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Friday, March 12, 2004

A straightforward example of creationist error

A creationist, Rob McEwen, left me a little comment here which lists a number of his objections to evolution. It’s a classic example of the genre, and well illustrates the problem we have. The poor fellow has been grossly misinformed, but is utterly convinced that he has the truth. I’m not going to dismantle his entire line of blather (thanks to Loren Petrich, who has already briefly pointed out the flaws in his thinking), but I do want to show what I mean with one example.

Here’s what Mr McEwen says:


Mutations have NEVER produced additional DNA structures. NEVER! Even as scientists study mutations in fruit flies or viruses… the mutations sometime just scramble existing DNA… but MORE OFTEN, they DELETE DNA structures. Certainly, “survival of the fittest” is a means by which nature purges the gene pool of bad mutations, but NO evolution occurs here. (This alone is a DEATH BLOW to Evolution.) I repeat… not a SINGLE scientist in the entire world has EVER recorded a mutation which produced additional DNA structures or material.... but DELETIONS are recorded ALL THE TIME!!!

Wow. He certainly is emphatic, isn’t he?

And here’s the scary thing: for all his certainty, which he almost certainly got from common sources in the creationist literature, he is absurdly, absolutely, trivially, unforgivably wrong.  That paragraph is one solid block of lies. This is what biologists have to deal with all the time, people who rant falsehoods, either out of maliciousness or simple purblind ignorance, and the mobs of people who gullibly believe them.

The truth is that many kinds of mutations very commonly produce additional DNA structures. One very common and frequently observed method is unequal crossing over. Anyone with a little background in genetics or cell biology will be familiar with the idea of crossing over: during meiosis, homologous chromosomes line up side by side, and swap bits of their DNA at points of contact called chiasmata. Here’s what they look like:

chiasmata

Normally, crossing over occurs between homologous regions of DNA, so there is no net gain or loss of DNA in either chromosome. However, it can occur by error between nonhomologous regions. When that happens, you do get a loss of DNA in one chromosome, and a gain in the other. Take a look at this diagram, which illustrates what goes on in an unequal crossing over event:


unequal crossing over

As you can see, the end result is that chromosome number 2 has suffered a deletion and has no copies of gene C, while chromosome 3 has gained an extra copy of gene C. Quite contrary to Mr McEwen, every unequal crossing over event produces an equal number of gametes bearing duplications and deletions. If gene C is essential, however, the gamete bearing a deletion is unlikely to be viable, while the duplication may have no or little effect; in viable progeny, therefore, you are more likely to see duplications than deletions.

There are also additional well-documented mechanisms that can produce additional DNA, such as insertions and translocations. People design experiments all the time that make use of duplications. We can sequence the relevant region of the chromosome and explicitly identify duplicated stretches of DNA. You can open up catalogs of mutations and find long lists of lines that carry identified duplications; you can even send a little money to a stock center and they’ll send you back flies or fish or mice that carry such mutations.

I went to the Flybase database, for instance, and did a search for any duplicated alleles. It came back with a long list of them, and here is just the first one, an allele called abd-AUab-G1, which happens to be a Hox gene in the bithorax complex. Here’s the short description.


Head to head duplication of the starting P{(-FRT)lacZ.HP}UbxHC148A element, so that two copies (P{(-FRT)lacZ.HP}UbxHC148A and P{(-FRT)lacZ.HP}abd-AUab-G1) are present in abd-AUab-G1. (Bender and Fitzgerald, 2002)

You want the full citation so you can go look up the details in the peer-reviewed scientific literature? Yeah, we can do that:

Bender and Fitzgerald (2002) Transcription activates repressed domains in the Drosophila bithorax complex. Development 129(21): 4923-4930.

Let me remind you what Mr McEwen claimed. “Mutations have NEVER produced additional DNA structures. NEVER!” Well, that’s certainly not true, is it? How about his claim that “not a SINGLE scientist in the entire world has EVER recorded a mutation which produced additional DNA structures or material”? I think I certainly have shown that scientists have recorded such things. Want a few thousand more? I wonder if Mr McEwen even realizes that when he says such things to a scientist, the first thing that pops into their heads is a plethora of counter-examples and trivial mechanisms that trivially refute all of his points without even a moment’s hesitation...

I wouldn’t be at all surprised to learn that Mr McEwen is a decent, sincere person in addition to being a fervent believer in his religious dogma. However, he has been consistently misled. His sources have lied to him. And he is working hard to propagate those same lies to more people. That’s the real tragedy of creationism, that it is a fabric of outright dishonesty that persuades good people to do wrong, all in the name of their religion.


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Comments:
's avatar #1096: PZ Myers — 03/18  at  04:37 PM
Although it was amusing that he could figure out that your extravagant claims, complete with McElwaine-style capitalization, were the mark of a looney...but didn't notice the similarity with his own comments that I quoted up there. I think you managed to score!

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#1097: — 03/18  at  05:01 PM
Rob McEwen:
You seem to to say (or infer) that science of baraminology has to be perfect or even very well developed as a prerequisite for accepting all the other conclusions, arguments, professional opinions, and scientific evidence I’ve presented.

Creationists have had plenty of opportunity to work out in detail one of the critical parts of their belief system, but for the most part, they've preferred politicking and propaganda to serious research. Simply consider this triumph of baraminology, creationists' disagreements on whether various hominid fossils are ape or human.

... the evidence for evolution was so particularly bad, fraudulent, and/or inaccurate during the 19th and early 20th century.
???

For example, the complexity of a single-celled organism was way, way underestimated.

So what? That's a problem for abiogenesis, not evolution. And as our knowledge of details has increased, so has our understanding of the very early evolution of life. Much of that complexity is not primordial, but the result of evolution. DNA, for instance, was (and still is!) a modification of RNA, and part of eukaryotic cells' complexity comes from multiple endosymbioses (mitochondria, chloroplasts, nucleus, ...).

Dating at that time was certainly the “circular reasoning” kind as more sophisticated methods were just being refined.

Stratigraphic correlation is NOT circular reasoning.

The politics behind supporting evolution was intense.

WHAT politics?

I’ve read of documented cases where teachers at colleges were fired or not promoted because of doing things like presenting a seminar which discussed some these difficulties with Evolution

Such as...

Many, many science students conclude from their course studies that this area is a slam dunk for evolution because they are led to believe that better resistance ALWAYS means additional complexity and added DNA… the truth is quite the opposite.

Demonstrably false. Bacteria can spread antibiotic-resistance genes by injecting copies into other bacteria. The recipient bacterium gets a more complex genome as a result of this added genetic material.

Also, many mutations do NOT scramble or delete DNA. Many mutations are point mutations, which alter single bases. And, of course, there are insertions, duplications, etc.





#1098: — 03/19  at  02:32 PM
I'd also like to add: where are the creationists who compare rival hypotheses of baramins and try to puzzle out who is right about what? Evolutionary biologists do similar things all the time -- I've seen numerous papers comparing proposed phylogenies.



#1099: — 03/19  at  04:16 PM
Demonstrably false. Bacteria can spread antibiotic-resistance genes by injecting copies into other bacteria. The recipient bacterium gets a more complex genome as a result of this added genetic material

OK. You are correct... Basically, you are taking advantage at my lack of thoroughness and, from a debating standpoint, I deserve to get refuted here.

But, but my premise stands... why... well, Spetner accounted for horizontal transfer of genes and gave an irrefutable argument as to why horizontal transfer of genes between microbes cannot be considered upward evolution... in a nutshell, the reason is that the additional complexity is taken from genes that already existed in another organism. For true evolution to take place, you have to increase complexity without borrowing what is already available because, basically, in the beginning, you started with practically nothing.

I've slowed down on this thread not because I don't have answers... but because I find Myers & Spetner at odds with one another. Therefore, I'm taking some time out to double-check some of my sources. I'm currently carefully reading the Spetner/Max debate. I've also e-mailed some related questions to two other scientists who are, at least, not so militantly anti-ID. One of these scientists e-mailed me back with the following:

In the case of microbes, there is much horizontal transfer of genetic information from one organism to another and that type of information, in my view, should not be included as “mutations that add information”.

I didn't ask permission from him to use his name (though he probably wouldn't mind)... I'll just say that his is a professor of Biochemistry & Molecular Biology at a school in the top 50 on this list. I've asked him and the other scientist to join in this thread, if they have the time and inclination.

So far, I still feel very comfortable with my assertions. I think that, as I've said, the best debating points scored against me have been more due to some of my poor or improper explanations. And I realise that I've left some questions unanswered... I'd get to them as soon as I can.

In the meantime:

Have any of you been able to demonstrate in a lab a positive verification of a series of mutations in a microbe or virus which led to that organism having greater complexity and an increased amount of DNA while, at the same time, zero genetic transfer between organisms occurred?



's avatar #1100: PZ Myers — 03/19  at  04:25 PM
Yes. See this talkorigins.org page, which documents several examples. In particular, I will point you to the example of nylonase evolution.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#1101: — 03/19  at  11:31 PM
Grandfather:
Herschel McEwen
buried in Sears Chapel cemetary in Rockford, AL

Great-Grandfather:
John McEwen
buried in Sears Chapel cemetary in Rockford, AL

Great-Great-Grandfather:
George W. McEwen, Jr.
buried in Sears Chapel cemetary in Rockford, AL

Great-Great-Great-Grandfather:
George W. McEwen, Sr.
buried in Sears Chapel cemetary in Rockford, AL
bio here

(If you read his bio, don't poke fun at his bad English in the letters detailed here... or at Alabama... to be sure, my Father retired a Lieutenant Colonel in the Air Force, has a Master's Degree in Math, a Master’s Degree in Business Admin, and taught math at the Air Force Academy. All my siblings are college-educated. Also, all my living relatives are very educated... Therefore, somewhere since GWM Sr., my “line” became more educated.)

Information about the Sears Chapel Cemetary can be found here

>I’ll talk to you about gaps
>after you bring me the skull
>of your great-great-great-grandfather.


Be careful what you ask for!

(I couldn't resist!)

I'm checking out those links to the examples you listed and I'm continuing to study the Spetner/Max debate... I'll get back to this thread later.



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