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Saturday, October 01, 2005

Behe at the MacLaurin Institute

Behe's talk at the MacLaurin Institute ("Bringing God into the marketplace of ideas by communicating the Christian worldview with its transforming potential") last night exceeded my expectations of suckiness. It was an evening of phony rhetoric, smug self-aggrandizement, and utter vacuity—and the audience of complacent Christians ate it up. That part of the audience that consisted of atheists and competent scientists and, I presume, honest Christians found it appalling.

I won't try to do a full blow-by-blow here; it's the same tired schtick Behe has been doing for ten years, right down to the same lame jokes, so it's too boring to repeat. I'll just break it down into his major themes.

"Machines, machines, machines." There was no actual data presented anywhere in this talk. The core of it was an extended logical fallacy, nothing more, repeating the "machine" mantra of his NY Times op-ed and quote-mining respected biologists like Dawkins and Alberts.

His game begins with Mt. Rushmore. Look at Mt. Rushmore; it's complicated and contains specific, recognizable forms; therefore it is designed. This is the key first step in his rhetoric, getting the audience to agree that because something looks designed, therefore it was designed. Of course, he's glossing over the fact that we also know that Gutzon Borglum hit that mountain with dynamite and jackhammers, and that the mountain is shaped in specific ways that other mountains in our experience are not, and that it has been given a detailed resemblance to specific organic forms with which we are familiar…we have evidence that it was designed and built by an intelligent agent. That wouldn't serve his purpose, though, so he plays the game of claiming we know it is designed just by looking at it.

Then he throws out a picture of a bacterial flagellum, and claims that because it looks complicated and machine-like, it is therefore designed. One big problem: knowing that one complicated thing (Mt. Rushmore) is designed does not mean that every complicated thing is designed. He has not established the premise of his argument.

He went on and on with the misleading comparisons, talking of the cell as filled with highways and trucks and factories and all kinds of machines, and quoting Dawkins and Alberts as using the word "machines". To Behe, machines must be the product of purposeful design, and therefore every time Richard Dawkins uses the word "machine", he is validating Behe. This is dishonest nonsense, of course—he is loading his use of the word "machine" with a bunch of rhetorical baggage that Dawkins and Alberts are not. His audience of religious fans, though, share that baggage so it sails through without a complaint.

"I'm smarter than Russ Doolittle." Much of his talk was taken up with smarmy pats on his own back over Russ Doolittle. Doolittle did muddle up some comments on an experiment on the blood clotting pathway, but Behe used some sloppy wording to ride roughshod over the experiment itself. This gaffe is explained in much detail at the Panda's Thumb, so I'll just give the short version.

Behe has described his concept of irreducible complexity operationally as, "If a part is missing, the system wouldn't work at all"—there are no degrees of functionality, it is intolerant of damage and simply collapses. He has said the blood clotting system is irreducibly complex. A series of experiments, in which two factors in the blood clotting system, fibrinogen and plasminogen, were mutated, show some difficulties with that idea: fibrinogen deficient mice have problems, a propensity for bleeding (as might expected), but the surprising thing is that they survive quite well in the lab. Plasminogen deficient mice have more serious problems, but a further surprise: double mutants, mice lacking both fibrinogen and plasminogen, look like the fibrinogen deficient mice—relatively normal superficially, but with a compromised clotting system that doesn't work as well.

Behe practically crowed in triumph as he showed a partial quote from Russ Doolittle that said the fibrinogen deficient mice were "normal", and showed lists of things that were wrong in their phenotype; he claimed that Doolittle had completely misread the paper, and oooh, but isn't Mike Behe a clever one for catching a bigshot in a goof? I tried to ask a question of Behe on this at the end. Unfortunately, I wasn't asked, but I did confront him after the talk on this one. Here's a paraphrase of the conversation:


me: You weren't complete in your description of the phenotype. If you'd had a cage of fibrinogen deficient mice here, what would they look like?
Behe: They'd look all right.
me: You mean, they'd look normal?
Behe: Yes.

Hmmm. Maybe Doolittle's wording wasn't such a mistake after all. I also pointed out that the quote from Doolittle that he put up there was incomplete, and that after the part where he said the mice were normal, he qualified it by saying,

No one doubts that mice deprived of these two genes would be compromised in the wild, but the mere fact that they appear normal in the laboratory setting is a striking example of the point and counterpoint, step-by-step scenario in reverse!

Behe denied knowing anything about that, and said his quotation was complete and not at all misleading.

I reminded him of his own definition of irreducible complexity: "If a part is missing, the system wouldn't work at all". These mice were clearly alive, superficially indistinguishable from wild type mice, and seemed to be "working" quite well. Doesn't that point, which he glossed over completely in order to gloat over a contrived misreading of Doolittle, mean the clotting system isn't IC after all?

Behe then did the same thing he has always done when confronted with these kinds of data…he ducked and moved the goalposts. The pathway is broken, therefore it is still irreducibly complex. I explained that that was irrelevant, all evolution would care about is the viability of the organism, and that what these kinds of experiments show is a partial reduction in health, not the absolute eradication his definition demands, but he just waffled about pathways and molecules again. He looked very nervous, though, and I think he was aware that he was on shaky ground. (Dave Puskala, who was there, said Behe looked uncomfortable, and allows that I handed him his ass.)

"What hypothesis?" While I had him on the ropes, I asked him another question, one that was key to his whole approach. I pointed out that his entire seminar consisted of trashing evolutionary theory, claiming it couldn't happen, etc., yet the title of his talk was "Toward an Intelligent Understanding of the Intelligent Design Hypothesis". What was his specific, testable hypothesis for the origin of the blood clotting system? His answer: "It was designed." I hammered a little harder, and said that was neither specific nor testable—when, where, how was it designed? How would I test it or find evidence for it? He mumbled something very peculiar…"That's about origins. We don't speculate about origins."

In other words, he's got nothin'.

Behe talked for an hour, and in all that time he didn't give one specific hypothesis, he didn't describe any evidence, and he didn't propose one single line of research that an ID-friendly scientist could follow. This was a completely empty talk, a hollow shell with a few buzzwords and fallacious analogies to make his cheerleaders happy. He's a fraud.


I can't say that it was an entirely wasted evening, though. I learned that Intelligent Design creationism is still dead in the water, and that one of the few legitimately credentialed scientists working within the movement is still an empty babbler without a whisper of scientific support; the most amusing part of the talk was his opening line, when he gave a disclaimer that the provost of his university wanted him to say, that his views do not represent Lehigh University.

Before the talk, I also spent several pleasant hours conversing with Mike Mosedale of the City Pages. I might have an interview appearing there sometime in the near future. Mike seemed like a nice fellow, so I don't think it will be a hatchet job (although that might be much more exciting than an interview with a mild-mannered nerd.)

After the talk, I got to visit with August Berkshire, Kristine Harley, Eva Young, and Dave Puskala (who gave me several bottles of his homebrew…that alone was enough to make the long drive and the tedious lecture worth it) at an informal meeting of the Campus Atheists and Secular Humanists. It's too bad that it takes the threat of dishonest dreck from a creationist to drag me out to Minneapolis.


Trackback url: http://pharyngula.org/index/trackback/3036/V5a4MJ1S/

Comments:
#42349: Alon Levy — 10/01  at  09:24 AM
Just curious: is there a scientific explanation of the evolution of the flagellum, and if there is, what is it?



#42350: — 10/01  at  09:33 AM
Heh, when it comes to an ID explanation of ANY biological process, all ID can do is point to the spot on the blackboard that says "Then A Miracle Occurs". It is a profoundly anti-science agenda that Behe is shilling shamelessly for, and no wonder Lehigh insists on Behe's disclaimer.



#42351: Kele — 10/01  at  09:42 AM
Did the word "evolution" ever appear by itself? It ALWAYS seemed to be accompanied by a Darwin-related term. That was probably the one major thing I noticed above all the others. One can speak about evolution without mentioning Darwin.

Behe wasn't aware of what Doolittle said after the incomplete quote he gave? Even I've read it. The man needs to do a better job.



's avatar #42352: Zeno — 10/01  at  09:44 AM
At least Behe's shtick is irreducible, albeit not complex.

As for Sidney Harris's famous cartoon, a copy is posted here.



's avatar #42353: Zeno — 10/01  at  09:52 AM
Alan, you can read about the developmental of bacterial flagella (as a possible co-option of structures that originally had a different purpose) by going here.



#42354: — 10/01  at  09:52 AM

"That's about origins. We don't speculate about origins."

So he admits that the title of his talk is fraudulent.

Why this keeps coming up: Creationists frequently claim that evolution does not explore the origin of life, therefore the whole theory is somehow invalid and can be ignored. This is a load of hogwash. It is saying "If wedon't know everything, then we know nothing". EVEN IF science had no evidence or theories concerning the origin of life, that would do nothing to negate the huge collection of evidences for common ancestry and natural selection.

There are in fact some scientific theories regarding the origin of life, but the evidence is not as solid as that for evolution. Many scientists are unconfortable discussing highly speculative work, out of concern that uneducated listeners will confuse solid work with speculation. And yet, you can find several books on the topic by reputable scientists.

Behe is throwing this taunt back at scientists, "No I'm not, you are". The problem is, he has nothing but origins to discuss, and if he cannot discuss it, then listening to his talk is a complete waste of time.



's avatar #42355: PZ Myers — 10/01  at  09:55 AM
We do not have the complete, step-by-step description of flagellar evolution that they demand. Of course, I also do not know my great-great-great-grandmother's name, but that doesn't mean my lineage was miraculously created a mere four generations ago. We have plausible explanations and the evidence of homologies (for instance, with the type III secretion system) that support an evolutionary explanation.

No, evolution was not mentioned alone. Everything was Darwin, Darwinism, Darwinian, Darwinist.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#42356: Kele — 10/01  at  10:06 AM
Oh, it was obvious his whole argument was based on a logical fallacy. "Darwinists haven't come up with an explanation for this or for that, so it must have been intelligent design!" That's just leaking with the argument from ignorance. I should've tried to ask him about that. Oh well.



#42357: charlie wagner — 10/01  at  10:34 AM
Paul wrote:

"Dave Puskala, who was there, said Behe looked uncomfortable, and allows that I handed him his ass."

So I guess that I'm the only person who disagrees with you who hasn't had his ass handed to him by you.

Care to try?

Living systems are unevolvable. They are made up of structures and processes integrated in such a way that they not only support each other, but they contribute to the overall function of the living system. This type of organization, in which means are adapted to ends and multiple structures and processes perform multiple functions, all of which contribute to the overall functioning of the organism are unattainable by any kind of random process or chance occurrence. It requires insight and insight means intelligence. There's simply no way to get around that basic point. There's no empirical evidence of any kind establishing a supportable nexus between mutation, selection, drift or gene duplication and the emergence of highly organized systems such as those found in living organisms.

Ha! Beaten by a cretin. Man, that must sting!



Trackback: Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose Tracked on: stranger fruit (129.219.245.62) at 2005 10 01 10:17:53
Over at Pharyngula, PZ details his experiences with listening to Behe give a talk in Minnesotta - at the MacLaurin Institute - last night. Not surprisingly, he wasn't impressed, but what is interesting is how Behe failed to provide any explicit theory ...



#42358: John Timmer — 10/01  at  10:48 AM
Charlie, do you ever have anything informative to add? Or does repeating the same unsupported and highly questionable claims somehow provide you with a degree of satisfaction?

On the flagellar issue, i know a bit about the Eukaryotic cillia due to their involvement in Shh signaling, but i don't know anything about the structure/function of Prokaryotic flagellar proteins. Is there anyone who has a good reference or link to point me to so i can look that over?



's avatar #42359: PZ Myers — 10/01  at  10:52 AM
Here.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#42360: — 10/01  at  11:00 AM
'We don't speculate about origins.'

Or design, which is what the question was.

Charlie don't you ever get tired of picking one of the definitions of irreducible complexity which gets shattered every other week?

-Schmitt.



#42361: — 10/01  at  11:11 AM
" Ha! Beaten by a cretin. Man, that must sting!"

I think your self proclamed title of "cretin" says it all.



#42362: charlie wagner — 10/01  at  11:12 AM
John Timmer,
I give up.

Where's the bridge?



#42363: — 10/01  at  11:13 AM
....unattainable by any kind of random process or chance occurrence. It requires insight...

Charlie, you're silly.



#42364: — 10/01  at  11:23 AM
No, evolution was not mentioned alone. Everything was Darwin, Darwinism, Darwinian, Darwinist.

There’s that “D” word along with the “E” word, both not to be mentioned in polite company. Both produce a knee jerk reaction in the public because of misinformation. The question arises, how to educate a public which has little time and no inclination to learn about evolutionary theory? How does one present evolutionary theory in a manner that is straight forward, makes sense, and not threatening? Something that can be discussed in polite company.



#42365: Ithika — 10/01  at  11:33 AM
I'd like, if I may, to bring up the Giant's Causeway as an example of something which looks designed even when you know it wasn't. Even when you know there's a perfectly reasoned geological argument for the formation of those rocks, it looks like a vast collection of man-made paving stones.



#42366: — 10/01  at  11:42 AM
When Behe gave a talk at UC Davis back in the spring I asked him how he accounted for various sea mammals not having the Hagemann factor. He weaseled out by saying that some animals may have compensating mechanisms that we don't understand yet. Unfortunately I didn't think to follow up with asking him why mouse blood is ok to substitute for how human clotting works but whale blood apparantly isn't good enough for us.



#42367: — 10/01  at  11:45 AM
The Giants Causeway is an excellent example, and for a long time was considered 'intelligently designed' by the locals. Its easy to attribute things you don't understand to the supernatural (giants in this case). Can we run the Causeway through the 'design filter thingy (c)' to see if we can get a false positive? What there isn't one? Dembski's moved into peddling crap flash arcade games and hawking T-shirts, Mugs, etc?



#42368: Kagehi — 10/01  at  11:46 AM
You have had your ass handed to you several times Charlie, the problem is like all delusional people, you think 'being' the person described in the following quote is a sign of genius:

"Men occasionally stumble over the thruth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing happened." - Winston Churchill

This is in fact exactly what you do. Whenever confronting with a contradiction to your loonacy, in which you fall on your face, you get up, brush yourself off, claim that the bruises and scrapes on your legs where simply *designed*, then wander off again, until you fall over the next rock in the path. It was quite funny a month ago, when I first started reading here, now its a bit like being constantly confronted, everytime I walk out my front door, with a some guy in a clown suit whose only skills involve a squirting flower and some horriblly done miming.

Any priest or shaman must be presumed guilty until proved innocent - Robert A. Heinlein



#42369: John Timmer — 10/01  at  11:51 AM
Charlie - If you notice, if i post a claim here, it's generally backed by an example or data (i've provided several links to you in the past). You, in contrast, mistake natural selection for a completely random process, and make claims about what is possible without any data to support those claims. You've apparently already paid for and built your own bridge to nowhere.

Another few links for you - the latest issue of Science: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/current/. There's an article that shows how weak selective adaptations can be enhanced by the heat shock protein HSP90, allowing them to keep the organism alive long enough for further changes to convert it to a strong selective advantage. Surf over to a previous issue (http://www.sciencemag.org/content/vol309/issue5742/index.shtml), and you'll see that the fly immune system generates diverse receptor molecules via alternative transcript splicing. This goes against Behe's argument that antibody diversity is irreducibly complex because you need both variable segments and a recombination system. Here, there's a strong selection for variable segments with NO need for a DNA recombination mechanism.

One more system not irreducibly complex. The god of the gaps argument forced out of another gap. Must get depressing after a while for those who actually believe it.


PZ - Thanks for the link - i'm mostly interested in the ATP-powered aspects and any equivalent of the IFT system so i'd imagine they'd be part of the secretase system or that article will contain a link to a review.



#42370: QrazyQat — 10/01  at  12:01 PM
Ah, this Charlie fellow, poor guy. What he claims as impossible is of course a feedback system which by the most incredible coincidence is precisely what evolutionary theorists have described for ... well, even before Darwin that much was already figured out -- that the system was a feedback syste (Lamarck's ideas were an attempt to explain how this sort of thing worked; Darwin showed how such a system would and could work). And this "unattainable by any kind of random process or chance occurrence" is also part of evolutionary theory, since evolutionary theory has pretty much always (even before Darwin) dealt with evolution as a non-random process which doesn't need "then a miracle happened" inserted all the time.



#42371: Kagehi — 10/01  at  12:01 PM
In fact Charlie, you remind me of the 'believer' described in an article in the Skeptic Magazine article "Tilting Pictures and Fruitless Pursuits" pp37-41 Vol. 11 No. 4.

The skeptic concluded that the paintings in an old house where shifting due to vibrations and the tendency of the woman that hung most of them to place the wire 'slightly' off center in the same direction every time. Others shifted in other directions, having been hung 'prior' to her taking over. All used the old wire on a nail system. The 'believer' friend he had helping him insisted instead that a) picture shifting represented an exciting new way to interpret messages from ghosts and b) his friends insistence that it was merely the handedness of the picture hanger was irrelevant, since it didn't consider the handedness of the *spirit* that was moving the pictures... The fact that 'fixing' the wires, so the painting where no longer off center halted *all* supposed spirit activity was also considered irrelevant, just like 'any' and 'all' explainations of anything with evolution, instead of design, gets completely ignored by our local fool in a clown suit.

Any priest or shaman must be presumed guilty until proved innocent - Robert A. Heinlein



#42372: charlie wagner — 10/01  at  12:02 PM
John Timmer,

I meant this bridge:

mysite.verizon.net/jtimmer/images/rainbow_sunset.jpg



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