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Wednesday, June 22, 2005

Are we ready for the "larger argument"?

I'm baffled by Mark A. R. Kleiman's argument. It doesn't make sense.

Second, Genesis implies that each human being I confront is sacred, again merely as a human being and without any reference to his behavior, status, or appearance. He (or she) is sacred as the Image of God. (C.S. Lewis says in one of his essays that, aside from the consecrated wine and wafer, any individual human being that you meet is the most sacred object you will encounter that day, more sacred than any relic or image.)

Nice sentiment. I agree that this is how idealistic Christianity tries to present itself, and that apologists frequently express these kinds of values.

Insofar as middle-school Darwinism asserts that each of us is merely an animal of a particular species, fundamentally like animals of other species, it undercuts both halves of that double-barreled moral proposition. If I'm merely an animal, why shouldn't I act like one if I feel like it? And, if you're merely an animal, why shouldn't I beat you up, if I'm so inclined and bigger than you are?

Wait a minute here. The Christian point of view gets represented by an expression from one of its more gentle and literate proponents (why not "Neca ecos omnes, Deus suos agnoscet"?), while the naturalistic fallacy and a juvenile misappropriation of biology get propped up in evolution's stead? This isn't exactly setting up a fair comparison, unless he's trying to frame both as completely wrong.

But no. He isn't.

The red team is, I am convinced, wrong to think that believing the account of human origins in Genesis is a necessary condition for behaving well. But red-teamers aren't wrong to think of that account as providing a potentially powerful prop to moral behavior, and can't, therefore, justly be faulted as unreasonable or superstitious for objecting to attempts to kick that prop out from under their children, and other children who are their future fellow-citizens.

The blue team shouldn't back off on its insistence that children be taught accurate biology in biology class, but we should acknowledge that the larger argument isn't really about biology, and cut the folks on the other side some slack rather than dismissing them as ignorant rustics.

Now I'm lost. Kleiman seems conscious of the failure of this biblical moral message…

Of course, support for torture is strongest precisely where opposition to the teaching of evolution is most vehement, suggesting that what seems to me the obvious message of Genesis isn't obvious to everyone who reads -- or pretends to read -- the Bible.

…so how can he then turn around and say that Genesis is "providing a potentially powerful prop to moral behavior"? It clearly isn't. It is a historical, empirical, ongoing failure as a moral force for good.

I agree that the debate isn't about biology. The biology has long been settled, and creationism is as dead as phlogiston. If we're going to try and move on to the "larger argument", and do our best to see that our children are raised with wisdom and morality, that means we should be openly criticizing the hypocrisy of all of the world's major religions, we should be saying how god-belief is the cradle of bigotry and intolerance, we should be ripping away the clots of superstition that are choking our childrens' minds. The blue team should be championing freethought. Let's set forth competing values, legitimate values that we actually support with our actions and not just our mouths, ideals based on reason and evidence.

If the other side really isn't made up of "ignorant rustics," they should respect that, right?

I suspect, though, that any forthright opposition to religious dogma would not only set the "ignorant rustics" of the Right to squalling even more furiously, but would have the equally ignorant rustics of the Left squealing craven apologies and rushing to prove their greater piety.

It's all well and good to talk about acknowledging the larger argument, but we know what that larger argument is, and it's easier for most people to avoid it. Biology is merely a proxy right now, a battleground where mealy-mouthed creationists can lie about evidence and nibble at the truth instead of engaging in the real war: Enlightenment vs. Theocracy. Reason vs. Superstition. Mankind vs. Gods.


Here is my latest response to another Kleiman sally.


Trackback url: http://pharyngula.org/index/trackback/2458/5hvEz1yv/

Comments:
#29394: — 06/22  at  10:43 AM
I agree: what the hell is Kleiman talking about when it comes to describing what science tells us about ourselves?

Big letters for doofuses: SCIENCE IS NOT AN ALTERNATIVE VALUE SYSTEM!!! It's a means for determining the facts about the world in which we live. It isn't a value system. It isn't a value system! How stupid must someone be to think that it is? Certainly, one's value system can have within it a strong respect for the principles of scientific inquiry and objective facts. But that's not the same thing as saying that the strict scientific description of my genetic relationship to my parents is what science demands I accept as the be all and end all of how I feel about them. That's utterly insane. Who comes UP with this nonsense?



#29396: — 06/22  at  11:07 AM
Great post!

"If I'm merely an animal, why shouldn't I act like one if I feel like it? And, if you're merely an animal, why shouldn't I beat you up, if I'm so inclined and bigger than you are?" Talk about mixing apples and oranges. Our status as animals is not an empirical warrant for immoral behavior and looking to evolutionary theory for props to justify morality displays an ignorance of science.



#29397: coturnix — 06/22  at  11:25 AM
Actually, looking at child-rearing studies, using props (like the Bible, etc.) for teaching morality, leads to innability to behave morally EXCEPT when someone stronger is watching, i.e., develops 'external locus of morality' that has to be constantly checked by others, vs. 'internal locus of morality' which develops with child-rearing techniques not dependent on props. This is highly oversimpified, but essentialy correct.



's avatar #29398: Ken Cope — 06/22  at  11:28 AM
As long as he wants to play that game, religions provide the ethic of "Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out" that has everybody popping magically back to life in Hebbin after a fatal game of ring around the rosies in this pretend life that we see only through a mirror darkly.



#29399: — 06/22  at  11:30 AM
Whats troubling is people like this obviously DON'T observe nature at all. Animals do not routinely 'beat up' members of their own species. They have a social order that enables survival. Why does he think it would be any different minus superstition? Perhaps it says more about his own inner demons?

'Biology is merely a proxy right now, a battleground where mealy-mouthed creationists can lie about evidence and nibble at the truth instead of engaging in the real war: Enlightenment vs. Theocracy. Reason vs. Superstition. Mankind vs. Gods.'

Great sentence. I have met people who thought if they had sex with a girl they were magically married, I know of a person who committed suicide when his church told him he couldn't stay with his new wife after his previous marriage ended 20years earlier. Superstition leads to alot of real world pain.


I'm with PZ creationism is simply a cover for the fact people are scared what they have been told for their entire lives isn't necessarily so.

If God is forgiveness and love what a great being he would be, but the worlds religions are so often not any of that.



#29401: coturnix — 06/22  at  11:53 AM
Slightly OT, but
this letter to teh editor is great - very funny.



#29402: — 06/22  at  12:06 PM
I read the post, and agree with you about the moral power of religion -- experience and observation teach othewise. However, I do strongly agree with Kleiman's criticism of christians who do not follow their own religion, who, in fact, don't even know what their own religion teaches, but who all the while try to teach (or force) us to behave as they order. And then, to top it all, they parade their own virtue before the world. As I have said many times before, they had better hope that the god they claim to believe in does not exist, because if he does, they will be in big trouble when they meet him.



's avatar #29407: Stephen Stralka — 06/22  at  12:55 PM
Such silliness. Afarensis and Uber have it right. It doesn’t even mean anything to talk about humans being “merely animals,” since the concept “animal” covers such an enormous range of different behaviors. When people complain about humans being perceived as “merely animals,” they seem to think this means humans, as animals, would necessarily be expected to act like great white sharks or rabid hyenas. It makes just as much sense, though, to assume that if humans are “merely animals,” then we should be acting like sea anemones or sponges.

Human beings are animals, of course, but we’re animals who have evolved big brains, language, civilization, science, art, culture and, yes, morality. However you want to account for the origin of ethics and morals, it is simply an observable fact that humans all around the world do follow codes of behavior. Recognizing that those codes of behavior don’t come from God doesn’t make them go away, and it doesn’t make them any less important.



#29409: — 06/22  at  01:07 PM
Of course there is no reason in Christianity to hitch the Image of God (whatever that really means) to material origins. God can "make man in our image" entirely independent of how either the Genesis narrative says God made Adam's physical body or of how science shows us to have decended from a common ancestor of all life. The Image of God is about God's action to establish a spiritual relationship with mankind in a manner only God is capable of . It has little if anything to do with mundane material origins.
And please, know that I'm not trying to convince anyone of the veracity of the above ideas; I'm just pointing out that an understanding of the Image of God in no way needs to be regarded as in conflict with the scientific view of human origins.



#29410: — 06/22  at  01:14 PM
Acting like an animal is fine! We are the descendants of social primates. The "golden rule" is simply an elaborate, bigger-brained version of mutual grooming. As an atheist, I acknowledge only this one shot at existence. My first thought is to do as little damage as possible, inflict as little pain as possible, to other persons or creatures. Living your life can't be accomplished without killing and cruelty in some form or other, but if I thought that a God could make it all better in an afterlife, I'd be giving it much less thought.



#29411: — 06/22  at  01:17 PM
"Human beings are animals, of course, but we’re animals who have evolved big brains, language, civilization, science, art, culture and, yes, morality. However you want to account for the origin of ethics and morals, it is simply an observable fact that humans all around the world do follow codes of behavior. Recognizing that those codes of behavior don’t come from God doesn’t make them go away, and it doesn’t make them any less important."

Exactly! It goes without saying that the choice of how we behave and what we consider moral rests with us.



#29414: — 06/22  at  01:37 PM
Oh, well. A lot of otherwise intelligent people at least pretend to find sufficient ethical praiseworthiness in religion, whether "Judeo-Christian" or generic, to allow it some special status in the discussion. Whether this is from genuine ignorance, immersion in the culture since childhood, or unwillingness to pick fights unnecessarily varies with the individual.

Kleiman, as you might guess, isn't a Christian, so he doesn't really fit in category (2). My guess is a mixture of (1) and (3).



#29422: — 06/22  at  02:26 PM
I'd like to call attention to the discomfort that Straussians repeatedly demonstrate with basic facts of biology. This would be consistent with the suspicion that Straussian intellectuals reject evolution because they fear it to be a truth dangerous to men's rights.

Consider the following individuals:

Harvey Mansfield: His book Machiavelli's Virtue is nothing less than brilliant. When I read it, I imagined that it would be a terrific intellectual treat to get an unsurpassed Machiavellian humanist like Mansfield together with a superb evolutionary biologist like E.O. Wilson. My only reason for not suggesting an event like this was that I feared that these two would have little on which to disagree. Then I ran into Mansfield's "sermon" in which he argues that science should submit to the Abrahamic religions from which it sprang!

If science is a woman, then she is a woman who, like fortune, "lets herself be won" by those who command her. She is certainly not a woman who bears unmanly rejection of the sort suggested in Mansfield's sermon, for if scorned, will direct her attention and pleasures to others more virtuous.

Kleiman's sentiments dovetail with Mansfield's "sermon." Other than this, Mansfield's views on the public treatment of scientific facts are not known, but his analysis of the necessity of religion for rulers is plainspoken:

In that management [ruling] religion or its like is an indispensable instrument. Religion makes men faithful to the gods, and hence to the men the gods recommend. ... Only when rulers see or sense that men obey themselves in obeying necessity can human necessity appear as the foundation of human freedom. [Machiavelli's Virtue, page 76]


Irving Kristol and Gertrude Himmelfarb: The parents of Mansfield's student William Kristol, Straussian editor of the Weekly Standard. Gertrude Himmelfarb wrote an anti-Darwinian book that seriously misrepresents evolutionary theory and is commonly cited by contemporary creationists.

Irving Kristol, though I'm not sure if his views on science ever made it to print, was quoted by Ronald Bailey in his Reason magazine article saying:

If there is one indisputable fact about the human condition it is that no community can survive if it is persuaded--or even if it suspects--that its members are leading meaningless lives in a meaningless universe."

There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn't work.


Mark A.R. Kleiman: I don't know if Mark regards himself as a Straussian—he says he was Mansfield's student. His blog post sure appears to put him in the camp of Straussians uncomfortable with the facts of nature. The comment that I found most objectionable in Mark's post is:

But red-teamers aren't wrong to think of [Genesis] as providing a potentially powerful prop to moral behavior


A cursory glance at Mark's blog shows that he knows his history, which undermines absolutely any claim of a Biblically-inspired moral foundation. Stephen Weinberg's retort to this sentiment is "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

I would have to agree with Mark if he replaced the word "moral" with "political".

Personally, I just don't get it. I think anyone who listens to what Strauss says about the classics, then goes and looks for themselves can't help but being bowled over by the multiple levels and clever ironies that permeate these great works. How this has translated into Straussian evolution-fear is beyond me.

The first duty of a ruler is defense, and in a modern technological world, ignoring basic facts of science is dangerous and disgraceful.

Mansfield is has a forthcoming book out on the Straussian subject of manliness (Yale; see his recent essay on the manliness of Teddy Roosevelt for a preview). I have no doubts that this will be an insightful bit of research, but I will also be reading between the lines for Mansfield's views on the source of our manliness.



#29425: Arun — 06/22  at  02:56 PM
I think the problem with religion is that it assigns one virtue merely for holding a belief, or makes belief a pre-condition for virtue. But it is what one does that determines whether one is a moral person or not.



#29426: Andrew Brown — 06/22  at  02:59 PM
But the Straussians are entirely right. Like the man said, all religions are equally true to the multitude, false to the philosopher, and useful to the ruler. So why not admit this?

Someone is bound to say that a nation of ignorant idiots will fall behind in competition with better educated biology-believing nations. This is true. But it's hardly a moral argument. It's every bit as utlitarian as the Straussian view.



#29427: decrepitoldfool — 06/22  at  03:00 PM
The whole discussion about whether evolutionary biology leads to a desireable morality has no relevance to whether or not it is true. If gravitational theory led to monstrous behavior, would that mean it wasn't true? Or just that some people are jerks?



#29428: — 06/22  at  03:31 PM
Someone is bound to say that a nation of ignorant idiots will fall behind in competition with better educated biology-believing nations.


Apropos of this, the GeomBlog's RSS sent me this post and links this morning:

Chris Mooney's pointer to the ACLU report "Science Under Siege".

Steve Forbes's editorial on new government policies that intimidate and discourage brain drain immigrants to the U.S. By the way, I'm really glad that Forbes is saying this now, because back in the late 90s, he was shilling for the creationists.

I like Straussian language, so I'll say it again:

Science is a woman who, like fortune, "lets herself be won" by those who command her. She is certainly not a woman who bears unmanly rejection of the sort Forbes suggested, for if scorned, will direct her attention and pleasures to others more virtuous.

Whom do you want to manage public health and biowarfare defense? A government that accepts scientific facts about the origin and evolution of the Ebola and Marburg viruses? Or a government that believes that the veracity of these these facts should be left to local decisions?



#29430: Bryson Brown — 06/22  at  05:21 PM
The Straussian curriculum ignores some key classics in political thought-- Hobbes, Locke and Hume come to mind. Yet these figures, who combine a rigourous kind of common-sense, a modestly empirical concern for what works and a focus on the human individual, are (I think) central to liberal democratic thought (and so to present-day U.S., Canadian, British etc. political institutions). I think that Strauss's Platonic elitism provides a recipe (and for some, an excuse) for systematic deception as a fundamental part of politics-- which is, I think, a very substantial threat to democracy. IMO, this is ugly stuff, even if intellectually subtle and sophisticated, and it's not just a threat to science.



#29439: — 06/22  at  07:50 PM
...red-teamers aren't wrong to think of that account as providing a potentially powerful prop to moral behavior...

The Genesis et seq. account is one of slavery, genocide, & rapine; its closest approach to any sort of positive social value is a primary emphasis on rigid tribal loyalty, and that's (at best) long past its time.

Is there any other origin myth in the world so pathological as to state the Creator hates, and has put a curse on, the entire human race? What does that do to the mentality of anyone unfortunate enough to take it seriously?



#29443: Wayne — 06/22  at  08:11 PM
When it comes right down to it, the worst, least-civilized, most shockingly immoral behavior seems to come from the bible-thumpers. Give me scientific explanations any day.



#29444: coturnix — 06/22  at  08:15 PM
Teedy Roosevelt could not win a race for dog-cather because he was seen as effeminate. This was before TV, so the opinions were just local. In order to win, he reinvented himself as a rough macho man. He bought a ranch in South Dakota, put on a Stetson hat, and rode around the ranch for the photographers. That is where the whole mystique of his manliness comes from: some early equivalent of Karl Rove and the PR machine of the time.

Speaking of Rove, he did exactly the same thing with GWB, who was considered a sissy: he made him buy the farm in Crawford, wear a big belt buckle and swagger around. Unfortunately, he could not get GWB on a horse - sissy remains a sissy.



Trackback: Looks Can Be Deceiving Tracked on: Abnormal Interests (64.81.36.251) at 2005 06 22 20:46:18
Mark Kleiman has published a piece on his blog that is causing some controversy among the members of the "reality-based community" of which I hope I am a member. The major starting point of his discussion is; The Book of...



#29471: coturnix — 06/23  at  12:42 AM
The Lefty Christians are mad at the Religious Right and are getting organized. They also have a blog, and a recent post tackles creationism.



#29476: — 06/23  at  01:56 AM
"But red-teamers aren't wrong to think of that account [Genesis] as providing a potentially powerful prop to moral behavior, and can't, therefore, justly be faulted as unreasonable or superstitious for objecting to attempts to kick that prop out from under their children, and other children who are their future fellow-citizens."

Two questions. One- do we want or need "props" for moral behavior? The carrot-and-stick of religion evolved naturally from a primitive worldview, and was a powerful organizer of human society, for good and ill. Nowadays we should know better.
Two- when do we stop being "children"? Of course, we tell children to do things, or not do things, before they can understand the rationale behind the morals. But if we are good parents, we explain as much as we can, as soon as we can, so that our children grow up thinking for themselves. Otherwise, children remain children, and cannot become fellow-citizens.

Btw- my attempts to use html produced bizarre effects in the preview- is it me, or is something different here?



#29479: Alon Levy — 06/23  at  03:37 AM
Will you please stop talking about red-teamers and blue-teamers? When you use these terms it gives the impression that you think that there's an actual difference between the Democrats and the Republicans.

About Straussianism, it's not very surprising that it rejects basic scientific facts when you consider its origins. Plato, after all, was highly anti-scientific and viewed the material world as a shadow of the ideal world. Scientists only study shadows in his view; philosophers study the real world. When you don't care for facts, you can get beautiful, wrong metaphors about how society should be organized and how people should behave. Science, in this case sociology, has the nasty tendency to destroy such illusions, in this case that authoritarianism works.



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