evidence. But that's a problem in the larger society where parents aren't pushing for a fair evaluation of the evidence by their children. And that's where we need to organize, not just depend on courts to fix "the problem" over the objections of parents.

He's suggesting that not only has it weakened the broader cultural response by secularists to fundamentalists, but it has fueled a backlash by the fundamentalists. This is a point Susan Jacoby has also made in the NY Times.

At the beginning of the 20th century, however, America was well on its way to an accommodation between science and mainstream religion, now a fait accompli in the rest of the developed world, that pleases neither atheists nor theocrats manqués but works for almost everyone else. A growing number of Americans accepted both evolution and religion but considered it the responsibility of the church, not public schools, to sort out the role of God. This view was expressed in 1904 by Maynard M. Metcalf, a zoologist and a liberal Christian, who praised the move to exclude religious speculation from the teaching of life sciences.

The Scopes trial changed all that. Instead of being the nail in the coffin of creationism as many believe, the trial undermined the emerging accommodation between religion and science by intensifying the fundamentalists' conviction that acceptance of evolution would inevitably weaken any type of faith.

I worry about surrendering one of the few weapons a minority has in its fight for recognition in our society, but I think there is some interesting truth to these ideas. Maybe one of the things we need to do is stop thinking like an oppressed minority that needs court protection and flex our muscles a bit more, and perhaps even turn it all around and treat the fundamentalists as the minority. Although I'm actually more inclined to think we should continue the fight in the courts in addition to increasing our visibility in other venues.

3. Which leads into another idea that I, personally, find very compelling, but know from interactions with other members of the pro-evolution camp will encounter strong opposition from our own side: We need to assert secularism in public life more.

Seculars may fight the religious right at the ballot box today, but most do remarkably little to fight them in the spiritual realm of peoples day-to-day lives. Partly it is the complacency of insular secular worlds where they often just can't believe people actually believe in creation science, so they don't think it deserves a serious debate.

But what is clear is that we need more than mobilization at the ballot box; we need to take the fight for the free thought to the steets and pews of the country, much as has been done in response to each upsurge of orthodoxy in our history.

Now if pressing our case in the courts is triggering a backlash, I worry that aggressive proponents of the agnostic/atheist/secular might be even more threatening, and Newman doesn't try to address this contradiction…but hey, my readers know me. Yes, let's loose the godless firebrands!

He also touches on something that irks me: the idea that religion and science should be compatible. They aren't, they really aren't. Religion can make itself compatible by adopting a very abstract position, the idea of a largely non-interventionist, watchmaker god, but that isn't the kind of religion that is causing us trouble, and it's not the kind of religion our leaders and the public are imagining.

Secularists often spend their time talking about the compatibility of religious beliefs with secular rules in order to justify the legal basis of those court decisions. Which weakens those secularists in the cultural realm to directly confront religious fundamentalists to say their beliefs aren't compatible with science. What is striking in reading Freethinkers is how vibrant public debate was in the 19th century over these core issues of religious truth.

America was never the religious theocracy imagined by the religious right, but the important changes in social values in our society have come not from court rules but from a vibrant democratic debate. We need to continue that tradition of democratic mobilization on secular values and abandon the elite crutch of the courts.

I agree, but see one problem: where is the vigorous, loud spokesperson for freethought in America who can do all this for us? Ingersoll is long gone, and I've noticed a tendency in pro-evolution arguments to instead emphasize the compatibility of religion and science, and to promote rational religious people as our representatives; atheists should stay in their closets and be very, very quiet, lest they scare off the skittish Christians we want to join us.

What we need is to clearly declare our fellowship with the reasonable theists who believe in reason and science, and at the same time be willing to proudly acknowledge our affiliation with the community of atheists and agnostics. That isn't said often enough, and all too often there is a sense that the atheists among us (Dawkins, for instance) are a detriment to the cause of good science and evolution. That is killing us. It reinforces the bias of the religious that atheism is something shameful. After all, if we can't be proud of ourselves, why should they be?


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Comments:
#13762: — 01/19  at  02:45 PM
Good points, G-Do.

Q “Who are these elitists to tell us what science is?”

A They are the same "elitists" you'll beg to testify for you in court when your unborn child is killed because your doctor gave you the wrong drug.

And fyi, worrying about avoiding this "elitist" charge is a waste of time unless you are actually trying to field a candidate or speaker and you want to avoid someone who looks or sounds elitist, e.g., a refined British accent is unhelpful but a Southern one is golden.

Many of the rubes who buy into the creationist script believe that anyone who has an undergraduate degree and doesn't praise God every other sentence is an elitist. There is nothing that can be done.

G-do also writes

Our opponents are mischaracterizing us by conflating us with the image of the lazy, wealthy, foolish, morally bankrupt liberal bureaucrat - a common figure in right wing culture. We can block this easily by saying “but I work my ass off.”

When arguing with evangelical creationist apologists it is useful to point out, after informing them that they have been taken for a sucker by the ID peddlers, that the position of the ID peddlers boils down essentially to a gigantic "Fxxx you" to the thousands upon thousands of hard working scientists -- including many Christians -- who dedicated their lives over the past century to providing us all with a greater understanding of biological processes that are common to all life forms, including humans. What entitles this microscopic community of charlatans to use public schools as a platform from which to pronounce the rest of the world's scientists as frauds who have wasted their lives trying to find natural explanations for diseases such as childhood leukemia and muscular dystrophy?



#13763: DarkSyde — 01/19  at  02:49 PM
Nathan you have to think of the DI as an advertising firm and IDCists as their 'client' who's hired them to market IDC. They're not the slightest bit motivated to present quality information. They're all about soundbites, sizzle, and misleading their Christian victims. In this case they're conflating the colloquial definition of the term theory, with the scientific one, and they're confusing the fact of common descent with theoretical evolutionary mechanisms to boot. The idea behind the sticker isn't to enhance scientific knowledge but to restrict it. 'Teach the conroversy' and 'critical thinking' are other examples of sound bites and slogans. There is no controversy outside of what they fabricate, and the last thing they want is critical thinking.



#13764: — 01/19  at  02:55 PM
"But it’s hard to treat a call for critical thinking as the establishment of theocracy."

It's not a call for critical thinking at all though, but rather an attempt to cast FUD on the specific subject of evolution. If the board had put a sticker in saying that all science is provisional and subject to revision, that certainly would have passed the establishment clause smell test.



#13765: — 01/19  at  02:57 PM
Nathan Newman

But it’s hard to treat a call for critical thinking as the establishment of theocracy."

Why does sticker "calling for critical thinking" only appear in biology textbooks, Nathan?

Try answering that question without repeating a myth and without mentioning religion. Good luck.

Also, I notice you pretending that the test for violation of the establishment clause is whether an action "establishes a theocracy". Interestingly, that is how creationists like to interpret the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. Once again, I remain mystified by your claim that you have been paying attention to this issue for "years."



#13767: — 01/19  at  03:02 PM
'That sentence is literally true, just as any theoretical explanation of myriad measured facts is always a theory.'

It was not literally a true sentence. Evolution IS A FACT. It is a theory and a FACT. Hence the sticker doesn't pass the stink test and should be removed.



#13768: — 01/19  at  03:03 PM
Hank -

You are making sense. And, the Democratic party will have some big decisions to make in the near future.

This past year, Democrats tried very hard to not "rock the boat" - by keeping a relatively low profile, and hoping to not "scare away" any reasonable undecided voters.

So, what's the next step?

Last year, the Democrats did receive a large number of popular votes.

Maybe the current strategy is working well, and maybe each year a few more reasonable undecided voters will choose to join the side of truth and justice. Maybe this country can overcome their obsession with bigotry and ancient beliefs and false worlds.

Or, maybe the religious right will continue to grow and receive strength in numbers - if only through there ignorant lies on behalf of God. If this is the case, we must alter our strategies.

Unfortunately, it may be too soon to tell which way we should go.

Maybe after another 4 years (8 or 12?) of blatant hypocrisy, intolerance, and FAILURE, the "moral" right will learn that a church probably shouldn't run the country.

But, you're right. We must take care not to wait too long before we take appropriate action.

Freedom isn't easy to earn, or keep. It's probably just as difficult to get back once it's gone.

Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

-Jerry Garcia



#13770: — 01/19  at  03:16 PM
If it wasn't for 9/11, Bush would have never been able to get away with a war in Iraq. When the cultural half-life of 9/11 is passed, so will the current Republican political ascendency. All the rest, the moral values, the economy, etc. is just so much noise in comparison.



#13772: — 01/19  at  03:25 PM
Have ID put up or shut up. Set up a public "survivor" contest
to solve some biological issue, allocate public funds to an ID based
"clan" and an evo/devo based "clan", and see who can solve the
problem, making the results open for public access.

NASA's atrobiology department has a fiscal year budget of $71 million. Astrobiology is the the only science without a subject matter, and ID is a subject matter without science, so allocate some of the budget to solve a biological problem.

If ID is not science, then it should fail miserably. Vote it out.
Public failure would be the best way to make ID go away.

If ID wins, well maybe it should be looked at.

There's plenty of problems to solve: HIV, cancer, maleria.
It's a win/win situation. Astrobiology gets publicity and a purpose.
A problem gets solved, and the ID controversity goes away.

ID becomes the alchemy of the 21st century, or an accepted science.



#13773: — 01/19  at  03:26 PM
"When the cultural half-life of 9/11 is passed, so will the current Republican political ascendency."

And then the time will be ripe for the fading Republican administration to ignore another memo about some nutcase determined to attack inside the United States. Maybe this time it'll be some Iraqi woman who lost her mind when she saw her family "accidentally" killed by US soldiers.



#13774: — 01/19  at  03:31 PM
"If ID is not science, then it should fail miserably. Vote it out."

It's already been Federally funded and it failed miserably. The test was whether third parties praying to mysterious intelligent alien beings (for whom their is no evidence) had an effect on patient recovery.

Answer: no, unless you help the mysterious alien beings by cooking the data.



#13775: — 01/19  at  03:43 PM
PZ wrote...

"A science-friendly god is a god-of-the-gaps, which to me is pretty much no god at all."

Hmmm...if you took a poll of religious people who are also scientists and asked them if they relegate their god's existence to the gaps in scientific understanding, I bet you would find few who would say that they do. On the other hand, such a relegation seems precisely what IDCism is all about. It seems to me that your assumption about what god must be like for a religious person who also understands science doesn't do anyone, except perhaps an IDCist, any good.



#13777: — 01/19  at  03:46 PM
MAB, the only problem with your example is that everyone is still saying prayer helps patients recover. This fiction has entered the public consciousness as fact and it hasn't been dislodged. It's just too touchy-feel-goody for Readers Digest readers to let go of.



#13780: — 01/19  at  03:54 PM
...allocate public funds to an ID based “clan” and an evo/devo based “clan”, and see who can solve the problem, making the results open for public access.

See who can solve the problem?

The "ID 'theory'" clan has already solved the multitude of problems facing science today. The massively encompassing article was just published yesterday! Please refer to God et al.

In reality, this "contest" is played out everyday in research laboratories across the world.

Noteworthy, is that the IDists haven't once even shown up to practice, let alone for the big game.

Science, on the whole, has done just fine without their competition. Why? Because we have our own competition - that of other reputable scientists.

Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

-Jerry Garcia



#13781: — 01/19  at  03:55 PM
Mark

Well, let's wedge the un-efficacy of third party prayer into our public education program. That is actually a fantastic example of the unfortunate consequences of sticking religion where it doesn't belong. Not only was it a huge waste of money but at the end of the day we end up confirming what some of us already knew but a lot folks were just afraid of: third party prayer has no measurable effects on patient outcome.

It's the same sort of effect this "ID theory" garbage is going to have. The only way it can ever be taught and still pass the constitutional test is if the whole story about "ID theory" is taught, including the story of its peddlers. It's not a flattering story. It's certainly not flattering to the Johnsonite Christians, arguably contemporary Christianity's weakest and most troubled sect.



#13782: — 01/19  at  04:00 PM
Let’s look at this from the perspective of the people who provide the “movement” in the “ID Movement”—-the parents. As long as some of the most outspoken defenders of evolution also happen to be outspoken atheists (e.g. Gould, Dawkins), the perception among parents of school-aged children will be that if evolution is taught unopposed and is taught “as fact”, their innocent, God-fearing, Bible-believing children are at risk of becoming “evolutionists” and thus, atheists.

Whether or not IDC is scientifically valid or religiously motivated doesn’t matter to them. They’re fighting for the souls of their children, so anything goes. They’ll vote in pro-IDC board members, circulate petitions to bring IDC into the classrooms, and engage in any number of other activities to save their kids from being “indoctrinated” into the atheistic, materialist “worldview”.

So while the facts are on our side, and yes, that is the main reason our side will eventually prevail—-general public acceptance of teaching the mainstream scientific view of evolution will likely be fueled by theists who can take these facts and present them in such a way that shows one can be an “evolutionist” and still achieve eternal salvation. I believe this will first take place when Christian mainstream scientists open dialogue with religious leaders, who will then present this view to their followers.

Lastly, as far as whether we argue against IDC by saying “It’s not science” vs. “It’s religiously motivated”—it depends on the arena and who you are. When debating IDCists in public or on the internet, do both. When testifying before school boards, if you’re a scientist, really pound the “It’s not science” aspect but think about summarizing by pointing out how religious motivations will lose in court. When filing a court document and making a case before the court, “It’s religiously motivated” is the strongest argument to make, with pepperings of “It’s not science” scattered throughout.



#13783: — 01/19  at  04:03 PM
PZ wrote..."What we need is to clearly declare our fellowship with the reasonable theists who believe in reason and science, and at the same time be willing to proudly acknowledge our affiliation with the community of atheists and agnostics."

I want to acknowledge the former part of what you said in this statement but only suggest that your fellowship will be harder to support if in doing the latter you are also prone to taking pot shots at caricature's of what you assume the reasonable theist's god to be like.



's avatar #13788: PZ Myers — 01/19  at  04:51 PM
The only possible reconciliation is if the theists are allowed to believe that I'm going to burn in hell, while I'm allowed to think that they are bowing to an anthropomorphized version of their own ignorance. Get real; I don't respect theism, so why should I pretend to find good sense in the myths of po-faced worshippers of bearded sky-gods?

I don't really care if some poll shows that most christians don't think their deity is a god-of-the-gaps. I'll listen to their protestations otherwise when they bring up some real evidence that he is something else.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#13794: — 01/19  at  06:40 PM
MAB:

Thanks, but I can't agree with this:

...worrying about avoiding this “elitist” charge is a waste of time unless...

Just because someone doesn't seem elitist to you or me doesn't mean he can't be made to seem elitist, given a certain cultural perspective. The pundits of the right actively employ this language to appeal to their audience's sense of cultural and political disenfranchisement. The use of the word "elitist" conjures up the image of the classical figure of disenfranchisement: the career bureaucrat, lazy and distant from his subjects.

We must constantly remind the public that the biologist is a kind of soldier: he spends his life on the wall of the academy, toiling against age, disease, madness, and the petty discomforts of mortality. He asks for neither thanks nor riches, and for his work he expects only criticism. He does it for the sake of his fellow men, because they have other things to do. He does it because he is suited to it, because the job occupies his mind so that he can't ignore it. He does it ultimately because it helps people. Anyone who has lost a loved one to disease can be made to at least respect this.

<I>Many of the rubes who buy into the creationist script believe that anyone who has an undergraduate degree and doesn’t praise God every other sentence is an elitist. There is nothing that can be done.</I>

I think this is a little premature. When a scientist calls a Christian a rube, tells him he's been duped, then throws his hands up in the air and leaves, that sends a very clear, if misinterpreted, message: "I have given up on you. I don't care about you. I'm smarter than you, I have a better background than you, and I am going to beat you by going over your head." This attitude reinforces the "scientist-as-elitist" meme and engenders all sorts of bad politics. Rather, stick around and listen to what these people have to say, then regretfully disagree (or, try something else - the point is that giving up is not an option).

Now, that doesn't mean we shouldn't attack the ID advocates. Quite to the contrary, we should go after them, guns blazing, pointing out fraud after fraud after fraud, but also insisting that laymen simply don't have the background to know better (and that there's no shame in it). There's no quicker way to lose your audience than to convince them they've made fools of themselves.

And as to your last point, I agree completely. Right after the "scientist-as-soldier" meme, lay it on thick with the idea that ID advocates are stabbing us in the back. "Hundreds of paleontologists have worked their fingers and brains to the nub, trying to figure out how all these puzzle pieces fit together, and hundreds of biologists have used the evolutionary assumptions in designing therapies and investigating living systems, and you want us to just throw all that work away? Look, maybe there are problems with the theory, but people, you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater!" That resonates with anyone who has done a bit of hard work in his life, and especially with someone who values hard work as a part of his cultural identity.

Since we're talking about tactics used to reach Christians who don't want to hear it:

Suppose that you're trying to get a Christian to respect you. The first step is to show that he benefits from the effect of your existence, even if your motives are alien to him. The second step is to demonstrate that he places an interpretative filter on scripture (any thinking Christian must do this in order to iron out the paradoxes). Pointing out the element of freedom in interpreting scripture inevitably leads to the next question: if I can choose bits of scripture, why not choose other scriptures?

In this way, the seeds of doubt can be planted in even the most intransigent fundamentalist mind. They sometimes take years to flourish, of course, and they sometimes fail, but no one ever said science was quick or easy.



#13795: — 01/19  at  06:41 PM
It seems to me that the central conflict between the scientific and Christian frameworks is that both attempt to explain all observable phenomena. The Catholic Church has been paying boatloads of theologians for centuries to sit and think about how to synch the developing world with the Christian "world-view." When the assumption that Christianity can explain-it-all is depopularized, Christian-heathen relations will relax.



's avatar #13797: PZ Myers — 01/19  at  07:31 PM
You forgot to mention the ultimate source of the conflict: science has been successful at explaining the world, while religion has been an abject failure for millennia. It's sour grapes.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#13809: Jan Theodore Galkowski — 01/19  at  09:23 PM
Second, we should consider mandatory religion class in every public high school in America. Cover Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, and everything else still worshipped today. Examine also how religious sentiment influences social policy, and whether this is a good, bad, avoidable, or unavoidable thing.

Actually that's already done here in New York, as part of the Global Studies curriculum.

While I very much agree atheism should be an option, what I think people need to get real about is that proposing it outright is very much a political non-starter and has been as long as there has been a United States. Lincoln left his religious beliefs ambiguous so everyone might impugn him with Christian affiliation, and he did show up at church with his wife, but he was at best a Deist in the classical sense. That may not be how it should be, but it's a fact.

For that matter, the ancient Hellenes didn't respect atheists either, as tolerant of religious practices as they were, far more than we are, I would say. Wasn't that one of the accusations against Socrates?

You forgot to mention the ultimate source of the conflict: science has been successful at explaining the world, while religion has been an abject failure for millennia.

The trouble, PZ, is that most people aren't driven to explain the world. They want emotional contentment. That shouldn't be a surprise. We're hormonal beings, not just rational ones, and I think our limbic region is one of the most important. It's a wonder we can do as much that's rational as we can, truly, and that may be why most folk find math and detailed logic so hard: "I can't do math".

Religion addresses the emotional and, while it does so less for me than it used to, I know many really bright and talented and skeptical people who are deeply committed to certain ritual practices. It's gotta be the emotions. It's like sitting around a campfire in the dead of winter and hearing sagas sung of the great warriors of the past.



's avatar #13810: PZ Myers — 01/19  at  09:43 PM
"Political non-starter?" There you go, reflexively putting down a minority viewpoint and not even giving it a chance. That's the problem, giving up before we even start, assuming that because people shut their minds at any exposure to atheism that there is no way to overcome their resistance.

You make another assumption: who says you can't get emotional contentment from the secular universe? I find old collections of superstitious lies provide absolutely no emotional satisfaction at all, but digging into the real world, seeing what's actually happening, is far more enjoyable. Atheists aren't sitting around with their brains ticking over like little calculators. We're experiencing joy and exhilaration and contentment -- we're just not getting there by lying to ourselves.

And yeah, that's what they killed Socrates for, atheism and the corruption of the youth of Athens.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#13904: — 01/20  at  03:19 PM
PZ writes

"Atheists aren’t sitting around with their brains ticking over like little calculators. We’re experiencing joy and exhilaration and contentment — we’re just not getting there by lying to ourselves."

So true, PZ, and well worth repeating. The bottom line is that the differences between atheists and theists are actually very tiny compared to our similarities. That's why all the theists continually bring up this garbage about "different worldviews."

Put that in your lesson book, by the way: never use the term "worldview" without putting it in quotes. The "worldview" dialogue is inherently divisive, just like the evangelicals want it to be. Don't go there.

All human beings share the same "worldview". We all live on the same planet. We all need food and air and water. We all seek some sort of pleasure and we all avoid painful accidents. And we use our senses, experience and empirical reasons to achieve those goals and satisfy those needs.

Beliefs in "deities" and "holy books" is just the way that some humans choose to pleasure themselves, and it's easy to understand why they do it. And its easy to understand why they want everyone to think the same way they do.

Why is it easy to understand that, even if one is an atheist? Because we're all human beings.

Importantly, however, the fundamentalists must engage in a hypocracy of sorts where they pretend that they have a different "worldview". That is a big mistake. Pretending that empirical knowledge is good for getting through 99.9% of one's life but that it isn't useful for understanding biological questions is desperately hypocritical. It's willful ignorance. And the smell is obvious.



#13927: Lorenzo — 01/20  at  07:37 PM
The theory of evolution is useful. By utilizing it, people are able to breed improved farm animals, graft and hybridize plants, and make other advances in agriculture and horticulture. Intelligent Design certainly could explain how animals develop distinct breeds or even distinct species by an arbitrary exercise of divine will, but it cannot be used by people to breed improved farm animals, hybridize plants, or for any other purposes. God, after all, is not beholden to man's desire. So, while Intelligent Design is certainly internally consistent, it doesn't lend itself to any scientific understanding of the world, or to an engineered approach to changing it.

When the rubber meets the road, the test of science is "can it be used to produce something?" This is the engineering test.

Can you engineer something with God, the force behind Intelligent Design? I don't think you can. I don't see why most people would want to. Religious people would think of it as blasphemous; atheists would think of it as futile; people who believe in witchcraft and magical spells would think it possible, but I don't think Cobb County is full of wiccans and practicing sorcerors.

Summing up, here's my question for ID proponents.

Q: Why would you want to change your religion into a science? Is that a satisfying prospect?



#13948: — 01/21  at  10:16 AM
PZ, it seems to me that we are talking past one another. Here's why I think it matters...as long as your rhetoric conflates thinking scientifically (e.g. evolutionary theory) with atheism (an association with no logical basis, imo, other than a trivial consistency), you will continue to do no more than to confirm the falacious assumption that the two are necessarily linked in the minds of the theistically motivated anti-science (e.g. IDCist) public. When you do that, any scientific argument you offer is heard as so much anti-theistic propaganda.

An alternative, it seems to me, would be to stand together with scientists without regard to or diparagement of their theistic posture in support of the science. If you feel motivated to spread the good word about atheism, take care to do it in venue's that have nothing to do with science since science has exactly zero to say (by methodological necessity) about the objects of theistic belief or faith. Unappologetically identifying youself as an atheist is one thing, but conflating an anti-theistic posture with scientific thinking is another

Having said that, it is certainly true that scientists who are also theists need to publically speak out against ant-science threats like IDCism while unappologetically identifying themselves as theists. The anti-science theists need to be confronted with the fact of their existence. They need to speak out boldly in their respective religious cicles and in contexts like school board hearings, etc. It has to be grass roots and in the face of the theistic public on their own turf. People like Ken Miller can't do it alone from the top; it has to be bottom up.

As a concluding question, why would you want to conflate an anti-theistic posture with the work you do as a scientist? Given the public and political process in which the struggle takes place, doing so seems only likely to be counter productive.



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