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Friday, March 12, 2004

A straightforward example of creationist error

A creationist, Rob McEwen, left me a little comment here which lists a number of his objections to evolution. It’s a classic example of the genre, and well illustrates the problem we have. The poor fellow has been grossly misinformed, but is utterly convinced that he has the truth. I’m not going to dismantle his entire line of blather (thanks to Loren Petrich, who has already briefly pointed out the flaws in his thinking), but I do want to show what I mean with one example.

Here’s what Mr McEwen says:


Mutations have NEVER produced additional DNA structures. NEVER! Even as scientists study mutations in fruit flies or viruses… the mutations sometime just scramble existing DNA… but MORE OFTEN, they DELETE DNA structures. Certainly, “survival of the fittest” is a means by which nature purges the gene pool of bad mutations, but NO evolution occurs here. (This alone is a DEATH BLOW to Evolution.) I repeat… not a SINGLE scientist in the entire world has EVER recorded a mutation which produced additional DNA structures or material.... but DELETIONS are recorded ALL THE TIME!!!

Wow. He certainly is emphatic, isn’t he?

And here’s the scary thing: for all his certainty, which he almost certainly got from common sources in the creationist literature, he is absurdly, absolutely, trivially, unforgivably wrong.  That paragraph is one solid block of lies. This is what biologists have to deal with all the time, people who rant falsehoods, either out of maliciousness or simple purblind ignorance, and the mobs of people who gullibly believe them.

The truth is that many kinds of mutations very commonly produce additional DNA structures. One very common and frequently observed method is unequal crossing over. Anyone with a little background in genetics or cell biology will be familiar with the idea of crossing over: during meiosis, homologous chromosomes line up side by side, and swap bits of their DNA at points of contact called chiasmata. Here’s what they look like:

chiasmata

Normally, crossing over occurs between homologous regions of DNA, so there is no net gain or loss of DNA in either chromosome. However, it can occur by error between nonhomologous regions. When that happens, you do get a loss of DNA in one chromosome, and a gain in the other. Take a look at this diagram, which illustrates what goes on in an unequal crossing over event:


unequal crossing over

As you can see, the end result is that chromosome number 2 has suffered a deletion and has no copies of gene C, while chromosome 3 has gained an extra copy of gene C. Quite contrary to Mr McEwen, every unequal crossing over event produces an equal number of gametes bearing duplications and deletions. If gene C is essential, however, the gamete bearing a deletion is unlikely to be viable, while the duplication may have no or little effect; in viable progeny, therefore, you are more likely to see duplications than deletions.

There are also additional well-documented mechanisms that can produce additional DNA, such as insertions and translocations. People design experiments all the time that make use of duplications. We can sequence the relevant region of the chromosome and explicitly identify duplicated stretches of DNA. You can open up catalogs of mutations and find long lists of lines that carry identified duplications; you can even send a little money to a stock center and they’ll send you back flies or fish or mice that carry such mutations.

I went to the Flybase database, for instance, and did a search for any duplicated alleles. It came back with a long list of them, and here is just the first one, an allele called abd-AUab-G1, which happens to be a Hox gene in the bithorax complex. Here’s the short description.


Head to head duplication of the starting P{(-FRT)lacZ.HP}UbxHC148A element, so that two copies (P{(-FRT)lacZ.HP}UbxHC148A and P{(-FRT)lacZ.HP}abd-AUab-G1) are present in abd-AUab-G1. (Bender and Fitzgerald, 2002)

You want the full citation so you can go look up the details in the peer-reviewed scientific literature? Yeah, we can do that:

Bender and Fitzgerald (2002) Transcription activates repressed domains in the Drosophila bithorax complex. Development 129(21): 4923-4930.

Let me remind you what Mr McEwen claimed. “Mutations have NEVER produced additional DNA structures. NEVER!” Well, that’s certainly not true, is it? How about his claim that “not a SINGLE scientist in the entire world has EVER recorded a mutation which produced additional DNA structures or material”? I think I certainly have shown that scientists have recorded such things. Want a few thousand more? I wonder if Mr McEwen even realizes that when he says such things to a scientist, the first thing that pops into their heads is a plethora of counter-examples and trivial mechanisms that trivially refute all of his points without even a moment’s hesitation...

I wouldn’t be at all surprised to learn that Mr McEwen is a decent, sincere person in addition to being a fervent believer in his religious dogma. However, he has been consistently misled. His sources have lied to him. And he is working hard to propagate those same lies to more people. That’s the real tragedy of creationism, that it is a fabric of outright dishonesty that persuades good people to do wrong, all in the name of their religion.


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Comments:
#1071: — 03/16  at  01:30 AM
(Rob McEwen's continuing to get worked up over Haeckel's infamous embryo drawings...)

Why continue to bark up the wrong tree?

Rob McEwen:
he more well-thought-out creationists web sites I have seen which speculate about which kind or kinds the Felidae descended from consider that the Felidae classification is actually a combination or grouping together what really should have been separated into (at least) two distinctly different lines descended from (at least) two kinds.

Which ones? I've never seen any creationists claim that -- they usually claim that Felidae is one, not two created kinds.

As mentioned earlier, the overwhelming majority of mutations delete or detrimentally scramble genetic information.

Demonstrably false. A large fraction of mutations is selectively *neutral*. And large numbers of "good" mutations are not necessary. Even one can be made more abundant by natural selection.

Therefore, the few mutations that do add material are so rare and limited in scope that it would take too long to get enough of these to go from single-celled organism to human with a handful of Billions of years (probably not even possible with unlimited time).

I wonder if Rob McEwen has seriously read PZ Myers's comments earlier in this thread -- there is lots of evidence of addition of genetic material.

Polyploidy is very common in plants; among animals, it is less common. But early vertebrates had two genome duplications, and teleost fish have had a third one.

Also, what "gaps" exist in the fossil record?

As to irreducible complexity, I disagree that it is unevolvable.



#1072: — 03/16  at  10:54 AM
A Straightforward Example of Evolutionist Faith

L. Petrich wrote:

"...I think that that the concept of abiogenesis is fundamentally sound."

You think?!

You BELIEEEEEEVE?!

Can you PROVE that abiogenesis occurred?

Can I get an AMEN?



's avatar #1073: PZ Myers — 03/16  at  11:35 AM
Unless you happen to be one of those strange people who believe that the universe has always existed, and that life is eternal and never had a beginning, I think that on purely logical grounds that abiogenesis is necessary and certainly is a sound concept.

The really bizarre example of logical dissonance is exhibited by those creationists who rant about a "law" that says all life must come from other life, and therefore evolution is disproven...never considering that if that law were really valid, it would also disprove the book of Genesis to the same degree.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#1074: — 03/16  at  12:49 PM
I'm not sure what Eric Baker wants, short of going back in a time machine and watching it happen.



#1075: — 03/16  at  02:09 PM
Can you PROVE that abiogenesis occurred?

"Unless you happen to be one of those strange people who believe that the universe has always existed, and that life is eternal and never had a beginning, I think that on purely logical grounds that abiogenesis is necessary and certainly is a sound concept.

The really bizarre example of logical dissonance is exhibited by those creationists who rant about a “law” that says all life must come from other life, and therefore evolution is disproven...never considering that if that law were really valid, it would also disprove the book of Genesis to the same degree."


Is that a "no"?





#1076: — 03/16  at  02:42 PM
"I’m not sure what Eric Baker wants, short of going back in a time machine and watching it happen."

Some proof to accompany your conviction might be nice. In the absence of such, abiogenesis remains a testament of your faith.



's avatar #1077: PZ Myers — 03/16  at  02:50 PM
Mr Baker: you seem to have a problem with reading comprehension.

One answer is no: scientists don't deal in proof, and we do not talk of "proving" things true.

Another, better answer is that yes, we certainly accept that abiogenesis occurred. The earth has a definite beginning, 4.5 billion years ago, at which time there was no life present. Later, life appeared. Abiogenesis happened. Get over it.

The point of my earlier comment was that creationists also accept abiogenesis. The difference is that they think a supernatural being poofed life into existence. I suspect that other, natural processes started the whole business, and think that the fact that biology is chemistry write large and baroque is sufficient evidence.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#1078: — 03/16  at  04:43 PM
Speaking of abiogenesis...

A synthetic self-replicating molecule.

A synthetic peptide that reproduces in such a way that either left-handed-only or right-handed-only constructs predominate -- mixed constructs get out-reproduced.



#1079: — 03/17  at  09:23 AM
Eric Baker:

Try to be more humble. For example, there are many questions and challenges raised in this post by the evolutionists which have not yet been answered. It cheapens the dialog when, after our side scores a few points, you act like we've already won the game... but if you insist on participating, please do score some REAL points yourself. (Also, lets make every post count. I don't want to lose their attention by wasting their time.)

EVERYONE:

Loren Petrich asked:

Also, what “gaps” exist in the fossil record?

Related to this question, the following is an excerpt from my original post on the other thread:

the science of evolution has degenerated into a pseudo-science. Unlike REAL science, it fails to make risky predictions. For example, Darwin did make risky predictions about what the fossil record would look like after more digging is done… and these predictions failed!

Therefore, I will now back up my statement and answer Loren Petrich's question at the same time.

Darwin himself wrote:

The number of intermediate varieties which have formerly existed on earth must be truly enormous. Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps is the most obvious and serious objection which can be urged against the theory. The explanation lies, as I believe, in the extreme imperfection of the geological record?

(from Origin of Species, emphasis added)

Darwin was convinced that the ONLY reason that the fossil record had such huge gaps was because we hadn't done enough digging at that time. Fair enough. But he DID make a risky prediction about the fossil record for the future. These statements are summarized by Darwin as follows:

The geological record is extremely imperfect and this fact will to a large extent explain why we do not find interminable varieties, connecting together all the extinct and existing forms of life by the finest graduated steps. He who rejects these views on the nature of the geological record, will rightly reject my whole theory
(emphasis added)

Darwin is correct in saying "truly enormous" because, since evolution depends on mutations with natural selection, it is a VERY SLOW process which requires, by definition, imperceptibly different and enormous amounts of transitional creatures. The "law of averages" allows only so much concentration of particular creatures in the fossil record at the exclusion of others... for the same reason that scientists a thousand years from now will never accept the theory that a "1" existed in a deck of cards but simply hasn't been found in the records.

Therefore, what is the current state of the fossil record today? According to Darwin, if a century of digging does NOT produce "enormous" quantities of "finely graduated" "interminable varieties", then it would be "right" to reject his theory.

Stephen Jay Gould, Professor of Geology and Zoology at Harvard University stated:

The history of most fossil species include two features particularly inconsistent with gradualism: 1) Stasis - most species exhibit no directional change during their tenure on earth. They appear in the fossil record looking much the same as when they disappear; morphological change is usually limited and directionless; 2) Sudden appearance - in any local area, a species does not arise gradually by the steady transformation of its ancestors; it appears all at once and 'fully formed'

(This problem is the very reason that "punctuated equilibrium" was "thought up" in the first place!)

The Gould quote is the tip of the iceberg.

Many more quotes like this can be found here and here

The few times that there is some proof of adaptation, it appears in "clusters", with HUGE gaps between these clusters. In other words, the adaptation doesn’t span these gaps and is rather limited in scope.

Also, diagrams which compare the actual fossil record to what the fossil record would have looked like if evolution occurred can be found here and here.

The diagrams of what actually happened display a PERFECT fit for the creation/speciation model.



#1080: — 03/17  at  10:59 AM
Carefully selecting quotes to support one's position may be OK when interpreting one's favorite sacred books, but that is not considered legitimate scientific argumentation.

Stephen Jay Gould's position is that species-to-species intermediates may be hard to find, but at higher levels, there are numerous intermediates. Simply consider groups with well-preserved fossils like horses, cetaceans, etc. Check out Prothero's nice article on Punctuated Equilibrium.

And if the ancestors of each species or each "created kind" are specially created, they must be specially created over geological time, NOT all at once.

Furthermore, this argument from apparent discontinuity causes trouble for the hypothesis of multi-species "created kinds"; why are apparent discontinuities in the fossil record bridgable for some species and not for others?



#1081: — 03/17  at  01:24 PM
Loren Petrich,

I really enjoyed reading the article you listed in your last post. It does a great job of supporting many of the points I made in my last post. ("thank you for proving my point")

I encourage everyone to read the whole thing. (Especially to prove that none of my quotes from this article are taken out of context).

Here are some excerpts:

The few supposed examples of gradual evolution were featured in the journals and textbooks, but paleontologists had long been mum about their "dirty little trade secret:" most species appear suddenly in the fossil record and show no appreciable change for millions of years until their extinction.
...
As paleontologists had known for over a century, most species are stable for millions of years, and change so rapidly that we rarely witness it in the fossil record.
...
More impressive are demonstrations of species stability in spite of well documented environmental change.

The article goes on to solve these problems in three basic ways:

(1) Uses a twist on Speciation

(As I described in a previous post, to a large degree, creationists like myself ALREADY agree that Speciation happened, but don't think that this proves evolution).

This "twist" is that a population separates into two groups. Next, one of these separated populations "evolves". (We creationists would argue that the separates population "devolves"... as most mutations... other than neutral mutations... usually delete or detrimentally scramble genes). Here is the juicy part: To account for the fossil record problems, the particular population that evolved HAPPENS to do so in an area less conducive to providing fossils. Next, (and I don't know if this part was necessary) the original population dies out.

While it is certainly possible that speciation could possibly work in such a fashion every once in a while, the Evolutionists NEEDS this to happen almost all the time. But, the "law of averages" would prevent applying this scenario to such an extremely large percentage of situations. In fact, it is outside the realm of possibility that this scenario could account for more than a small percentage of the huge gaping holes in the fossil record. (See charts that I linked to in my earlier post.)

(2) The second thing this article does is: Assumes that "Speciation" IS "Evolution" and tries to blur the distinctions

This reminds me of Loren Petrich's post earlier in this thread where he said:

Claiming that 'evolution inside a created kind is not really evolution' is pure hooey. Evolution, by any other name, is still evolution. And evolution from an ancestor of a putative kind is not necessarily subtractive—it can be additive.

But these things gloss over many fundamentals of speciation. Mainly that, as described earlier, speciation is MOSTLY the result of lost or damaged genes. This is more consistent with molecular biology because, as Dr. Lee Spetner proves, mutations which delete or scramble DNA are MUCH more prevalent that those few which add material to DNA (which are also limited in scope). While "goo" to "you" evolution REQUIRES mutations to ADD information, the Genesis account fits better with creation starting out as "perfect" and then degenerating from there.

Furthermore, the rapid rates that "evolution" occurs in under the "punctuated equilibrium" model are a better fit for Speciation through deleting/scrambling mutations. Think about it... if, to reconcile with the fossil record... scientists start entertaining theories where evolution occurred "rapidly" (relatively speaking, of course)... then, where changes did occur, these are better explained by deleting/scrambling mutations because additive mutations are too rare and too limited in scope to get the job done quickly.

I must clarify that the speciation I refer to which is demonstrated in the fossil record is still very limited in scope... doesn't go from whale to cow, for example... but would explain how a horse and zebra (which CAN mate, BTW) probably descended from a common ancestor.

For a list of links about Speciation, as described by creationists, go here. One of the more interesting of these links is the following: Ligers and wholphins? What next?

(3) The third and final thing that the article does... it gets desperate and starts philosophizing or hypothesizing as shown below:

Still others suggest that there might be properties of species that may not have been discovered yet by geneticists and evolutionary biologists, properties which operate on scales of millions of generations and years
...
Clearly, all of evolutionary biology is undergoing ferment and change.

Obvious, science is ALWAYS undergoing change... but I think that they are grasping for something more substantial than a little teaking (Actually, this is an understatement!).

Clearly, they have ruled out the creationist model BEFORE considering the evidence pro/con... How do I know this? Well, its very telling that the fossil record fits the creationist model so well, yet the evolutionists continue doing such back-flips and hypothesizing to force fit the fossil record to evolution model.



#1082: — 03/17  at  01:52 PM
Even if it is correct that the large majority of mutations are "bad", that is totally irrelevant. Most organisms can easily out-reproduce their carrying capacity, and those with defective genes will usually not be represented in later generations.

A well-fed Escherichia coli bacterium can divide every 10 minutes, producing two bacteria. Although this bacterium weighs only about 2 picograms, nearly 24 hours of nonstop division will produce an Earth mass of bacteria!



#1083: — 03/17  at  02:31 PM
oops, I said in my last post:

Especially to prove that none of my quotes from this article are taken out of context

I meant:
Especially to prove that none of my quotes from this article are not taken out of context

(I guess you figured what I meant).

I recall Dr. Lee Spetner, (who has a PhD degree in physics from MIT, btw... not that this counts for anything. I'm sure you can produce pro-evolutionist with impressive credentials... just want to be sure that readers of this don't blow Spetner off) ... I recall that Spetner studied these types of rapidly multiplying organisms for over a decade. No additive mutations were OBSERVED (or, if I'm wrong, very, very few were OBSERVED). But, MANY deleting or scrambling mutations were OBSERVED.

Still, you make a good point about bad mutations being eliminated through natural selection and leaving the additive mutations to do their work.

Nevertheless, at some point, through random chance alone, damaging mutations (which occur much more often) may very well unravel the effects of some or many of these additive mutations.... not that this would eliminate all of them... but this would slow the process down.

This leads to that pesky issue of time.

Did you read what Spetner had to say in his debates with Dr. Max regarding the scope of additive mutations? (linked to earlier in this thread?)

Because additive mutations are rare and limited in scope, and because damaging mutations play into the mix in a much stronger way than additive ones... a handful of billion of years is simply not near enough time... especially when you factor in what I said earlier about evolutionists' elaborate solutions to Irreducible Complexity which then create an additional need for even much, much more time compared to the time needed if Irreducible Complexity wasn't an issue.



#1084: — 03/17  at  02:54 PM
Sorry, I accidentally submitted.

So if one of these bacteria has a genetic defect, it will be out-reproduced by the other bacteria.

Furthermore, "good" mutations do NOT have to be common; they will get amplified by natural selection. Imagine a Petri dish with bacteria in it -- bacteria that are susceptible to some antibiotic. One of them gets a mutation making it resistant, and that antibiotic will kill all but that lucky one. But that lucky one will then multiply and produce a whole population of antibiotic-resistant bacteria.

Also, Rob McEwen has yet to demonstrate that speciation is entirely because of lost or damaged genes. Polyploid and hybrid speciation are counterexamples to that proposition. Also, what lost or damaged genes have resulted in lynxes having ear-tip fur tufts? Or pantherine cats roaring? Or lions being social with male ones having manes?

Note that that ligers-and-wholphins link shows a diagram of feline evolution, with the implication that all present-day Felidae are in one "created kind".

The apple maggot fly, Rhagoletis pomonella, appears to be caught in the middle of speciation, with a population that parasitizes apple trees diverging from a population that parasitizes hawthorn trees.

As to going from whale to cow, those two animals share an early-artiodactyl ancestor; cows are NOT descended from whales or vice versa. Artiodactyls have a fairly good fossil record, even if not as well-known as the equine fossil record.

Many fossil species are NOT very different from presumed ancestor species; simply consider all the species between Hyracotherium and Equus. If all the species in between are special creations, then each species was created with a remarkably strong resemblance to some presumed ancestor species.

Even human evolution fits that picture well. The earliest hominid fossils are relatively chimplike, but walking upright; the later and later ones tend to be more and more like Homo sapiens (sapiens), though with several now-extinct offshoot species along the way.

Finally, mainstream scientists had considered creationism, though most such scientists were pre-Darwinian. Darwin made such a strong case for evolution that the mainstream of the scientific community quickly became convinced. The last big-name mainstream scientist to be a creationist was Louis Agassiz, and his views departed rather strongly from Biblical literalism. He believed in special creations over geological time, and believed that entire populations of species get created, distributed over the species' ranges. Thus making him much like Hugh Ross -- and unlike young-earth creationists.



#1085: — 03/17  at  03:33 PM
I don't have all the answers... But I do think that it is ironic that your critique of speculations made by that creationist site seem to raise the bar so high on what creationists must prove while, at the same time, as shown, so much bad evidence or evidence against evolution (both past and continuing) is so easily forgiven or overlooked by evolutionists in general. Also, as shown on this page evolutionists are so free to "fill in the blanks" with wild speculations, but, as shown in my last post, can't deal or reconcile with what we DO know!

(btw, I still haven't listed the Scopes trial mis-evidence, as asked... I'll get to that tomorrow or Friday).

>all present-day Felidae are in one “created kind”.
Funny, there are two separate lines in that chart... but, I do see how this chart shows the bulk of today's cats are from one of these two lines (maybe that was your point?)... still, the chart is labeled "Possible history of cats since creation" ...see post earlier in this thread regarding the actual field work on determining this stuff... I explain why the evidence for this type of speciation is plenty powerful enough even though the science of understanding WHICH were the created kinds (from a creationist's perspective) is in relative infancy.

>Rob McEwen has yet to demonstrate
>that speciation is entirely because
>of lost or damaged genes

I NEVER said that my examples are the ONLY causes of speciation... only that the examples I give are much more prolific or common than additive mutations combined with natural selection. (strawman argument)

To be sure, examples of bacteria having additive mutations is NOT very common. (I know... you were saying in your last post that it didn't need to be common). But, to be sure for anyone reading this thread... The overwhelming reason that the "bugs" and viruses we get sick from each year are getting more powerful is due to mutations which delete or scramble rather than those which add. Not that this proves anything regarding your last post... its just that so many science students get so "convinced" of evolution just because they "know" that evolution "happens so often in viruses and infectious bacteria" when, in actuality, the science student is "confusing apples with oranges"



#1086: — 03/17  at  04:14 PM
First, all the present-day Felidae are on the right-hand tree; the left-hand one contains only extinct ones like Smilodon (the sabertoothed cat).

And calling that tree "possible" is claiming that it is speculative.

Creationists often whine that they have not had much of a chance to develop a science of creationism, including a science of baraminology, of identifying "created kinds". But their being grossly politicized suggests what their real priorities are. If they were not trying to achieve political triumphs, they might have more effort available for developing a science of creationism -- if it is possible to develop a reasonable such science.

Finally,
The overwhelming reason that the “bugs” and viruses we get sick from each year are getting more powerful is due to mutations which delete or scramble rather than those which add.

is absolutely laughable. Those mutations may not be beneficial to us, but they are beneficial to the bacteria and viruses. And how do such mutations "delete" and "scramble"?



#1087: — 03/18  at  08:17 AM
You seem to to say (or infer) that science of baraminology has to be perfect or even very well developed as a prerequisite for accepting all the other conclusions, arguments, professional opinions, and scientific evidence I've presented...

This is absolutely ridiculous and absurd.

It is also hypocritical considering the fact that the evidence for evolution was so particularly bad, fraudulent, and/or inaccurate during the 19th and early 20th century. For example, the complexity of a single-celled organism was way, way underestimated. Dating at that time was certainly the "circular reasoning" kind as more sophisticated methods were just being refined. Yet, during this same time span, few scientists could "get anywhere" without subscribing to evolution. The politics behind supporting evolution was intense. Phillip Johnson's "Darwin On Trial" extensively details the nasty politics behind the science of Evolution for those "heretics" who tried to differ for purely scientific reasons.

To be sure, having this prerequisite for baraminology would be like going back to the time when astronomers first knew for positive that stars were millions of miles away and then rejecting their conclusions purely on the basis of them not yet having the universe precisely mapped (for that portion that could be "seen" at that time).

Also, regarding the "wining"... if you quadrupled all of these organization's budgets and focused ALL their attention on baraminology... this would still be a small fraction of the combined budgets and staff of all the major Universities which strongly support Evolution.... and you'd still have to give them years to catch up.

>they were not trying to achieve
>political triumphs, they might have
>more effort available for developing
>a science of creationism
I can't blame them... for example, I've read of documented cases where teachers at colleges were fired or not promoted because of doing things like presenting a seminar which discussed some these difficulties with Evolution... in many cases, the teacher didn't even espouse or hint at creationism or Intelligent Design... it was simply... "here are some problems that Evolution has trouble dealing with". Also, I meet people ALL THE TIME who believe Evolution is absolutely proven... but then back this up with the most easily refutable evidence... apparently... they would have done a better job if they had attended PZ Myers'a or Loren Petrich's classes grin ... but given the overall state of ignorance... the way I see it, (at the least) these creationists are doing everyone a favor by making the Evolutionist clean up their act... and the example I mentioned where a teacher gets fired... in this case... the teacher was also doing the science of Evolution a favor... you can't improve something until you recognize and deal with the weaknesses!

>Is absolutely laughable
I can't figure out what is so funny... but I do realize that, in my haste, I've probably been very sloppy and have oversummerized this process regarding viruses and bacteria mutating. A better explanation is found here and here.

I'm sure that there will be something that you will disagree with in the links I've provided... but try to stick to that portion which is relevant to my point... which is, basically, mutations that add information, because they are so rare, are almost always NOT the reason that the bacterium or viruses gets resistant or stronger. Other reasons, (like, but not limited to) deletions or scrambling of DNA usually makes the bacteria or virus more resistant to drugs or more resistant to our immune system. Many, many science students conclude from their course studies that this area is a slam dunk for evolution because they are led to believe that better resistance ALWAYS means additional complexity and added DNA... the truth is quite the opposite.



's avatar #1088: PZ Myers — 03/18  at  08:44 AM
You seem to be incapable of grasping a simple point that I had thought I had clearly explained: mutations that "add information" are not rare. They are quite common. Repeating a fabrication over and over on your part will not eventually make it true.

And please...let's see you document those cases "where teachers at colleges were fired or not promoted because of doing things like presenting a seminar which discussed some these difficulties with Evolution". I've discussed deficiencies in evolutionary theory right here in this weblog. I teach courses in which I regularly discuss non-Darwinian mechanisms of evolution. Talk to any evolutionary biologist and they will gladly discuss the open questions in the field -- if there weren't any, there wouldn't be any research to do, now would there? Your claim is so absurdly ridiculous and so trivially contradicted by the status of the science that I find myself wondering why anyone, including myself, is bothering to reply to you.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#1089: Gully — 03/18  at  10:50 AM
A PROOF THAT THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION IS FALSE

1. If the theory of evolution were true, it would be possible to explain the diversity of species without intelligent design.

2. It is not possible to explain the diversity of species without intelligent design.

3. Therefore, the theory of evolution is false.

Surely you will agree that this is a VALID proof. I do not understand why you, Dr. Myers, and your RAVING ATHEIST and VERY STUPID colleagues and conspirators REFUSE to ADMIT the manifest TRUTH of premise 2, especially after so much CLEAR and PERSUASIVE reasoning has been presented to you.

Perhaps if you took your IDEOLOGICAL BLINDERS off for JUST A MOMENT and examined the STUNNING RESULTS of the NEW BARIMINOLOGICAL SYNTHESIS, you would understand how FOOLISH you are making yourself appear.



's avatar #1090: PZ Myers — 03/18  at  11:03 AM
Geez, Gully, watch out. Irony is a very difficult tool to apply to creationism, since they are so dang close to parody already.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#1091: — 03/18  at  11:15 AM
>let’s see you document those cases “where teachers...
I'd me more than happy to... one zinger comes to mind... but I'll wait a day or two to look these up again... (I can only do so much at a time)

>are not rare
Really... are you sure? If you mean not rare as in you can count billions of them happening... then I'd agree with you... from this perspective they are not rare... but if you are looking at the PROPORTIONS of additive mutations to scrambling and/or deleting mutations... then, according to Dr. Lee Spetner’s research, they ARE rare. This is the first time in this thread that my assertion has been challenged... assuming that you meant proportions and not raw numbers when you said "not rare"

>discuss the open questions in the field
yes… but with the pre-disposed bias that creationism is beyond contemplation by any rational scientist... just as most of the evolutionary scientists before you did this dating back to a time when the Evidence was absolutely preposterous. (it’s improved… now it is just somewhat preposterous)

…but I digress… it would be nice to get this thread back to more “hard” science and less opinions… you could start by explaining all those gaps in the fossil record I detailed earlier (see links that I listed).



#1092: — 03/18  at  12:57 PM
I can't quite figure Gully out. (see a few posts back). His post on his blog about this thread contradicts his posts here... leading me to believe that he is really an Evolutionist "playing the role" here of a crazy, out-of-control creationist just for fun. I bet he PZ Myers know each other. Nice try.



's avatar #1093: PZ Myers — 03/18  at  01:23 PM
I don't know Gully, but I can recognize that Gully's last comment and yours are similar in information content. You might keep that in mind when you call that comment "crazy creationist" talk.

Spetner's wrong. Both in absolute numbers and relative proportions the kinds of mutations you initially thought impossible (but now grudgingly admit might happen rarely) are not exceptional at all.

I'll talk to you about gaps after you bring me the skull of your great-great-great-grandfather. I don't believe he existed, and therefore you are some of kind of horrible lab-born creation...after all, without absolute, incontrovertible evidence of the physical remains of every member of your lineage, that ancestry must not have existed, and you can only be the unnatural spawn of some evil, non-biological process.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#1094: — 03/18  at  01:35 PM
Just a few observations from a non-scientist observer:

1) In Science there are a lot of things that you can't prove. You can just collect evidence and deduce that it is or it happened.

2) Disproving evolution doesn't mean proving ID or proving creationism.

I can be totally wrong... so can the creationists in this forum educate us on why you think the universe was designed by an intelligent entity? Where does this entity come from? If this entity is complex enough to design the universe doesn't it require a designer too? After all complexity requires a designer, right?

Please educate us.



#1095: Gully — 03/18  at  03:59 PM
I can’t quite figure Gully out. (see a few posts back). His post on his blog about this thread contradicts his posts here… leading me to believe that he is really an Evolutionist “playing the role” here of a crazy, out-of-control creationist just for fun. I bet he PZ Myers know each other. Nice try.

Drat! Foiled again!

You were right, Dr. Myers, to warn against irony.



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