Pharyngula

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Saturday, August 06, 2005

Ape to Man: it hasn't aired, and the creationists are already gibbering

Ekzept mentioned this series in the comments, and I definitely will try to catch this Ape to Man program on the History Channel tomorrow. It could be cheesy, it could be informative, but one thing is for sure, it has drawn out the creationists. The History Channel has a forum on the program, and it's jam-packed with the usual fallacies. It also a few examples of ignorance that will turn your stomach.

I don't want to be black and I don't want to be an ape.

I think that a lot of this so called science supports a leftist agenda. I am proud of being a white man we have conquered the whole earth and brought forth a civilization unparalleled in history. Yet all we get is grief about how we stole everything speak with forked tongues and all kinds of crap such as this. Yet no one has a problem with using and even coveting the white mans technology no one is ever clamoring to move from an all white neighborhood because of the crime. On the contrary we have made great strides in excepting other races and religions among us. How many races if in control of the world could have done better. No one ever speaks of the great comfort that the powerful white nations gives to those who would be attacked and torn to pieces if it wasn't for white men protecting them from extinction, brought on many times by their own races and cultures. Instead we are made to feel that we caused all other races to be crime ridden. Recently it has been discovered that British have changed very little since the last ice age could this mean we white people were always white. I mean how disgusted would a black man be to know that his race was once white it sure takes all the pride out of your race and then to even suggest we all were lower forms of life like a damn monkey. If being proud of my own race, "I have no right as a white person to have such pride", makes me a racists I guess I am a racists. Since I have been so bold as to suggest this, I would also like to know more about the Nazi's, did they have a point about jewish businessmen losing the first world war for them? Heaven forbid someone actually take an indepth look at this question for fear of being called a racist. While I find what the Nazi's did unbelievably evil, as I am a christian and believe that the Jews are Gods chosen people. As I find something's that christians have done such as witch burning's evil. I find the money grubbing of some Jews just as evil and I want to know how much truth is their to it how much propaganda do they lay down in our country manipulating our opinions with this money. No one likes feeling as if they are getting ones side of the story and being made a fool of as to what the facts are. Just to say the Nazi's were evil and leave it at that is not history its jewish propaganda. There must have been some kind of reason for such hate did the snow white innocent jew just move into germany become hated for just being a jew, and become persecuted for nothing more than a religious belief. I don't think this is the way it happen usually something provokes people's thinking. I want to know ALL the history of this subject and I don't like feeling like I could be being duped by paid for jewish propaganda. In the same way that the indigenous people of America were just known as evil savage indians until recently when our people had to own up to some injustices performed against them, when is something like this going to happen for the german people?

Charming, huh? The whole forum is cluttered with nonsense like this. Another:

The deception

In response to those that think evolution real and valid. I've read many of your posts with with total embarrassment and disgust. Evolution and great ages, is one of the biggest deceptions ever conjured up to deceive people. When one really studies it and does not blindly accept it, evolution is impossible and does not make sense. Fact is we are not some cosmic accident, some higher form of "animal" we are wonderfully made. Look around you and at yourself. Take for example your eyes or your brain, (yes, my wife and I DO use ours) or the conception and birth of a child. What about an egg, then into a caterpillar, then into a butterfly or what about how the earth is placed just so in out solar system. A degree too close to the sun, we fry, a degree too far away, we freeze. All these things are the results of chance, mere accident? Hardly. Many scientists and professors don't blindly, stupidly accept macro-evolution. They know it is bogus…

And it just goes on and on from there. It's stunning, in its own way—I don't think I've ever seen such a high density of stupidity since I read the Wizbang blog. I'm not even going to try to deal with it now; I'll wait until the program is aired, and maybe there will be some specific issues that can be dealt with other than that generic angry creationist cluelessness.


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Comments:
#34058: — 08/06  at  07:51 PM
The racism in the first quote is absolutly sickening. Ugh.

-----
"As with all of ID, the important thing is first to have the concept. Production can then follow as a matter of course.” -Dembski



#34059: — 08/06  at  07:57 PM
I think that a lot of this so called science supports a leftist agenda. I am proud of being a white man we have conquered the whole earth and brought forth a civilization unparalleled in history.
But can you conquer the comma?



's avatar #34060: Virge — 08/06  at  07:59 PM
I had to wonder if that first quote was carefully contrived parody. Sadly, parody has become impossible with creationist thinking (and I use that term loosely).



#34061: coturnix — 08/06  at  08:01 PM
I have seen on several places before the tight connection between racism and creationism. I'd like to learn more about the underlying psychology of this phenomenon.



#34062: — 08/06  at  08:04 PM
A degree too close to the sun, we fry, a degree too far away, we freeze.
A degree in what angle?



#34063: Jamie — 08/06  at  08:26 PM
"a degree too close to the sun, we fry, a degree too far away, we freeze."

WTF? From what I recollect from my high school Astronomy class, the Earth revolves around the sun in an elliptical orbit. Therefore, the proximity of the Earth to the Sun changes dramatically throughout the year, yet our seasons are not a result of this, but rather the angle of the Earth on its axis, hence the opposite of seasons in the Northern vs. Southern hemisphere. Ah, crikey. This is getting ridiculous.



#34064: coturnix — 08/06  at  08:28 PM
Racism has been put forward as one of many hypotheses to explain the psychological motivation of creationists. See, for instance this. I have not seen a really good explanation for this, though racist comments by creationists, like the first one quoted in this post, are common on boards and blogs.

Stephen Ducat, in his book "The Wimp Factor" explains creationism as a fear by anxious white males that the mythical animalistically oversexual (and big-penised) black men wil steal white women away. Interesting hypothesis, but I would like to know more.



#34067: Pinko Punko — 08/06  at  08:35 PM
I think the tagline on the show is "has evolution made a monkey out of you? go to blah blah blah.com and have your say." I think I saw that in a print ad for the show. It made me want to throw up. Guess what losers, it doesn't matter what you believe, what is true is true, what is not is not. I fear the whole "believe in G*d, and he is all powerful" thing kind of is training people to just skimp on facts and stuff, by basically saying, what you want to be true will be so, just believe. Those people, while bummed about their descent from earlier hominids/hominoids will not change the fact that that is indeed where they came from. They are sad sad people.



#34069: coturnix — 08/06  at  08:40 PM
The first comment is also very anti-Semitic as well.



#34078: — 08/06  at  09:30 PM
Coturnix is right. Um, I just skimmed that asshat's comments but what does evolution have to do with the Nazi's feeling the Jews stabbed them in the back during the Great War? Huh? And that idiot is wrong, the topic *has* been studied.

I've long thought that the creationist mindset boils down to "I don't want to think that I might be descended from blacks, because that would ultimately make me a...a.." [head explodes]

And, yeah, paragraph breaks are your friend.



#34079: decrepitoldfool — 08/06  at  09:33 PM
the proximity of the Earth to the Sun changes dramatically throughout the year, yet our seasons are not a result of this, but rather the angle of the Earth on its axis, hence the opposite of seasons in the Northern vs. Southern hemisphere.


My son had a science teacher in 4th grade who said the poles were colder because they are farther from the sun than the equator. Brr! I suppose any kind of nonsense can get a hearing.



#34082: Carl Isaacson — 08/06  at  09:42 PM
"I don't want to be black" is a one man argument against intelligent design. If an intelligent designer was watching over every creature's making, he sure missed that one.



#34085: andy — 08/06  at  10:08 PM
I, for one, like the unintended truth in one sentence:

On the contrary we have made great strides in excepting other races and religions among us.

Indeed the white Christians have, indeed they have...



#34089: ekzept — 08/06  at  10:34 PM
actually, the experience of seeing these various creationist folk come out in advance of airing Ape to Man makes me think the entire creationist vs truth thing has to do with sexuality and self-identity more than anything else. i'm coming to see that people who embrace stuff like Christianity, Islam, or Judaism zealously are trying to fill a gap in their sexual lives. like it or not, psychologically, life (= aversion to death) is about SEX.

so, for instance, i suspect the London bombers were simply criminals pushed to their acts by encounters with strong Western women who simply did not sucuumb to the bombers desires and inclinations, despite what the Koran might have to say about the matter.

and i suspect racists and similar folk are threatened in their sexuality by basic illusions regarding prospective competitors prowess or a desire to end-run sexuality by seizing immortality directly, a la Jesus.

surely if such influences and factors can affect something as seemingly peripheral as choice of automotive vehicle, it's plausible it can influence broader and deeper choices.



#34097: Martin Wagner — 08/07  at  12:15 AM
Creationists are simply the stupidest people on the face of the earth. Period. Full stop.



#34099: — 08/07  at  01:07 AM
I mean how disgusted would a black man be to know that his race was once white it sure takes all the pride out of your race and then to even suggest we all were lower forms of life like a damn monkey.


Is he really that stupid? Since the human species originated in Africa, it is rather plausible that we were all black at one stage. Also, I have a tendency to believe that most non-racists wouldn't give a damn about what colour of skin their ancestors had, especially not thousands of years ago.

If being proud of my own race, "I have no right as a white person to have such pride", makes me a racists I guess I am a racists.


As a representative of teh white race, I say that given your contribution, you have absolutely no right to be proud to be a white person. Nor a human, or even a living being.

While I find what the Nazi's did unbelievably evil, as I am a christian and believe that the Jews are Gods chosen people.


So had it been a different group of people, then it would have been OK, as they are not God's chosen people?

I find the money grubbing of some Jews just as evil and I want to know how much truth is their to it how much propaganda do they lay down in our country manipulating our opinions with this money.


Could you be a little more specific - what money grubbing by what Jews? And money grubbing (what ever that is), is equally evil to the Holocaust?
Also, correct me if I am wrong, but is the whole concept of money grubbing to get as much wealth as possible, and not spend it? Then how come that these stereotypical, and apparently Nazi-like in their evil, money grubbing Jews are speding their ill-gotten wealth on propaganda? And what purpose does the propaganda have? What is the goal of it?

No one likes feeling as if they are getting ones side of the story and being made a fool of as to what the facts are. Just to say the Nazi's were evil and leave it at that is not history its jewish propaganda.


You know, he is right. We don't know if they were evil. I mean, I hear that Hitler was kind to animals and his friends' children. Doesn't that count for something? What is the killing of six million Jews, and at least five million other humans compared to that?
If the word 'evil' has any meaning at all, it is to describe people like the Nazis and their deeds. Much like the words 'ignorance' and 'racist' are fit to use to describe the poster.

I think that if too many of these people start posting on behalf of ID Creationism, we'll have a much easier time. I know that some people agreee with him, but even most of them would not state their views so publicly.

Orac, are you going to take this guy to pieces at your blog?



#34100: — 08/07  at  01:28 AM
Oh WOW! That first guy you quote...just wow. How does someone like that even function? All that dumb just simmering away under the surface waiting for release.

Well I am with him on one thing, if he doesn't want to be an ape or black, then that's fine by me. I am perfectly happy not to share a species and an ancestry with the guy. I am also perfectly happy to be an ape, an African ape too, and probably an ape whose ancestors were "black" apes at some point. Is there an excommunication process for people like him? Preferably one with an axe of some description. Only a small axe, I'm not that violent!

It's guys like this that amaze me, it's the complete lack of clues about ANYTHING. In one comment he has ignored all of science, most of ethical philosophy, and is making good inroads on being sickeningly ignorant of history too. Just how much dumb can one individual come out with? As much as I hate to make judgement calls, and as much as I find there is some value in a certain narrow type of relativism when it comes to certain ideas and ethics, this guy and the opinions he has come out with are as invalid, as wrong, as can be. They don't even have recourse to the available evidence, they only serve to alienate and degrade other arbitrary groups of people.

Argh, this is too much idiocy to read with a hangover, I'm off to get some tablets!



#34101: Bourgeois Nerd — 08/07  at  01:36 AM
Oh my! That's really all I can say to those posts.



#34103: — 08/07  at  02:05 AM
"My son had a science teacher in 4th grade who said the poles were colder because they are farther from the sun than the equator. Brr! I suppose any kind of nonsense can get a hearing."

I was flipping through a kid's book on space recently (I work at a bookstore) and it "explained" that astronauts are weightless because they are so far from earth.

I really, really want to hide that book.



#34109: Alon Levy — 08/07  at  03:58 AM
Regarding the first quote: apparently the author of the quote hasn't gotten the memo that Nazism is a natural consequence of evolution.



#34112: tony g — 08/07  at  05:31 AM
did someone punctuate his equilibrium, or did his family tree get mixed up with the sentence diagrams.



#34113: — 08/07  at  05:46 AM
Oh, found a good quote:

Just wanted to say... you people arguing rhohn should be careful throwing the words "fact" and "theory" around and then boasting that you understand the definitions. For anyone in the field of science to label anything as a "fact" would be contrary to the foundational rules of science. NOTHING can be proven, only disproven. Gravity, is a theory, a well tested, seemingly undisprovable event, however, it is not a "fact". Just be careful how you label things.

Also, the reason that evolution is labeled a theory is actually a product of misunderstanding, not a promotion from the science field. People fought the teaching of evolution, but in the end allowed for it to be taught as long as it was taught as a "theory", which was exactly what they did NOT want but were ignorant of the scientific meaning of the word so were ignorant of what exactly they were agreeing to. So, the scientists took it and ran and have been laughing ever since.

I've got to say, rhohn does make a good point, whether he says it in the best way or not, and whether or not any of you will admit it. There just isn't the kind of fossil evidence you would expect from millions of years of evolution.

Also, I think it would be very interesting to confront evolution from a genetic point of view. Many biologists and genetists today agree that the foundational ideas supporting evolution just don't hold up in their fields. Organisms never seem to create new information in their DNA that would be required to create a new species, only lose it. So what exactly are we "observing" in the lab that "proves" evolution true? Often times we only see what we want to see and ignore the obvious contradictions.


Don't you love the way the he totally fails to understand that while scientific theories can't be proven, they are based on observable facts. We can observe that the flu virus evolute (or Darwinate), so it's a fact. We can also observe the fossil records of past species, so we know they existed. Those two facts, as well as many others are used as a basis for the theory of evolution.

I also love the way he explains why evolution is called a theory. Maybe he could explain why it is also called a theory outside the US?

Also, as a layman, I would love to know what kind of fossil record you would expect - maybe he can clearify it? It seems to me that we have quite a few fossil records, spanning quite a few years, but maybe he could tell us more precisely how many is needed?
I am also worried, because I must admit that I don't have a complete fossil record of my family going all the way back to Adam and Eve, so does this mean that my ancestors were spawns of Satan?

In regards to the DNA canard, haven't they gotten tired of it yet? Of course, that paragraphs begs the question, which "biologists and genetists"?



#34115: Alon Levy — 08/07  at  06:01 AM
Actually, the thing about facts vs. theories is misguided. Gravity is a fact: when things are thrown in any direction, they fall down, and based on more recent observations, things are attracted to other things with large masses. Newtonian mechanics, general relativity, and superstring theory are all theories of gravity. Similarly, evolution is a fact: organisms have evolved over billions of years from a common ancestor. Lamarckism, Darwinism, and neo-Darwinism are all theories of evolution.



#34116: hotrockhopper — 08/07  at  06:26 AM
The first poster might be interested to know that while we were all black once, there is also a good chance that we were all white before that. Do you think that makes him slightly happier that white might have come first, or even more enraged that we might actually be related to black people?

I've done a quick post about it here



#34117: Laura — 08/07  at  06:36 AM
I love this: "Evolution and great ages, is one of the biggest deceptions ever conjured up to deceive people."

How about Religion and great white beings in the sky is one of the biggest deceptions ever conjured up to deceive people? Or the opiate of the people? smile These people seem to be on something.



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