#12484: — 01/04  at  05:23 PM
That's a quality science job, when they tell you what your scientific positions are.

#12485: — 01/04  at  05:24 PM
Oh crap. This is stupid, but PZ you might just be correct that these thimble-brains have some following. Would you use textbooks with pages cut out? Microscopes with opaque lenses? Petrie dishes with who knows what....

#12486: Philalethes — 01/04  at  05:32 PM
That's just great. I wonder if they'd also be willing to accept competent scientists who were willing to submit to lobotomies?

And this, mind you, is what's required to teach at "Liberty" University...I hate to see their idea of bondage.

#12487: — 01/04  at  05:40 PM
I don't know why a Ph.D. is required. If you are going to require the candidates have no scientific abilities, why try to hire a scientist?

#12490: — 01/04  at  06:00 PM
From the course catalogue in Bio:

B I O L4 1 8 Vertebrate Natural History Four hours
(Three hours lecture; three hours lab)
Prerequisites: BIOL200, 207 and 208
A study of the life history of the vertebrates with special
emphasis on their taxonomy, life cycles, and ecological relationships.
Vertebrates native to central Vi rginia will receive
special attention. Lab fee.

I'd love to sit in on the lectures for that bold bit, seeing as how Liberty doesn't offer a course in evolution. Or one in phylogenetics, for that matter. I guess they could use lots of examples where the branch lengths don't represent any actual time, but isn't the idea of evolution from a commmon ancestor inherent in any taxonomy?

Oh, wait, maybe it's all about those "types" that creationists are so fond of. Lumping mice, shrews, and pika together as the small, furry, squeeky type and whatnot.

#12493: — 01/04  at  06:25 PM
Jeez. When I saw your blog entry, PZ, I thought it was a joke. But it isn't. It's academic fraud. There really is no other way to describe it. My only hope is that the appropriate scientific organizations are outraged, and will say so loudly and publicly.

#12494: — 01/04  at  06:26 PM
PhD? I giggle at the thought. Where do you suppose the applicant(s) will have received their PhD? Does LU grant PhDs? Or perhaps Bob Jones U?

#12495: — 01/04  at  06:27 PM

...why try to hire a scientist?

Yeah!

I mean, if the goal is not to educate, but to convert, wouldn't hiring a minister be more reasonable (and effective)? Why would a budding neo-Creationist listen to just another elitist intellectual "science-type person" when it comes to distributing God's beloved word?

Although, thanks to our perpetual enlightenment by our Creationist colleagues (ouch, that hurt - sorry!), I'm sure many of us Pharyngulans could do a damn good job at it.

Alright, that's it. I've reversed my position. PhD's would be great for the job.

Who better to understand non-science, than an established scientist?

#12496: — 01/04  at  06:41 PM
Steve Austin could apply, then they could boast of having a person who trained under Gould.

#12497: — 01/04  at  07:28 PM
Gotta love it! Does Liberty University have an opening for a math prof? "Compatibility with a pi = 3 position required."

#12498: Bryson Brown — 01/04  at  08:31 PM
I can see a whole list of job ads: Ancient historian, with requirement of compatibility with the gospels' 'census' account of how Jesus was born in Bethlehem; Astronomer, with requirement of compatibility with the view that the light we observe from distant stars was created in our own near neighbourhood ex nihilo 6,000 years ago or vastly higher speed of light in the very recent past; Physicist, with requirement of compatibility with rejecting basic nuclear physics to ensure radiological dating fails; Epidemiologist, with requirement of compatibility with a 'God's vengeance on Gays' view of HIV (who knows what they'll decide to say about an avian flu pandemic, but I suspect this epidemiologist had better be ready to dance to that tune, too). Dogma is such fun...

#12502: — 01/04  at  09:56 PM
Awhile ago I went to Virginia to see my sister get married, and on the way back I poked around at LU. It was a frightening experience for a young biology student, so I can only give brief impressions. They have a hall in their main building devoted to a history of Jerry Falwell and mementos, including a Jerry Falwell record! I checked at the bookstore to see if I could look at a real creationist biology book, but they were doing inventory so I missed that opportunity for hilarity. It was graduation day, and there was a sign at the exit saying "Class of 2004, Spreading the Word!"

The overall observation was these clean-cut, smiling, enthusiastic kids are to be my bane as a science teacher. I wish you could tell a fanatic by looking at one.

And you should have seen the size of their absolutely gorgeous, brand-new science building...

#12503: — 01/04  at  10:01 PM
KeithB, It is Kurt Wise who was the creationist who studied under Gould.

TonyB, the Bible does not hold that Pi is equal to 3. Check the scripture in question actually says. 1) Checking context shows that the author of the scripture in question was more than capable of using rounded numbers. To use modern terminology, the scripture does give the correct value of Pi to the number of significant figures given for the circumference and diameter. 2) The calculation is NOT valid since the the circumference and the diameter figures given in the scripture do not necessarily refer to the same circle. The Bible has many contradictions and falsehoods, but lets not try to get cheap shots since they have a tendency to blow up on us.

Bryson Brown, you are hitting on somethings. Look at the story of the star. 1) It is astrology pure and simple which is a) false and b) contrary to the Old Testiment prohibition against it. 2) The magi were from the East. They saw a star in the East. And the followed that star in the East. Would not that send them further to the East?! 3) How can a star lead someone to a very specific place? (And not that it is not simple navigation: you can use the stars to help get to a known location -- though not with enough precision to find a specific building, but real stars will not guide you to a complete unknown location.)
Of course, if this is a supernatural light and not a star then this objection is moot. (Every planetarium show written by an astronomer knows better BTW.)

--
Anti-spam: replace "user" with "harlequin2"

#12506: — 01/04  at  11:15 PM
Gee -- doesn't that count against accreditation for Liberty U?

Although, I note that it says "Ph.D required," it doesn't say that the degree need be in geology, nor even in science.

This may be the ideal position for Jonathan Witt -- he has a Ph.D., he knows nothing that contradicts young Earth geology, it appears, and he's "published."

How about Ph.D.s in English literature? Speech communication? Would an Ed.D. work? How about a J.D.?

How about a fundamentalist Moslem? There's this guy in Turkey I know about . . .

#12507: WolverineTom — 01/04  at  11:21 PM
That is pretty funny, but I wonder if a belief in plate tectonics is also required.

#12509: — 01/04  at  11:52 PM
Plate tec-what?

Come on, Wolverine. Plate tectonics are something the intellectuals brewed up to "prove" that God didn't kill 150,000 people as a result of all the sin in the world.

Speaking of which, it is time for me to vent for a moment:

I recently found out that my cousin (19 years old) - who I am quite close with - just had cardiac surgery to have a pacemaker re-installed.

I have been involved in plenty of cardiac surgery (both performing and observing), so I know that it is not a major surgery. But, I know enough to realize that it is relatively serious for a young person to have to go through this sort of procedure.

Anyway, back to my venting. When I asked my mom (a staunch Creationist) why she hadn't told me that he was having surgery today, she replied,

Well, you weren't going to pray for him, were you? I just figured that it didn't matter if you knew or not, since you wouldn't be praying for him, and you wouldn't be able to help him...

Of course, she knows I am an atheist. I told her that her comment was the worst thing I had ever heard. Then I popped one on her:

Well, maybe if you had told me earlier, Icould have then prayed for him, and then he probably wouldn't have even needed the surgery!

Obviously, this did not make her happy.

I mean, it's fine if she believes in Jesus and the word of God and all that stuff (she's lost forever, anyway), but it makes me sick when these people think that their God is some sort of fucking puppet - where if just enough people pray, they can have the power to change God's mind on what he will do on a day to day basis.

I try to understand their position, and be reasonable, but this is just getting ridiculous.

Anyone have any advice for how to deal with this shit without hurting my mom's feelings?

Or, is there a nice way to tell her that "if she is going to believe in fairies, at least be reasonable"?

#12511: 386sx — 01/05  at  12:04 AM
I’d love to sit in on the lectures for that bold bit, seeing as how Liberty doesn’t offer a course in evolution. Or one in phylogenetics, for that matter.

Actually, BIOL418 does.

http://www.liberty.edu/academics/registrar/courses00/biol418pa.htm

There is no text which is appropriate for this course, and this one chapter is the best I can find. The emphasis in the course will be on taxonomil identification and learning something of the natural history (life cycle and ecological niche) of central Virginia vertebrates. This chapter serves as a good foundation upon which many of our lectures will build. It will be clear as you read this chapter that it is based upon standard evolutionary thought. While the philosophy expounded by this chapter does not agree with the Christian world-view, it is important that you know evolutionary theory since most of the professional exams that you will take to advance your career in biology will contain questions on evolution.

#12513: Robert O'Brien — 01/05  at  12:21 AM

Or, is there a nice way to tell her that “if she is going to believe in fairies, at least be reasonable”?

I can't help you, but if your mom needs help rhetorically bitch-slapping her impertinent child then tell her she is welcome to contact me.

#12514: Robert O'Brien — 01/05  at  12:35 AM
<blockhead>Jeez. When I saw your blog entry, PZ, I thought it was a joke. But it isn’t. It’s academic fraud. There really is no other way to describe it. My only hope is that the appropriate scientific organizations are outraged, and will say so loudly and publicly.</blockhead>

Dr. Dan, if the folks at Liberty believe in YEC, and the prospective hire believes in YEC, wherein is the fraud? The word "fraud" implies an intentional perversion of the truth, which I should think a jackleg lawyer would know all too well.

#12515: — 01/05  at  12:39 AM
Jeebus, I can't think of anything to say to your mother without hurting her feelings, because what she did was wrong regardless of whether prayer works. Suppose that in my family, one of us had some crisis that required other family members to go be with them. Some of us wouldn't be able to be there, because of living too far away or whatever. They nonetheless would want to know! If my mother afterwards told her brother in Germany, "I knew you wouldn't be able to help, so I didn't bother to let you know," he would have good reason to feel hurt.

#12519: Mrs Tilton — 01/05  at  06:26 AM
isn’t the idea of evolution from a commmon ancestor inherent in any taxonomy?

It isn't; or at least, it doesn't need to be. I don't think Linnaeaus had much in the way of a concept of evolution. In fact, strictly speaking, a taxonomy need not even be of organisms - the Library of Congress's classification scheme for books is, in a sense, a taxonomic system. Whether a taxonomy of organisms should reflect understanding of evolutionary history is another question altogether (and one that I think most of us would answer in the affirmative).

In one of his popularisations (can't recall which one - probably Blind Watchmaker or Unweaving the Rainbow) Dawkins slapped Norm Platnick around for trying to erect a cladistic scheme that did not presuppose evolution. The furore about 'reformed cladistics' seems to have died down, though, and Platnick remains a very grand figure in arachnid systematics. (And as far as I can tell, nothing very 'reformed' informs the Catalog he edits.)

Excluding 'baraminologists' as essentially comic relief, I don't think there can be many taxonomists today who don't presuppose descent from common ancestors. But there's nothing inherent in the idea of taxonomy that requires it. Taxonomy simply makes more sense and is more useful once you plug that concept in.

(Actually, all the above somewhat blurs the distinction between taxonomics and systematics. Strictly speaking, one could probably espouse a systematics that scrupulously reflects evolutionary history and still dress it up in a taxonomy that doesn't. But that would be stupid and bizarre. Classical Linnaean taxonomy isn't inherently evolutionary, but you can see it affected by an underlying evolution-based systematics as, for example, when an organism is shifted to a more appropriate genus. I don't know as much as I'd like to about the Phylocode proposals, but my understanding is that they are intended to make taxonomics as rigourously phylogenetic as Hennig made systematics.

#12520: Chloe — 01/05  at  06:51 AM
Jeebus:
Your mother's comments about your cousin and your lack of prayer sound vindictive. To be effective, don't attack her arguments, confront her treatment of you.
Attacking her arguments and her beliefs will only bring more resentments from her, and probably more vindictive comments/behaviour. Telling her what she's doing to you or saying to you that you don't like, don't appreciate, or find unacceptable, is the only thing you can do to avoid a "battle" but allow you to communicate.
Personally, I would say to her something like, "I would like to know about my cousin's condition because I care about my cousin. I should think that somebody who cared about my feelings would want me to be kept informed about the condition of someone I care about."
To go into anything more than her treatment or behaviour towards you... is futile, and some would argue not your business. In other words, you can't change her into what you wish she would be, but you can ask to be treated better.
If you stay out of the sandbox about her religious beliefs, she might come to realize it's better to stay out of the sandbox about your lack of religious beliefs.
This is just my opinion, of course. Which was asked for (generally).

#12522: DarkSyde — 01/05  at  07:00 AM

Any soulless, incompetent frauds who are willing to take it should contact

Finally! A job for me! I knew selling my soul and being incompetent would eventually pay off. And after working with creationists 'lo these many years, I think I have on the job fraud experience. Now, how much does it pay?

#12523: Kevin — 01/05  at  07:34 AM
Robert O'Brien, if you wish to convince anyone that they're wrong about calling this academic fraud, then you shouldn't define fraud in a way ("intentional perversion of the truth") which provides a five word summary of young earth creationism.

Even if we grant that the professor has managed to remain ignorant of the serious flaws in creationist arguments, it's still inconsistent with the ideal of an educational institution to cultivate and spread ignorance.

#12524: — 01/05  at  08:18 AM
The pi = 3 thing is a fallacy. I believe they get pi right to three significant figures. Don't be shocked guys, it's easy to wrap a cord around the outside of the bowl and then across the inside of the bowl and come up with a ratio to three significant figures. They at least had enough common sense to do that!

Better examples would be finding a cosmologist who believes the earth is the center of solar system and that stars are really lights hung in "the firmament."