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Saturday, July 02, 2005

Biology as Ideology

Since people are talking about Alon Levy's essay, Biology Is Not Ideology, a critique of Lewontin's Biology As Ideology: The Doctrine of DNA, I thought I'd open up a thread for it here.

Maybe later, when I get a chance, I'll throw in my two cents about the book, too.


Oh, heck, here's a little bit of a critique.

I'm going to have to disagree completely with Alon—he has misread the book. He says he read it expecting to find it "full of cheap shots at science" and concludes that "Lewontin is a popularizer of anti-science". I have the advantage of being familiar with Lewontin's work, though. He is the Alexander Aggasiz Research Professor at the Museum of Comparative Zoology, Harvard University. He has an incredible research record. He is most definitely not anti-science, anti-evolution, or anti-genetics—he has been a pioneer in those fields. He's a very smart cookie and a great writer. He also has his own biases—he's Marxist and proud of it—and isn't immune to error. But viewing this book through the lens of an assumption that Lewontin penned an anti-science screed has distorted his interpretations.

For instance, take a look at the conclusion of Lewontin's first chapter.

While these examples are meant to disillusion the reader about the objectivity and vision of transcendent truth claimed by scientists, they are not intended to be antiscientific or to suggest that we should give up science in favor of, say, astrology or thinking beautiful thoughts. Rather, they are meant to acquaint the reader with the truth about science as a social activity and to promote reasonable skepticism about the sweeping claims that modern science makes to an understanding of human existence. There is a difference between skepticism and cynicism, for the former can lead to action and the latter only to passivity. So these pages have a political end, too, which is to encourage the readers not to leave science to the experts, not to be mystified by it, but to demand a sophisticated scientific understanding in which everyone can share.

This mistake runs throughout Alon's essay. Over and over again, he accuses Lewontin of "attacking" science, for example,

Besides attacking the fundamental tenets of scientific research, the book also attacks certain specific concepts, which I will deal with now. First, I will talk about the heritability of IQ, which Lewontin denies; and then, I will defend the Human Genome Project, which he attacks as useless and ideological.

This is most peculiar. A biologist well known for the rigor of his research is attacking fundamental tenets of research? Where? You won't find it anywhere in Biology as Ideology, I'm afraid. Instead, Lewontin is criticizing flawed assumptions drawn from modern science.

IQ is a good example, but I'd rather not get into that long muddle right now. Alon makes a number of mistakes here, taking for granted that "heritability" means what he thinks it means ("heritability" is a very narrow, specific parameter in genetics, one that is frequently conveniently elided to new colloquial meanings by those who want to argue for racial theories of intelligence), that twin studies have adequately excluded environmental factors, and even that we can realistically dissociate the innate from the environmental. One of the things that Lewontin hammers on repeatedly is that latter misconception; it's one of the major ideological fallacies of much of modern biology.

Alon's claim that Lewontin attacks the HGP as useless is false, and that it is ideological is simply correct.

What Lewontin actually criticizes about the HGP are the claims that it will teach us "how life works" or that it will provide a "complete blueprint" for humanity. I suspect that he actually feels about genomic data as I do: it's a wonderful, powerful tool for comparative research, it tells us much about our genetic history, and it is a major aid for doing science, but it tells us nothing about individuals and has a long, long way to go before we understand all those other processes and interactions that are necessary for a cell to function. It's grossly incomplete.

Where ideology comes into play is in the reluctance to recognize that last fact. But of course ideology biases science. Of course economics and ideological expectations warp what kind of science gets funded. To deny that the Human Genome Project was driven by ideological issues is to deny reality. It doesn't mean it was useless or that we haven't gained anything from it. We should be aware that many of the central advocates of the HGP profited hugely from it. Ideology is everywhere, and it doesn't help to turn a blind eye to it.

For instance, Science recently published their Top 25 Questions Facing Science and one of them had me flabbergasted: Why Do Humans Have So Few Genes? That isn't a science question at all—it's more sociology than anything. It's all about the surprise to many scientists that we "only" had 25-30,000 genes. I run into these strange articles all the time where people try to rationalize this, as if it were some problem that fish and mustard plants have more genes than we do. But why should we expect people to have more genes than a pufferfish? Why is 25,000 considered too few—we don't even know what most of them do! Just the fact that one of the major science journals thinks this is a pressing issue tells you something.

I'm afraid I read Biology as Ideology and agreed with just about everything Lewontin said. But then, I didn't go into it assuming that he was "attacking" all of science. Rather, he's advocating a realistic examination of how the social enterprise of science impinges on the objective execution of science.


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Comments:
's avatar #30591: moioci — 07/02  at  02:11 PM
"What Darwin did was take early-nineteenth-century political economy and expand it to include all of natural economy."

I see. So what Newton did was to take eighteenth-century political economy and apply it to the visible universe. Kind of the Adam Smith of cosmology. Gives a whole new meaning to the "Invisible Hand," doesn't it? (You know, "Who whacked me with that apple? Musta been the Invisible Hand of gravity!")



's avatar #30592: Chris Clarke — 07/02  at  02:15 PM
The influence the economic thought of Malthus had on Darwin is not exactly controversial.

"I do not think we should antagonize the religious when it is not warranted, though I think we should be willing to do so whenever it is.”
-- Glen Davidson



#30602: coturnix — 07/02  at  03:42 PM
Arrrgh. I was just about to start doing my own deconstruction of Alon's piece. You scooped me. If I feel I have something to add, I'll do it later tonight (Junior is back from camp and wants to use the computer....).



's avatar #30603: PZ Myers — 07/02  at  03:44 PM
I don't think Darwin's bourgeois perspective on evolution is at all controversial -- nor is it entirely wrong, nor does it invalidate the theory. Most importantly, Lewontin doesn't use that fact to argue against evolution, but rather to point out that it has led us to an incomplete picture of what evolution means to humanity.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



's avatar #30604: PZ Myers — 07/02  at  03:46 PM
Coturnix, there is much left to do. I just whipped out a hasty overview, but there is much more to tear apart.

Nothing personal, Alon, but I think your "Lewontin hates Science!" glasses really warped your interpretation.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#30607: Raven — 07/02  at  04:19 PM
Rather, he's advocating a realistic examination of how the social enterprise of science impinges on the [bug-word removed] execution of science.



Well, I haven't read the book, so that lack is going to hamper how much I can say about Alon's interpretation. And in the previous thread, I pointed out several examples of where I thought Alon had overlooked examples of science being colored by the overlying social structures, and how that omission accordingly weakens his argument.

Nevertheless, I do think Alon makes an important point in itself, although reading PZ's critique, it may well be that this point is misapplied to Lewontin. In our earlier "Loon" thread, we were talking about mistrust in science in the New Age community. I think that as humans we have a selection bias toward negative examples, and so examples of the type I cited tend to bias the public (at least, some of it) against science more than the eventual correction pressures or the majority of ethical scientists bias the public toward science.

So I read Alon's essay as an appeal for separation of the good and self-correcting parts of science from the policy aspects that can often be misapplied. I don't think that can ever be totally done--certainly not to the degree Alon implies, by overlooking many examples--but to the extent that it can be, I think it's worth keeping in mind as one tool to counter the anti-scientific biases I mentioned above.



#30608: — 07/02  at  04:44 PM
If you want to see something very fun from Richard Lewontin, check out his review of Carl Sagan's book The Demon-Haunted World. After reading it, I wondered why he didn't quit his job and become some TV evangelist's lackey.

After describing an evolution-creationism debate, he went on to argue that what he was seeing in creationists was some sort of class struggle, with fundies adopting creationism as a proletarian revolt against bourgeois big-city evolutionists.

Marxist jargon:
proletarian = working class = "good guys"
bourgeois = capitalist class = "bad guys"

The class-conflict thesis is an interesting question to consider, especially if one gets away from the Marxist dichotomy of proletariat/bourgeoisie, but it must be said that there is a such thing as objective truth. There is also the question of why creationists are not also championing geocentrism or flat-earthism or exorcism or salivary therapy (don't laugh -- it's in the Gospels).

And he seemed to imply that the creationists' professional credentials somehow give legitimacy to their viewpoints. As if the absolute shoddiness of their "science" is somehow irrelevant.

He also kvetches at Sagan for the uncompromising rationalism that he expresses -- but what would he prefer? Consulting astrologers to help design lab experiments?

He makes a big fuss about how cancer has been such a hard nut to crack, but I fail to see how that's an argument that all of modern science has been an abject failure. We have not been completely successful, but we have nevertheless not been complete failures.

He sneers that
Many of the most fundamental claims of science are against common sense and seem absurd on their face. Do physicists really expect me to accept without serious qualms that the pungent cheese that I had for lunch is really made up of tiny, tasteless, odorless, colorless packets of energy with nothing but empty space between them?

I invite him to go to a beach and make some sand castles and teach himself a lesson in emergent properties -- collectives of sand grains have some properties very different from those of individual sand grains.

Toward the end, he seems to be making a plea for scientists to incorporate gods and demons and so forth into their hypotheses; he ought to address the question of how those hypotheses would be tested.



#30610: Alon Levy — 07/02  at  05:20 PM
Originally posted by Chris

The influence the economic thought of Malthus had on Darwin is not exactly controversial.


I'm not saying Malthus didn't influence Darwin; I'm saying that it's insane to comment on why Darwinism became the dominant paradigm without ever mentioning Darwin's journey on the Beagle.

Now, on to the discussion in the other thread:

Originally posted by Chris

I agree with the criticism Larry and Raven make. I also think you're too quick to relegate reflexive reductionism to the rubbishheap of history. There are plenty of reductionists still walking the earth. (Dawkins, anyone?)


Well, science is reductionistic. The idea is to simply but not to oversimplify, whereas Lewontin says science does oversimplify. But despite what he says, even genocentrists realize that the way genes supposedly control behavior is very, very complex. Remember: ultimately biology is reducible to 57 elementary particles - or even fewer, depending on what theory of quantum gravity one subscribes to - but nobody even bothers doing that because doing that is too complicated and will produce such a high-resolution image that nobody will be able to make sense of it.

Originally posted by Larry

Alon, in the essay you link to you claim:


in the last four hundred years, there have been exactly two cases of science being subservient to the dominant social structure


which is just silly. Lysenko? In the US, there were wildly dubious medical theories which legitimated slave-owners' customs and practices, like the lung disease which made slaves run away, best treated by repeated blows to the back...

[indenting changed to italics because of nesting problems]


Originally postedby Raven

There are many more than just two cases, Alon--the Tuskegee syphilis study, Pernkopf's anatomical atlas, nuclear testing without notification of populations in the US Southwest and in Micronesia, suppression of negative research findings by government or corporations (like Vioxx), continued practice by physicians and remuneration by insurance companies of treatments backed by little or no evidence (certain orthopedic surgical procedures, for example)--I could enumerate them all day, but no one here has time for that.

I am not including scientific fraud like Bezwoda here, because that is a renegade scientist, who was outed and rejected by the scientific community. Rather, I confine myself to the practice by established scientists of research that is less than faithful to the principle of scientific truth above every other consideration, and that is practiced in such as way as to reinforce existing social structures.

If your point is that, like Semmelweis, the truth is ultimately vindicated by science, I'd buy that, in most cases at least. But getting to that point of vindication is often full of sociopolitical obstacles which science can and does temporarily reinforce, sometimes for decades.


What I mean is that there have been two occasions in which the entire establishment was geared to proving a political point. I know about Lysenko, but Lysenko was never part of mainstream biology; eugenicists, however, were mainstream biology for a few decades, and anthropology started as an attempt to rigorously show the supremacy of European cultures over non-European ones.

For the same reasons I did not include unethical experiments on humans, such as the Tuskegee experiment and nuclear testing. Lewontin brings up eugenics to show that science is simply a way to legitimize the prevailing social structure. The Tuskegee experiment was not such an attempt; rather, it was an immoral occasion on which scientists put the quest for knowledge above unimportant things such as basic morals or rudimentary care for human beings or not treating black people as lab animals. It is therefore outside the scope of Lewontin's argument.

As for financial influence on research, I admit that in the article. I say that Lewontin attacks science on several grounds, one of which is financial interests, and I explicitly say I refrain from attacking Lewontin there. Funding influences science; on many occasions corporate or government funding skews research; and it's important to investigate these money trails.



More on everything that later - it's 7:15 am here and I'm *still* awake. Right I'll only briefly touch on two of your points, PZ, namely the one about the number of genes and the one about why I think Lewontin is anti-science.

The question, "Why do humans have so few genes?" is relevant because a) researchers presumed the number was closer to 100,000, and b) it is related to the way multiple genes create multiple proteins.

As for why I think Lewontin is anti-science, it's because of his essay about legitimization. When someone writes in length about how science's main purpose is to legitimize the dominant social structure, an assertion that will send every political scientist up in a burst of laughter, I reserve the right to call him anti-scientific. Talking about why science isn't objective isn't the worst problem in Biology as Ideology; trying to argue that science's purpose is to legitimize an ideology is.



's avatar #30612: PZ Myers — 07/02  at  06:21 PM
a) Why did researchers presume the number was 100,000 though? b) Alternative splicing is only the latest excuse to increase the number. Honestly, it's the weirdest thing: a lot of scientists are convinced it has to be greater than the number the HGP has come up with, and I don't know why. A small part of it has to be the financial aspect (remember a few years ago, when they were selling options on genes?), but there seems to be some deep need to amplify the complexity of humans for some mysterious reason.

Umm, you're doing it again. Lewontin does not claim that the main purpose of science is to legitimize the dominant social structure--and you'd have to be blind to pretend that science isn't used to that end.

Maybe part of the problem here is that you are confusing Science, the process, with Science, the social institution. Lewontin is criticizing the latter, and trying hard to explain that the two aren't identical.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#30613: — 07/02  at  06:23 PM
Of course, Alon Levy has on this blog referred to the Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr. -- the founder of the Southern CHRISTIAN Leadership Conference -- as an outspoken atheist, so I'm not surprised he would misrepresent someone so badly.



#30616: Raven — 07/02  at  07:27 PM
...there seems to be some deep need to amplify the complexity of humans for some mysterious reason.


Scala naturae dies hard.



's avatar #30621: John M. Price — 07/02  at  08:08 PM
PZ Myers: a) Why did researchers presume the number was 100,000 though? b) Alternative splicing is only the latest excuse to increase the number. Honestly, it's the weirdest thing: a lot of scientists are convinced it has to be greater than the number the HGP has come up with, and I don't know why.


Just to hazard a guess, I'd bet it is a lack of understanding of the developmental influences the new (as in young) organism has on gene expression. For instance, Pettigrew (sp?) in Oz noted that fruitbats (Megachiropteran sp.) see color and have a visual system much like primates. Ergo (with other elements such as penis type, wing attachment, diet, etc.) they should be primates!

Well, OK, and I would love to be in an order that flew naturally (Messrs. Potter, Weasley, etc. aside). But it makes no real sense in that small changes (frugivores are usually color sensitive) in gene structure can, at the end point, develop an entirely different CNS than the more closely related Micorchiropterans. Small initial genetic differences will have neurons sniffing out new connections.

So animals' phenotypic structure can, and does, confuse folk normally dedicated to clear analysis. Look also to the chimp/ape/human relationship issue.

This is not really bad. One must start with what is seen. But to go no further is indeed an error. Here I think the scientists were flabbergasted by the complexity, failed to think past the genome into the 'genome in development', and viola, 100K genes required to be a speaking, tool using, industrial and culture loving African ape based creature. Compared to the other creatures, solely on the behavioral complexity, it could be seen as reasonable, though now known as flat wrong.



#30624: coturnix — 07/02  at  09:17 PM
I have read "Biology as Ideology" about 10 years ago. I remember reading it outdoors, while grilling, and burning a steak as a result. I wish I could re-read it quickly to refresh my memory. I wish I could find it in this mess! I kept out growing library in immaculate order for 12 years (non-fiction by topic, fiction by author). However, the last move resulted in 5000 books hap-hazardly packed into a space that is too small for a library of that size and as a result it takes hours to find anything....grrrrrr! I guess I'll have to rely on my memory, as well as on the fact that I have read several other books by Lewontin and tended to agree with each one for teh most part.

If I remember correctly, the book was a printing of his lectures that were given to the people who already were evolutionary biologists, or at least academics who do not doubt evolution. As an evolutionary biologist himself, speaking to people who were not liable to be swayed by creationist arguments, Lewontin had no need to stress that evolution is true - that was a given. He also, for this crowd, did not need to waste his time on the Beagle story - everyone in his audience knew the details of Darwin's biography already - that was also a given. Heck, all the kids who graduate from 8th grade where I come from know the Beagle story by heart....

Thus, omitting defense of evolution as fact, and omitting the relevance of Galapagos do not mean he believes those are irrelevant. They were only irrelevant to the particular topic of his lectures collected in this book. That is why they are missing - they were not the point of the book. He is discussing the social aspects of science while everything else is a given.

I have not heard any serious Darwinian scholar, no matter what political persuasion (and that includes Gertrude Himmelfarb on the Right), denying the importance of the 19th century England zeitgeist on the formation of Darwin's theory. Sure, he has read Spencer later (and did not read Das Kapital - the pages of his copy with Marx's autograph are still uncut). But Spencer is not important here. Spencer took Darwinism and applied it forcefully to society.

What mattered for the formation of the theory were Malthus and Adam Smith. The novelty of Darwin's theory of evolution (as opposed to, e.g., Erasmus Darwin, Chambers or Lamarck before him) is the ecological view, or, as Mayr put it - "population thinking".

Instead of thinking about individuals, Darwin thought about ecosystems. Observing the nature in the tropics (instead of peaceful English meadows) certainly helped him focus there. People with experience in tropical travels (e.g., Wallace, Bates, Muller etc.) had their minds "best primed" for the reception of the Origin and were the first to immediately accept the theory when it came out (and the first to apply it to research).

Yet, observing the tropics was not enough. Many travelled to the tropics and never thought of evolution. What Darwin did was look at the tropical ecosystems with Adam Smith and Malthus on his mind. He was a child of 19th century capitalism, he was steeped in the economic literature of the day, and he made direct parallels between nature as he saw it and the society as seen from the prism of the prevailing ideology of the times. One cannot shed one's cultural baggage and biases when doing science. After all, the principle of natural selection is extremely simple. It is so simple there is no reason why ancient Greeks or Egyptians could not have thought of it. Yet they did not. The understanding of the world, especially understanding of a complex system - the human society being the most obvious and readily available example - has to be conducive for such discoveries. The 19th century England understanding of the human society was conducive to the discovery of the principle of natural selection. Feudalism or Stalinism are not.

However, there are aspects of the evolutionary theory that were less visible and thwarted by the very same 19th century capitalist view of the world. This view persisted until at least mid-20th century in the West. Some of those aspects are: undue stress on competition and downplaying cooperation; male-centric theory of sexual selection; progressivism (time's arrow) and related to that the equation of "fit" with "good", which led to eugenics; matemathization of biology that led to elimination of the organism and especially embryonic development of the organism from the mainstream evolutionary theory, etc. This is what Lewontin's treatise is about. (Btw, for the non-social, biological side of that, read this book).



#30626: coturnix — 07/02  at  09:46 PM
Lewontin distinguishes between methodological reductionism and philosophical reductionism. He practices the former and warns against the latter. Alon writes:
The greedy reductionist view that Lewontin attacks is two hundred years dead, and when it was alive it only concerned itself with mechanics.
. It is not dead. It is alive and kicking, see Dawkins, Dennett, EP.... While Dawkins, pushed by critics and the evidence has inched back step by step (and yes, his books have gotten somewhat less ridiculous over time) he has not made the final step because if he did there would be nothing left as Dawkinsian - he would just plain agree with the rest of the world, i.e., there would be no difference between Dawkins' understanding of the world and that of more sophisticated modern thinkers and biologists. He cannot make that step because he has staked his name and his career on being different. Even when he accepts a point, he tends to rename it and present as his own insight. The most telling renaming he did was turning David Hull's "interactors" into "vehicles" which suggests that he has not abandoned the genocentric (philosophically, not methodologically reductionist) view of the world.



#30627: coturnix — 07/02  at  09:57 PM
Alon writes: <blockquote>He claims that there is a fairly old idea that blood will tell, which biologists inherited from popular beliefs. His primary piece of evidence for that is the plot of Charles Dickens' Oliver Twist, wherein the idea is that Oliver was so out of place in his poor milieu because his biological parents were rich. This argument, however, doesn't stand up to even casual scrutiny; Oliver Twist was written between 1837 and 1839, almost thirty years before Mendel discovered the laws of inheritance. If Oliver Twist is an argument against modern genetic paradigms, then Asimov's Robot series is an argument against modern artificial intelligence paradigms, which it isn't. Further literary and theatrical works Lewontin produces postdate Mendel but not by enough; it took about 35 years for the scientific community to rediscover Mendel's discovery and about 30 more to start to synthesize genetics and evolution.<blockquote>

What does Mendel have to do with anything here? Nobody is talking about mechanism of inheritance ("genetics"), just about fact of inheritance. Darwin used the observable fact of inheritance to build his theory many years before discovery and rediscovery of Mendel - with great success. Actually, Dickens HAS to predate Mendel if we are to use him for the analysis. Oliver Twist (and many other examples) demonstrate to us that people in Western Europe in the early 19th century, during the time that Darwin was building his theory, believed that nature trumps nurture. It was important that they did NOT know genetics. Where did they get the idea then, if Mendel was not born yet? From feudal ideology (tracing back to ancient times, of course) still present in European blood aristocracy and in the process of being repackaged and tranferred to capitalist ideology of the time.



's avatar #30628: Chris Clarke — 07/02  at  10:20 PM
I'm saying that it's insane to comment on why Darwinism became the dominant paradigm without ever mentioning Darwin's journey on the Beagle.


I haven't read Lewontin. But of course it is completely appropriate to write an analysis of the spread of the hypothesis of natural selection throughout the scientific community without mentioning the Beagle voyage. To say otherwise is just silly. As an editor, I'd assume that time spent recounting the basics of Darwin's biography would be time wasted, as startlingly few of the readers of Lewontin's book would not be familiar with the story in far greater detail than would be possible to portray as supporting material in a book.

Further - and here is where you tread into the same territory occupied by creationists - the Galapagos visit was entirely incidental to Darwin's thought. Darwin was a naturalist, and spent his life observing and describing organisms. Though the Galapagos finches are an excellent synecdoche for inherited variation refined by natural selection, those finches could just as easily have been Falklands penguins, borage family plants in the Canary Islands, or freshwater fish in the Thames. Or birds of paradise in the Indonesian Archipelago with Wallace observing rather than Darwin.

That 19th century political economist you scoff at, contrariwise, provided the central insight allowing Darwin to put together his theory:

"In October 1838, that is, fifteen months after I had begun my systematic inquiry, I happened to read for amusement Malthus on Population, and being well prepared to appreciate the struggle for existence which everywhere goes on from long-continued observation of the habits of animals and plants, it at once struck me that under these circumstances favourable variations would tend to be preserved, and unfavourable ones to be destroyed. The results of this would be the formation of a new species. Here, then I had at last got a theory by which to work".
- From Darwin's autobiography.


"Here, then I had at last got a theory by which to work." Darwin himself credits Malthus with the core of his hypothesis.

"I do not think we should antagonize the religious when it is not warranted, though I think we should be willing to do so whenever it is.”
-- Glen Davidson



#30629: coturnix — 07/02  at  10:50 PM
The link provided by Loren (comment #30608) is excellent, though I think that Loren is misunderstanding it. It is from NY Review of Books, targeting the readership of NYRB who knows very well that Lewontin, a regular contributor there, is a premier evolutionary biologist, atheist and a rational kind of person. He has no space there, nor intention, to defend rationalism in his essay.

He obviously liked Sagan and Sagan's book, yet points to a deep philosophical split between himself and Sagan: Sagan belongs to a group of people who believes that education and FACTS, if provided, are in themselves sufficient to change minds, while Lewontin, being better versed in sociology and psychology, thinks it is not that simple. Regulars on this blog, as well as on Panda's Thumb etc., always throw facts and information at visiting creationist commenters and get very frustrated when the facts do not change opinions.

There is a similar division in the current Democratic party: people who think that if only media reported the truth every single American would vote against Bush and people who realize that when encountering cognitive dissonance between one's core worldview (built via environment in which parental childrearing philosophy is key) and the facts, people disbelieve the facts. The most important contribution of George Lakoff is not so much "framing" as is the notion, strange to coastal liberals, that Truth Will Not Set You Free. Lewontin, at the end of that article, actually states this same message: Truth Will Not Set You Free, and wonders how can we change people's minds in a such a way that they start accepting the facts.



#30631: Andrew Brown — 07/03  at  01:34 AM
Remember: ultimately biology is reducible to 57 elementary particles - or even fewer, depending on what theory of quantum gravity one subscribes to - but nobody even bothers doing that because doing that is too complicated and will produce such a high-resolution image that nobody will be able to make sense of it.


Alon, it is simply not true that biology can be reduced in that way. We know here that animals can't be reduced to their genes -- that all sorts of extra-sequential information is required to get from genes to proteins, and then from proteins to phenotypes.

Then to get from individuals to ecology requires a whole new science, taking new causal factors into account.

And I believe that even the detailed reduction of chemistry to physics is more complicated than I ingorantly suppose. Certainly, John Sulston, who trained as a chemist, does not believe it has been done.



#30632: — 07/03  at  01:43 AM
The link provided by Loren (comment #30608) is excellent, though I think that Loren is misunderstanding it. It is from NY Review of Books, targeting the readership of NYRB who knows very well that Lewontin, a regular contributor there, is a premier evolutionary biologist, atheist and a rational kind of person. He has no space there, nor intention, to defend rationalism in his essay.


That might very well be true, but in that case, it's sloppy writing. One can't asume that readers of a newspaper or magazine knows your opinion, as the readership is everchanging. When one present arguments that is based on such knowledge, one should always at least make a small scetch of the presumed knowldge, so the readers have the right framework for reading the article.



#30633: — 07/03  at  01:47 AM
Raven wrote:

In our earlier "Loon" thread, we were talking about mistrust in science in the New Age community. I think that as humans we have a selection bias toward negative examples, and so examples of the type I cited tend to bias the public (at least, some of it) against science more than the eventual correction pressures or the majority of ethical scientists bias the public toward science.


I don't believe we have a selection bias towards negative examples, otherwise how would you explain all the annecdotal evidence given? I can't really say what we have instead, but it's something else.



#30636: — 07/03  at  02:31 AM
Coming from a Southern Baptist background, I know all too well how difficult it can be to leave your lifelong predispositions behind. Just because you have all the proof in the world doesn't make it any easier to admit to yourself that your world-view is skewed.

Take for instance Kurt Wise PhD, who apparantly stated that "Although there are scientific reasons for accepting a young earth, I am a young-age creationist because that is my understanding of the Scripture...if all the evidence in the universe turns against creationism, I would be the first to admit it, but I would still be a creationist because that is what the Word of God seems to indicate."

Granted this quote is taken from an article by Dawkins, (http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/dawkins_21_4.html) but it nonetheless illustrates the point that irrefutable evidence and logical arguments will not be sufficient to alter deep-seated beliefs held for generations. Faith has never had anything to do with the justifiable proof of anything,...that is, other than the undeniable willingness of the believer to misguide themself or anyone else in ear-shot.



#30638: Alon Levy — 07/03  at  05:21 AM
The basic problem here is that Lewontin knows nothing about history or political science. It takes ignorance to believe that the 19th century's dominant political view was law of the jungle capitalism; this only became dominant toward the end of the century, and even then the naive progressive ideology that dominated until about 1860 only properly died in 1914 with the onset of World War One. It takes even more ignorance not to know what the source of the modern state's legitimacy is.


Umm, you're doing it again. Lewontin does not claim that the main purpose of science is to legitimize the dominant social structure--and you'd have to be blind to pretend that science isn't used to that end.

Actually, Lewontin does claim that this is the primary purpose of science. I'm basing this observation on the following quotes:
1. "What Darwin did was take early-nineteenth-century political economy and expand it to include all of natural economy" (p. 10).
2. "Science... is a supremely social institution, reflecting and reinforcing the dominant values and views of society at each historical epoch" (p. 9).
3. "So, the ideology of modern science, including modern biology, makes the atom or individual the causal source of all the properties of larger collections" (p. 13).
4. "This [biological determinism] is the view that the old society was chatacerized by artifical barriers to equality, whereas the new society allows a natural sorting process to decide who is to get the status, wealth, and power and who is not" (p. 20).

Every single one of these quotes is false; the first three are also marks of an anti-scientific crackpot.

Saying that Darwin applied politics to biology is inexcusable without saying anything about the fact that he had evidence. It's common among some people, especially libertarians, to weigh views based on their form, so for example liberalism and conservatism are hypocritical because of their insistence of using the government for certain roles but not others. But this view is plainly untenable; one has to consider the substance of a view. Lewontin doesn't even say something like, "Because he subscribed to Malthus's views, it was easier for Darwin to make sense of the Galápagos fauna."

Repeatedly insisting science reinforces dominant social values doesn't make it so. Sometimes it does, as in the case of eugenics. But the modern IQ debate shows that it doesn't always, because of the proliferation of alternative models, such as the seven intelligences. Cognitive science in general is non-ideological even though it has some social implications. Malthus was a contrarian, the dominant view at the time being much more optimistic, so Darwinism won out despite being at odds with contemporary notions of unbridled progress. Physicists rejected Newtonian mechanics in favor of relativity even though Newtonian mechanics is the epitome of reductionism and much of reductionist philosophy was built around it.

Saying that modern science is reductionistic because of ideology is plain wrong. At most, one can say that this is a view in science, like Gouldianism or Dawkinsianism. But there is a difference between a scientific view and an ideology; in particular, scientific reductionism helped political individualism gain traction but not vice versa. Reductionism got accepted in science because of its own merits.

While some use biological determinism to promote authoritarian views - pseudoscientific racists come to mind - this view is very inefficient as a legitimizer of social structures. In the modern West, people don't like to believe that some people are inherently better than others. And indeed, mainstream conservatism and all of libertarianism prefers to justify inequality on moral reasons: the poor are poor because of moral failure. After all, according to the American Dream, everyone who wants to succeed in the United States can by working hard and following the rules. The moral-failure myth accords with that by positing that the poor are lazy and don't want to succeed, whereas the natural-hierarchy myth doesn't because it violates the tenets of freedom and choice.

Furthermore, there is Lewontin's no-practical-uses argument. This is the weakest argument in the book; Lewontin has to resort to plain falsities, such as that in the last 50 years life expectancy at 60 rose by 4 months in the United States (the actual figure is 4 years and 11 months between 1940 and 1990). Why would he try to show that basic research is useless in practice? What reason does a pro-science person have to paint science as useless enterprise? There is his beef with the Human Genome Project, which he has the cheek to compare to faith healing in Loren's article. But that's not enough; he has enough arguments against the HGP without needing to resort to belittling the practical merits of scientific research.

The fact that he's a scientist doesn't make him automatically pro-science. Nonreligious forms of anti-intellectualism are strongest among educated people and are well-represented among intellectuals. Post-modernism began not with students fed up with their professors but with established scholars and philosophers. Austrian economists are as anti-economics as possible because of their insistence that using facts is statistical economics, which is useless; many were professors of economics at prestigious institutions. At the beginning of the Enlightenment, it was philosophers rather than scientists who dismantled the stranglehold philosophy had on intellectualism. Given that, it's easily possible for a Harvard biologist to be anti-science.


Of course, Alon Levy has on this blog referred to the Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr. -- the founder of the Southern CHRISTIAN Leadership Conference -- as an outspoken atheist, so I'm not surprised he would misrepresent someone so badly.

Where did I ever say that? All I said is that MLK would probably support equal rights for atheists.


He also, for this crowd, did not need to waste his time on the Beagle story - everyone in his audience knew the details of Darwin's biography already - that was also a given. Heck, all the kids who graduate from 8th grade where I come from know the Beagle story by heart....

So why did he publish that as a popular book? Besides, saying that Darwin deliberately applied Malthusianism to biology gives a skewed picture of reality, in which Darwinian theory was based on politics rather than on evidence. Reread the long blockquoted quote of Sokal at the beginning of my article; Darwinism is a good example of good science informed by a political view, because Darwin's primary argument was not, "this is how capitalism works, only in biology," but, "this accords with how archipelago animals diverge." If On the Origin of Species had begun with an account of how to apply economic capitalism to biology, and if biologists had accepted Darwinism primarily on philosophical grounds, then it would have been a completely different thing; but it doesn't and they didn't.

The 19th century England understanding of the human society was conducive to the discovery of the principle of natural selection. Feudalism or Stalinism are not.

But you claim that one must observe tropical fauna to see Darwinism in action; how many naturalists traveled to the tropics before, say, 1800? Also, note that 19th-century England was an Enlightenment society, whereas feudal Europe was not.

What does Mendel have to do with anything here?

It's crucial because anything predating him is as relevant to modern genetics as I, Robot is to modern AI research. By the same token I can reach similar insane conclusions about how cognitive science is simply an attempt to legitimize a certain language-centric view of cognition and use Asimov's three rules of robotics as an example of that. In fact every science evolved as an attempt to discover something, so many if not all sciences were preceded by utterly wrong ideas (e.g. Oliver Twist, alchemy, Asimov's laws of robotics).

As I say in my article: "eugenics' history actually underscores one of the aspects of the academia, namely that it is liable to believe certain things based on prejudice, but when there is strong evidence to the contrary, the facts win out." Whatever prejudice there was about inheritance before anyone knew anything about it is quite irrelevant. It's as relevant as alchemy to chemistry or the Asimovian view of robots to cognitive science.

The link provided by Loren (comment #30608) is excellent, though I think that Loren is misunderstanding it. It is from NY Review of Books, targeting the readership of NYRB who knows very well that Lewontin, a regular contributor there, is a premier evolutionary biologist, atheist and a rational kind of person. He has no space there, nor intention, to defend rationalism in his essay.

There's no way to get around the fact that Lewontin considers creationists a somehow oppressed minority ("The debate in Arkansas between a teacher from a Texas fundamentalist college and a Harvard astronomer and University of Chicago biologist was a stage play recapitulating the history of American rural populism"). There's no way to get around, "If Sagan really wants to hear serious disputation about the nature of the universe, he should leave the academic precincts in Ithaca and spend a few minutes in an Orthodox study house in Brooklyn."


Further - and here is where you tread into the same territory occupied by creationists - the Galapagos visit was entirely incidental to Darwin's thought. Darwin was a naturalist, and spent his life observing and describing organisms. Though the Galapagos finches are an excellent synecdoche for inherited variation refined by natural selection, those finches could just as easily have been Falklands penguins, borage family plants in the Canary Islands, or freshwater fish in the Thames. Or birds of paradise in the Indonesian Archipelago with Wallace observing rather than Darwin.

So if it weren't the Beagle journey, it'd be something else. Still the point is that Darwinism stood on its own merits, not on these of Adam Smith or Thomas Malthus.



#30639: — 07/03  at  05:49 AM
The fact that he's a scientist doesn't make him automatically pro-science.


Richard Lewontin: "Hello, I'm Richard Lewontin, I'm an evoloutionary biologist engaged in research at Harvard University."

Alon Levy: "YOU ARE ANTI-SCIENCE! YOUR ARGUMENTS ARE INSANE!"

(Feel me to correct me if I've missed anything important about Alon's argument).



#30640: — 07/03  at  05:51 AM
Should be:

(Feel free to correct me if I've missed anything important about Alon's argument).

But, hey, feel me too, readers.



#30641: Alon Levy — 07/03  at  05:59 AM
(Feel free to correct me if I've missed anything important about Alon's argument).

Except for the entire argument, you didn't miss anything.

(I was one paragraph away from completing a response to your original post, PZ, when Windows 98 crashed).



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