#42191: charlie wagner — 09/29  at  06:44 PM
This presents me with a real dilemma.

"A Scientific Support For Darwinism"

Absolutely not!

And For Public Schools To Not
Teach "Intelligent Design" As Science

Absolutely YES!

I just sat here for the past hour listening to just about every version of "Four Strong Winds" ever recorded. Ian and Sylvia, of course, but also Judy Collins, Neil Young, John Denver, The Kingston Trio, Waylon Jennings, and quite a few more. But the best of all? One of my favorite groups: The Wolfe Tones. If you've never listened to these guys, crank up your ears and listen to "The Streets of New York" (you'll cry, I guarantee it) "Dingle Bay" and "Ireland Unfree".
Music is the most important reason for living.

#42193: charlie@charliewagner.com — 09/29  at  07:00 PM
When I was a youngster, I hung out in the Village with the folkies. Liam Clancy was ubiquitous in those days, and one couldn't help running into him at the coffee houses and clubs. He most always looked like he was three sheets to the wind but it was then that he was at his most brilliant and profound. A true Irishman!
Anyway, I always wished I could remember some of the stuff he used to come up with. Mostly it was lost forever in the Guiness and the tears.
I just got a copy of "No Direction Home" the Martin Scorsese film about Bob Dylan. And there was old Liam, looking stronger, healthier and drunker than I ever remembered. And there was Bobby, telling us about some of the amazing things that Liam came out with after 30 pints. And then I heard something I hadn't heard in 43 years:

"No fear...No envy...no meanness

Ah-ha!!! That was it!

What a prescription for living! What a wonderful philosophy!

Where have we gone wrong?

#42194: — 09/29  at  07:14 PM
Signed, and forwarded to some others who will.

Mr Wagner, are you answering on the right blog??

#42195: tito — 09/29  at  07:19 PM
Thanks for the tip - I signed.

As a surgeon, I have sometimes been asked by my patients to "confirm" for them that the human body is a wondrous entity. This I do. I am always amazed at what it can do. They usually take this to be an opening to speak of how it is an amazing "design."

That's when I get to do a little education. It's fun. Really.

By the way, this is a truly excellent blog.

#42196: charlie wagner — 09/29  at  07:26 PM
EVinson wrote:

"Mr Wagner, are you answering on the right blog??"

Who is to say which blog is the "right" blog?

When I have something that I think is interesting, I say it.
Did you find it interesting?

Here's "The Streets of New York" if you can't find it:

http://www.charliewagner.net/streets.mp3

#42197: charlie wagner — 09/29  at  07:36 PM
tito wrote:

"I have sometimes been asked by my patients to "confirm" for them that the human body is a wondrous entity. This I do. I am always amazed at what it can do."

Here's one I bet you never heard. I have a 100% occlusion (stenosis?) of my left renal artery. Probably had it for quite a while. But my body has grown another left renal artery! Yes, there are two!. The collateral artery is smaller, but it's carrying blood and that blood is reaching the cortex. Talk about amazing.

#42199: — 09/29  at  08:02 PM
Is there a separate petition for scientists named Steve??

#42203: decrepitoldfool — 09/29  at  08:40 PM
I can't sign it - not a scientist - but I've spent my life happily immersed in science. Petitions aside I hope we can come up with plans to inspire kids find entertainment in the physical world instead of made-up diversions. Religion's main expertise is inspiration and reality can do better.

Captcha: "progeny"

#42204: — 09/29  at  08:52 PM
Does a 'scientist in training' count...?

#42211: Alon Levy — 09/30  at  01:14 AM
Can a final-year undergrad in math sign?

#42216: — 09/30  at  02:56 AM
To the last three commenters - check the signatures already there, you will find trainees, mathematicians, even a graphic designer. I think that they only request that your field of study involves evolution. Although I m not a researcher, as a lab physician I consider myself an applied scientist,and in pathology and microbiology, I am up against the effects of evolution all the time. I feel qualified (and proud) to sign.
Charlie - your renal artery anomaly is not that unusual. You were probably born with a duplicate renal artery, which I see frequenly in autopsies. You re main branch became blocked and the subsidiary branch enlarged to compensate. This would be a fortunate mutation for you, and an example of something the creationists deny ever happens.

#42221: — 09/30  at  05:15 AM
They're now up to nearly 1,900 - though I suspect one of their signatories just might be a fake: "Doctor Frankenstein", a "Reanimatory Biolog[ist]" whose entry in the "religion" column reads "ID is not a religous concept fuckhead". Funny, because as a metaphor for ID, the Frankenstein story could work rather well: sticking together bits of scavenged dead material that ought to be decently buried and creating a shambling, ugly, destructive mess that ultimately brings down its originator...

#42223: Kajiki — 09/30  at  05:28 AM
Aw crud. They want professional scientists. The last time I had a profession of any kind (6 years ago), I was opening and closing gates for residents inside an exhibition area.... maybe that counts as physics...

I bet fundies are going to throw themselves over this.

#42227: coturnix — 09/30  at  06:49 AM
The way to put Bible into schools that I do not object to:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20050929/ts_csm/cbible_1

#42228: R. Joe Brandon — 09/30  at  06:53 AM
Hello Folks,

My name is R. Joe Brandon and I am the promoter of the petition:


A Scientific Support For Darwinism

And For Public Schools To Not

Teach "Intelligent Design" As Science



http://shovelbums.org/component/option,com_mospetition/Itemid,506/

The petition should top 2,000 entries by 9:30 AM Sept 30th 2005.

I just wanted to clarify that to the best of my abilities I have been doing random samples of entries and checking their names against addresses and they are coming out accurate which implies that to date, the entries are good. I did remove Dr. Frankensteins entry and am working on catching the very few duplicates that are out there.

For the question about the petition for scientists named "steve" The National Center for Science Education runs project Steve at: http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/3541_project_steve_2_16_2003.asp

As for who can sign the petition I am trying to focus it on professionals who have schooling in evolutionary theory. One of my gripes about the Discovery Institute's petition is that it is singed by many people with a PhD in their title, but no schooling in evolutionary sciences. I read a quote recently (which I can't find to cite) that said "just because a scientists makes a statement, it does not mean it is science".


Also to support the list I have put up a line of "No ID As Science In School" gear.

http://shovelbums.org/ARCHAEOLOGY_GEAR_STORE/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=27
Best,

R. Joe

#42232: Alon Levy — 09/30  at  07:38 AM
To the last three commenters - check the signatures already there, you will find trainees, mathematicians, even a graphic designer. I think that they only request that your field of study involves evolution.

This means I'm out. I'm going to specialize in algebraic number theory, or possible analytic number theory, neither of which has many applications in biology (or many applications anywhere...). The only thing I've formally learned about evolutionary biology is the basic gist of the endosymbiotic theory of the origin of organelles.

#42249: MAJeff — 09/30  at  08:49 AM
I'm a lowly sociologist, so my name's not needed, but I did forward it to the anthropologists in my department.

#42254: R. Joe Brandon — 09/30  at  09:00 AM
Thanks for sending that on MAJeff, and if you know any biologists or astrophysicists they are a great audience too.

#42278: — 09/30  at  11:28 AM
R. Joe Brandon, I think Ken Miller made the comment you are looking for quote-wise. Should be on one of the Dover blogs - check Panda's Thumb.

Glad to see the petition, and happily signed it.

#42279: — 09/30  at  11:37 AM
Found it!

Miller Cross Examined
This morning, the defendants' counsel, Thomas More Law Center's Robert Muise, completed their cross examination of biology professor Kenneth Miller. Miller was questioned about his knowledge of several well known scientists, including Francis Crick (of double helix fame), evolutionary scientist Stephen Jay Gould and paleontologist George Gaylord Simpson, "one of the founders of the 'modern synthesis' of evolution."

Miller established his extensive knowledge of said scientists - Gould was a personal friend. Miller was aware that Crick was a Nobel Laurate. - and their theories. The questioning, then, jumped to a discussion on NASA and its search for extra terrestrial life life, as well as questions about whether Miller felt Crick's theory contained supernatural undercurrents. Muise appeared to be implying that other credible scientists have made statements that could be interpretted as having some elements tied to the supernatural.

When questioned about this in the plaintiff's redirect, Miller stated "just because scientists say something doesn't make it scientific."

posted by ACLU of Pennsylvania at 12:31 PM 20 comments

#42329: — 09/30  at  07:36 PM

When questioned about this in the plaintiff's redirect, Miller stated "just because scientists say something doesn't make it scientific."

Coming soon to a quote mine near you.

--
Anti-spam: Replace "user" with "harlequin2"

#42337: — 10/01  at  02:38 AM
The examples are obvious though, eg I could say "I like chocolate" and that wouldn't be scientific. Nearly all the things scientists say are going to be of that form, ie just like sayings of non-scientists.