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Wednesday, April 27, 2005

Another Nature editorial...that is a little better

Although Nature embarrassed themselves with the appalling article by Brumfiel, they did publish a more thoughtful editorial, titled, Dealing with design. I've tucked the whole thing below the fold.

The idea of intelligent design is being promoted in schools and universities in the United States and Europe. Rather than ignoring it, scientists need to understand its appeal and help students recognize the alternatives.

Scientists tend to tune out when they hear the words 'intelligent design'. The concept, which endeavours to show God's hand shaping the course of evolution, is being promoted in parts of Europe and, more significantly, has recently become popular among Christian fundamentalists who want religion taught in US secondary schools. To most researchers it sounds like politics rather than science, and like someone else's problem.

Mixing as it does the supernatural with scientific doctrine, the concept is a throwback to the days when natural philosophers pursued pseudoscientific disciplines such as alchemy. But the scientific community should not ignore it. As the article on page 1062 reveals, the concept is gaining popularity on US college campuses.

That is because many of the students taught in introductory biology classes hold religious beliefs that conflict, at least on the face of things, with Darwin's framework. Professors rarely address the conflicts between faith and science in lectures, and students are drawn to intelligent design as a way of reconciling their beliefs with their interest in science. In doing so, they are helping it to gain a small, but firm, foothold on campuses around the country.

This is bad news for researchers. Unlike 'creation science', which uses the Bible as its guide, intelligent design tries to use scientific methods to find evidence of God in nature. This approach makes it less theologically heavy-handed than its predecessor, but it also poses a threat to the very core of scientific reason. Most contemporary researchers believe that it is better to keep science and theology firmly separated. Most theologians would agree: intelligent design is not a part of Catholic doctrine, for example.

So what can scientists do to counter the appeal of intelligent design? The concept's advocates frequently approach researchers with offers of campus-wide 'Darwin versus design' debates. Such events tend to be well attended, but don't change many minds. Furthermore, ill-prepared scientific lectures can sometimes lack the superficial impact of design advocates' carefully crafted talking points.

Scientists know that natural selection can explain the awe-inspiring complexities of organisms, and should be prepared to explain how. But attacking or dismissing intelligent design is likely to aggravate the rift between science and faith that causes students to become interested in intelligent design in the first place.

Scientists would do better to offer some constructive thoughts of their own. For religious scientists, this may involve taking the time to talk to students about how they personally reconcile their beliefs with their research. Secular researchers should talk to others in order to understand how faiths have come to terms with science. All scientists whose classes are faced with such concerns should familiarize themselves with some basic arguments as to why evolution, cosmology and geology are not competing with religion. When they walk into the lecture hall, they should be prepared to talk about what science can and cannot do, and how it fits in with different religious beliefs.

Some will be troubled by the suggestion that they discuss these issues in the classroom. Indeed, it is not the job of a science teacher to meddle with the way their students are brought up or to attack their core personal beliefs. Rather, the goal should be to point to options other than intelligent design for reconciling science and belief.

Even if they manage to sway just a few students, researchers in the United States can have a disproportionate effect on the national debate over science in the classroom. Students often return to their home communities and become teachers, doctors and engineers. It is as local community leaders that those students will become invaluable allies when more conservative religious groups try to halt the teaching of scientific theories in schools.

I quite agree that active outreach by scientists promoting good biology is an important step. And I think that the constructive promotion of evolution, critical thinking, and strong scientific ideals is critical.

I am troubled by the suggestion that science teachers should avoid criticizing core personal beliefs, however. One of the jobs of good teaching is to change people, and denying the power of science to radically change the way we think is counterproductive. I'm not interested in converting students to atheism, but I do want students to graduate from my university with their minds revolutionized.

And one thing I really don't understand is how the promotion of good science suggested here is reconciled with the fluffing of Salvador Cordova in that other article.


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Comments:
#23197: — 04/27  at  01:28 PM
intelligent design tries to use scientific methods to find evidence of God in nature.

It might help if Nature would discuss ID intelligently. While it is true that IDists use what they call "scientific methods" to find evidence of God, they fail entirely to understand scientific methodology.

And it isn't a matter of divorcing science from religion per se, since religious folk have often used their sense of veracity and belief in a reliable "creation" to develop and use valid scientific practices. The trouble is that these "religious IDists" have failed completely to find God via the empirical sciences, and wish to destroy these where they conflict with their religious prejudices. They complain that "naturalism" doesn't allow us to consider their ID concepts, when of course it's really just a matter of epistemology, and that we're unwilling to decide a priori what design is without first going out and finding out what "design" can even mean.

No, this article failed both with regard to religion and to science. If one's religion is compatible with epistemology, then there is no point in artificially separating it from one's scientific life. One must use proper rules of evidence, however, and IDists want to avoid evidentiary rules and call that science



#23202: charlie wagner — 04/27  at  01:38 PM
Nature wrote:

"Scientists know that natural selection can explain the awe-inspiring complexities of organisms, and should be prepared to explain how."

That statement is absolutely not true. Natural selection is NOT part of the "fact of evolution".
Darwinism is embarrasing science just the way Tom DeLay is embarrasing the Republicans. Both should be gotten rid of for the good of everyone.
We should just get rid of Darwin and the whole damn problem will go away and we can get back to science; genetics, molecular biology, paleontology and the rest. If there is any one overriding theme that unites all of biology and without which nothing else would make sense, it is the unity and relatedness of all life, not darwinism or evolution.



#23205: — 04/27  at  01:45 PM
What's all this @#$%@$% about helping students to reconcile science and religious belief? I thought the job of science teachers was to teach science. If a scientific journal like Nature wants to weigh in on ID, I think they need to make it their primary point that ID is not science.



#23213: — 04/27  at  02:15 PM
Nature editorial says: "All scientists whose classes are faced with such concerns should familiarize themselves with some basic arguments as to why evolution, cosmology and geology are not competing with religion."

Doesn't this depend on the religious claim? Surely in many cases there are conflicts.

Also, re: natural selection - I'm not sure if this was C.W.'s point, but it is certainly important to keep the so called "Tree of life hypothesis" (that all, or nearly all life is related and descended from a common ancestor) and the claim that natural selection is the primary mechanism that drives evolution. This is because, even though there is a lot of evidence that both are true, biologists who engage in the adaptiationism debate are focused only on the latter issue (to what extent is natural selection the most important factor? How does its role compare to drift, constraints, etc.) and one doesn't want to confuse debates about the power of NS with whether there is controvesy about whether we share a common ancestor with apes or dogs. since there is no significant scientific controversy about the latter claim.



's avatar #23217: ajmilne — 04/27  at  02:27 PM
Re:

...denying the power of science to radically change the way we think is counterproductive...

Find myself thinking this is the nub of it, really. If science doesn't upset certain folk, it probably isn't science. The reality is, honestly assessing where the evidence leads in evolutionary biology is gonna lead to some short circuits if you expect you're going to put all that in a brain also trying to make room for certain cosmologies native to the neolithic and the bronze age.

So sure. We've got chunks of those cosmologies still rattling 'round, and we've got various, increasingly and entertainingly bizarre accomodations various folk have concocted to allow bits and pieces of them to survive in the context of overwhelming evidence that should reduce them, really, to mental artifacts of historical interest at best, and Nature's editorial board would like to request that, somehow, people whose job is to teach science should refrain from 'attacking [such folks'] core personal beliefs'?

I'm not a teacher (perhaps obviously). But I find it hard to figure how in hell anyone would expect me to avoid doing that and still actually teach the science.



#23223: — 04/27  at  02:43 PM
"Nature's editorial board would like to request that, somehow, people whose job is to teach science should refrain from 'attacking [such folks'] core personal beliefs'?"

Fuck the Nature editors.

When some sick religion preaches to its followers that its core beliefs are "scientific understanding leads to amorality," "gay people are going to hell," and "people whose actions cause human embryos to stop dividing are murderers" then its time to put that sick religion out of its fucking misery.

Nature is going to feel some serious heat for their failure to reign in this Brumfiel asshole.



#23224: — 04/27  at  02:45 PM
' am troubled by the suggestion that science teachers should avoid criticizing core personal beliefs, however. One of the jobs of good teaching is to change people, and denying the power of science to radically change the way we think is counterproductive'

Exactly, why should 'belief' be off limits?

If the belief crumbles, maybe it should.



#23227: — 04/27  at  03:02 PM
This article deserves no more of a pass than the other one. Indeed, it may be far worse. It's a call to include "how science does not compete with religion" in science classes. That's an arbitrary orthodoxy. Lots of people think the two do compete, and almost everyone recognizes that the two compete in at least some aspects of some (popular) relgious beliefs (of the precise kinds that are troublesome). What Nature has called for is (science) classroom instruction about why they don't, for the purpose of "swaying" students to the compatiblist view. Even if this was a good idea, what are you supposed to teach, and how much time are you supposed to spend on this that you won't then spend teaching the science, and which among you is comfortable thinking you have the skills necessary to teach this kind of thing?



#23232: Jamie Flournoy — 04/27  at  03:17 PM
Sadly, because public schools are controlled and funded by the state, and we live in a democracy, ultimately the mob rules the schools.

As long as a cadre of convincing charlatans and fools can out-debate scientists, this sort of thing will persist. The DeLay "activist judges" issue is about this very problem: people who are not accountable to mob rule can get in the way of people who the mob elected.

Scientists will just have to become better debaters than ID proponents. Otherwise ID will become regulated or legislated into becoming US science education policy in the near future, because activist parents who vote and donate will demand it.



#23235: — 04/27  at  03:28 PM
On other thought before I pick up my torch and pitchfork and get in my submarine to visit Merry Old Englard:

Nature Magazine has a history of spotlighting garbage science and it may very well be the case that the editors have chosen their milktoast approach because they are certain it will outrage their readers.

In the past -- e.g., the Benveniste affair -- this backlash turned out to be far more effective and damning to the pseudoscience peddlers than any "sua sponte" editorial could ever be.

But let's not let this opportunity go to waste.

Why isn't this being reported at Panda's Thumb???



's avatar #23236: PZ Myers — 04/27  at  03:39 PM
There is some talk about doing something on the Thumb. My post here was a quick reflex -- there might be something more thorough in the works.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#23260: L — 04/27  at  07:11 PM
Perhaps they just should have published this milkandcookies link to a pro-science rap animation featuring "MC Hawking"... At least there are no conceptual errors in that...



#23271: — 04/27  at  10:30 PM
I am an atheist. My wife is a Methodist who takes her faith seriously.
When we were dating, she pushed me on the issue of God and science, (amazed that I think death means, "really dead"). With much trepidation, (she's much better looking than I am), I explained that the Bible is not a science book. Nothing about physics, electricity, etc.

Yea... you all know that already... My point being that the effort turned into a 10 year discussion that not only made me better looking, but quelled a conflict she stuggled with her entire adult life.

She blames me for fortifying her faith. She not only lacks a fear of science, but has come to the conclusion that ID and other "faith based" explanations of nature are hurtful in that they deliberately attempt to blur the line between faith and science. They pollute scientific principals, while at the same time attempting to cloak faith in a psuedo-philosophy of "proof of God". She finds that insulting. Faith is belief, "I do not NEED proof!" she claims.

I do think it helps to engage in these discussions. Provide guidance to those who attempt to make an honest effort to resolve their conflicts. Of course that also means it is pointless to engage the intellectually dishonest. There is no debate, or exchange of ideas, when one knowingly misrepresents facts.



#23279: dp — 04/27  at  11:17 PM
I was part of a group that formed to address this issue several years back. We wanted to present the fact that evolution poses no threat to faith so long as you understand the limits of both. We then published four little booklets to reinforce our point (the first four books listed on http://www.cis.org.uk/books_rec.htm).

All of this was an attempt to say to Christian students at university that they didnt need to throw their brains away to be a christian, and that there were plenty of decent christians out there active in science and working on the forefront of new evolutionary discoveries.

One of the authors of the books says this: "The rapid development of genetics has conclusively demonstrated that humanity has evolved from primate progenitors. We share common ancestors with chimps, with all the apes, with the simians, and with prosimians such as the tarsier and lemur...Not only does this genetic evidence establish the evolutionary route of our own biological history, it also demonstrates that macroevolution has occurred."

This was our little contribution to the whole situation. One of the books has a great bit that picks apart ID. I think this is the kind of thing the Nature editorial is refering too.



#23281: Delance — 04/28  at  01:56 AM
I really don't get why some need ID or Creationism (not the same thing, but whatever) to believe in a higher power, or some need evolution and science to disbelieve. People are very strange. This kind of debate is evidence of that.

I find it funny however how “critical thinking” means today blind adherence to a rigid set of beliefs, and being in order to be worthy of being called skeptical means never doubt certain things. But I digress.

It would be jolly good if people could just keep their subjective worldview out of science. Let people make up their own minds as to what a scientific theory (or fact, you prefer) like evolution means, and doesn’t mean.

ID seems to be no more than a philosophical interpretation evolution (being flawed wouldn't change this categorization), no different then the philosophical materialism (idem). Not science. People want to be atheists, pantheists, believe in UFOs, Alien Overlords manipulating life on Earth (an exotic ID-compatible approach), they can. Just don’t label it "scientific fact" and try to shove it down other people throats.



#23282: Delance — 04/28  at  02:35 AM
I know you must face a lot of intense debate on the “cultural wars”, but I don’t mean any harm. I simply mean to establish a dialogue. I actually had a solid scientific education, and did take “Philosophy of Science” as a university student. I watched Cosmos and Powers of Ten. I’ve learned evolution with books that have all the stuff creationist don’t like. I know the basic framework.

I am troubled by the suggestion that science teachers should avoid criticizing core personal beliefs, however. One of the jobs of good teaching is to change people, and denying the power of science to radically change the way we think is counterproductive. I'm not interested in converting students to atheism, but I do want students to graduate from my university with their minds revolutionized.


I’m puzzled by this. Would you be so kind as to elaborate on a few things?

In which way “having their mind revolutionized” does not equal becoming atheists? Can people be “changed”, “radically” changed in the way they think, even, without at least becoming agnostics? If not a goal, is that a required consequence?

Now, what if the Core Belief of the student was different from yours but did not interfere, or even overlap with science? Would it still be OK to criticize it? If not based on science, on what?



#23285: — 04/28  at  06:19 AM
All of this was an attempt to say to Christian students at university that they didnt need to throw their brains away to be a christian

Apparently you disagree with the likes of Martin Luther on that:

"Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding."

"Reason is the enemy of faith."

"Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has."



#23290: — 04/28  at  07:34 AM
Let people make up their own minds as to what a scientific theory (or fact, you prefer) like evolution means, and doesn’t mean.
Fine...

...Just as long as we understand whose meaning accurately describes nature and is supported by innumerable data, and whose meaning is a deliberate lie... an half-assed solution that explains nothing, and predicts nothing - except, of course the motives of said "theorist" - which are strictly ideological (and nonscientific).

I hate to re-conjure Lincoln's famous quote, but...

"How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg."

But, of course, you are right (Delance). People should be allowed to believe whatever they want, whether it be about the color of the sky, or the size of Ann Coulter's prominentia laryngea.

The problem, is when people start to shove their ideologies down other people's throats and into the school systems. That is not allowed, primarily because what you are proposing is NOT science.

I made a joke on an earlier thread about why Creationists shouldn't be held to materialistic assumptions. I shouldn't have made a joke... Honestly, the Creationist camp (like everyone else) can believe what they want to think - and they will!

smile

Still, the point is that in reality, scientists would - now hold on, this one's going to shock you - scientists would most likely be a bit more open to ID/Creationist ideas if they brought to the table any scientific ideas or experiments or data.

Scientists are not picky about where they get their data, so long as it can be verified empirically and predicts nature with the utmost accuracy possible.

What they are picky about is when people make things up, try to pass it as science, and then proclaim that all the "logical and liberal and atheist and communist bastards are being closed-minded and are just afraid of the awe-inspiring power of the Lord Jesus Christ total ambiguity.

Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

-Jerry Garcia



#23299: Redshift — 04/28  at  10:33 AM
Delance: In which way “having their mind revolutionized” does not equal becoming atheists? Can people be “changed”, “radically” changed in the way they think, even, without at least becoming agnostics?

I am mystified as to how you could think that the only radical change that is possible in someone's thinking is a change from religious belief to atheism or agnosticism. Even speaking solely in the domain of science, I have in my lifetime experienced a number of radical changes in my thinking after being exposed to new concepts in biology, cosmology, physics and others that had me looking at the world in an entirely new way. Such an occurrence is a great joy, and I would find it very sad to be so closed-minded or lacking in exposure to new ideas that one never experienced it.



's avatar #23300: PZ Myers — 04/28  at  10:42 AM
Right. I have no interest at all in converting students to atheism, and would in fact be a bit disturbed if any of them told me that my classes had persuaded them to disbelieve in god -- we don't ever discuss the subject. Something would be wrong if they thought I was proselytizing for godlessness in my courses, and I'd try to revise what I was doing to avoid such a problem.

If some student's "Core Beliefs" conflicted with science, then maybe they are better off not taking science classes. It's simply not my problem if some student's cherished beliefs in magic fairies that make cells dance is not reconcilable with the observable realities of the cytoskeleton...I teach about actin and tubulin, not fairies.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#23369: Delance — 04/29  at  02:02 AM
Thanks for answers.

The problem, is when people start to shove their ideologies down other people's throats and into the school systems. That is not allowed, primarily because what you are proposing is NOT science.


I’m not proposing anything. If ID is not science, and neither is philosophical materialism, they shouldn’t be thought as much. Some people seem think atheism is somehow being shoveled down on people’s throats as if it’s science. If that’s not really happening, there might be serious problem of misunderstanding.

Such an occurrence is a great joy, and I would find it very sad to be so closed-minded or lacking in exposure to new ideas that one never experienced it.


That’s truth; to miss on something wonderful due to close-mindedness would truly sad. And I don’t think that one need be an agnostic to understand or appreciate science. The reason I asked it is because sometimes I get a feeling that some consider it almost to be a prerequisite.

If some student's "Core Beliefs" conflicted with science, then maybe they are better off not taking science classes.


Well, I have no problem with that, since none of my core beliefs conflicts with science. And I am religious. That’s just what I was saying. Pax et bonum.



#23447: — 04/30  at  08:33 AM
I think Nature proved itself as a premier scientific journal by covering the story of intelligent design on the campues. The editors may be biased against intelligent design, but the facts speak louder than words.

I have only a minor roled in coverting biology students. We have PhD biologists in our IDEA chapters who are trained in biology and some in evolutionary biology. In their case, it is not lack of training or scientific information which causes one to reject Darwinian evolution. Dr. Caroline Crocker is a case in point, and at Paul Gross's school there a PhD's, PhD/MD's, and PhD candidates who share my views. ID is advancing because it is scientifically plausible.

By the way, I'm quite happy to refer the Evangelicals in our IDEA chapters who are bio majors at the undergrad, grad, PhD, and post doctoral level to your weblog. You're doing a wonderful job of inspiring the movement by calling us ignorant twits. Keep up the good work, Dr. Myers.

I'm look forward to seeing more commentary in the evolution of the redundant development pathways of nematode vulva. How can a redundant pathway be formed by natural selection when it's not even being used most of the time? I've enjoyed your attempt to offer a convincing resolution to the problems of characterizing a Protostome-Deuterostome Ancestor (your discussion with Paul Nelson on the subject was very entertaining).

Like Paul Nelson, I think I like you. You've done much to help promote intelligent design by your daily offerings here at pharyngula. I extend my personal thanks.



's avatar #23448: Chris Clarke — 04/30  at  09:42 AM
You're doing a wonderful job of inspiring the movement by calling us ignorant twits.

Says worlds, doesn't it?

"I do not think we should antagonize the religious when it is not warranted, though I think we should be willing to do so whenever it is.”
-- Glen Davidson



's avatar #23449: PZ Myers — 04/30  at  09:55 AM
I liked this one better: "How can a redundant pathway be formed by natural selection when it's not even being used most of the time?"

What a clueless maroon.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



's avatar #23456: Chris Clarke — 04/30  at  10:50 AM
Of course, the all-time funniest ID-related comment is on my blog this week, in the clueless Christian comment onslaught that never ends:

In the mid 70's my dad had a car with electric door locks. The living power of Jesus Christ can do anything - and He does!

"I do not think we should antagonize the religious when it is not warranted, though I think we should be willing to do so whenever it is.”
-- Glen Davidson



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