Pharyngula::Christmas in NYC

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Saturday, December 25, 2004

Christmas in NYC

PZ Myers • 55 Comments (last page)

We've had an uneventful trip so far, and are safely ensconced in a cheap hotel near Central Park. We've been taking long walks around the area, gawking like a bunch of tourists.

I'm definitely an atheist. Here it is, Christmas Day, and we walked by the Cathedral of St. Patrick with its bells pounding and mobs of people milling inside, and I looked at that building and discovered what 'visceral revulsion' felt like. It's hideous. I saw that looming overly ornate lump of gray and thought there really ought to be a burning eye suspended at the top. My wife insisted we go inside, so we went through the annoying security checkpoint and stood at the back while a fat priest in fancy robes sermonized at the front of the place. I felt nothing but contempt, and we fought our way through the crowds to get out. So much money, so much effort wasted on ostentatious display for wicked superstition…I felt like I'd found the rotting heart of evil in New York City.

There I was in my jolly Santa hat, feeling dirty and disgusted. It really sucked the Christmas cheer right out of me.

So we walked on, down Fifth Avenue, drawn by the beacon of the Empire State Building way down there, and then I saw something that restored my faith in humanity. Something grand and beautiful. A huge old building in a classical style, covered with statues and inscriptions.

The New York Public Library.

Honestly, I felt like dropping to my knees in reverence. My heart grew two sizes right there. This was a religious feeling, to see knowledge dressed in such honor; it's unfortunate that it wasn't open on Christmas Day so that we could go inside and worship. Read that banner: "The Newtonion Moment: Science and the Making of Modern Culture".

We're going tomorrow. I think. We're also planning to spend the day at the AMNH (Frogs! Butterflies! Northwest art! Dinosaurs!), so it's going to be difficult to tear ourselves away from one temple of knowledge to visit another.

We definitely won't be setting foot in another church while we're here. It's going to take a while to wash that taste out of my mouth.

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Comments:

#11880: — 12/25 at 04:37 PM
The burning eye image is brilliant! Ha-ha, I'll remember that one a long time.

I think of such buildings as "frozen wealth." They cost a LOT to build, they're on some of the most expensive, and tax-free, property in the city, and they're multiplied uncounted thousands of times all over the world, and all through human history.

#11881: coturnix — 12/25 at 05:46 PM
...yes, but they brought us spandrels!

#11883: Stu — 12/25 at 06:19 PM
i'm recent to your blog : and let me say i do like it. thanks (especially your critique of creationism). but your take on the temple of knowledge seems to speak more of your own emotional baggage than anything else.

how many religious texts are in the library? how many texts are affected by religious context? i can't help but feel that your animosity toward things christian is not shared by the 'temple of knowledge' you wish to worship at.

#11884: — 12/25 at 07:13 PM
Give my regards to Patience and Fortitude: during my formative years, my first destination when cutting school was that glorious building...

#11885: Jay Manifold — 12/25 at 07:20 PM
PZ, only you could make this sound endearing. Enjoy yourself in NYC -- hey, maybe you'll run into my sister, bro-in-law, and nephews, who arrive tomorrow! Anyway, have fun, and I look forward to my next visit to MN, or yours to MO.

#11887: — 12/25 at 08:30 PM

how many religious texts are in the library? how many texts are affected by religious context?

Gosh, Stu, probably shitloads of 'em. However, more important questions might be: How much misery and misguided persecutions and death -- and just plain lost opportunities -- have such books brought to humans throughout history?

And how much of the comfort, health and wealth of modern civilization have come from those OTHER books, the ones with actual knowledge in them?

More specifically, in only one field, that of health: How many lives have been ended, how much health has been destroyed, by superstition and religious falsehoods? And how much health has been improved, how many lives have been saved, by the science of medicine?

And jeez, if you ask me, there's one helluva clear difference between what cathedrals PROMOTE and what libraries PROVIDE.

#11890: mattH — 12/25 at 10:00 PM
Oh, Northwest Coast art. That sounds like quite the entertaining exhibit.

And coturnix, always nice to see the good side of things.

#11891: Jan Theodore Galkowski — 12/25 at 10:12 PM
Well, PZ, if the City makes you depressed with its density of religious establishments, you should definitely avoid Paris. I should think that would make you positively nauseous.

A thought experiment: Would it be as sickening if these were all polytheistic temples? That's religion, after all. Yet polytheists tend to be reasonable sorts of folk, at least regarding religion. Far more tolerant. Indeed, they may want to rob or enslave you, but they leave your soul alone.

#11892: Jan Theodore Galkowski — 12/25 at 10:19 PM
Hank Fox sayeth in part:

I think of such buildings as “frozen wealth.” They cost a LOT to build, they’re on some of the most expensive, and tax-free, property in the city, and they’re multiplied uncounted thousands of times all over the world, and all through human history.

At least they have some kind of character. It takes a corporate business to be truly wasteful. We have an albatross down the street, courtesy of the Itsy Bitsy Machines Corporation, once big in these here parts. They spent almost a billion dollars on that hunk, its labs and equipment. They demanded NY State Electric and Gas put them in their own electrical subdivision, because they didn't want to share it with the local community. And now they've abandoned it, leaving empty buildings, with a gorgeous view from parts of the insides.

The new cathedrals are buildings like those of Aetna USHealthCare in Middletown, CT. You approach their property for a couple of miles, and there is nothing but forest, landscape, and parking lots to any side of it. It sits there, a big ugly glass box in the center, ready to be abandoned or subdivided should the fortunes of its holder change.

#11893: — 12/25 at 11:55 PM
how many religious texts are in the library? how many texts are affected by religious context? i can’t help but feel that your animosity toward things christian is not shared by the ‘temple of knowledge’ you wish to worship at.

At a guess, the reason he doesn't mind libraries even though they have religious texts is because the libraries are not explicitly endorsing the religion. They have religious books because they're books, not because they're religious. They are devoted to literature; the presence of religious literature is a side effect, as it were. Churches, on the other hand, are devoted explicitly to religion. Hence PZ's animosity.

#11894: — 12/25 at 11:56 PM
Heh, these library worshipping/superstition bashing sentiments are a welcome counter-balance and just what I needed for the season.

I hope you and your family are enjoying the trip, PZ.

#11895: stu — 12/26 at 12:18 AM

hank asksHow much misery and misguided persecutions and death — and just plain lost opportunities — have such books brought to humans throughout history?

you have a point hank that could be equally applied to the texts of many physics journals (as an example) that have paved the discovery for nuclear weapons and other weapons of misery and destruction and perscution and death. let's not call religion the bogey man here. let's call the corruption of knowledge the bogey man (if one needs to be found). and i have to ask, have areligious institutions done any better in being non-oppressive? you can't think that any idealogical framework isn't succeptible to abuse?
my point was that it's been within a theological/philosophical framework that much of history's great thought has taken shape. the library is testimony to this as well as documenting its history (which has been both sordid as you point out and inspiring which you cannot deny on behalf of all those who find it so).
Patrick makes a fair point—thanks.

#11896: — 12/26 at 12:25 AM
I'll take the reaction to St. Patrick's as a bit of snark and perhaps the reaction to the crowds. And, after all, as cathedral's go, it aint much. I enjoy cathedrals mostly because they're fine places for art. In fact, if you had more time, I'd suggest a trip up to the Cathedral of St. John the Divine, which runs a truly fine arts program and is a vital part of its community.

Enjoy AMNH! My favorite has always been Meteorites, Minerals and Gems. And the Dinosaurs. And the Early Mammals. And, well, pretty much the whole thing.

#11897: John Wilkins — 12/26 at 12:35 AM
Will you be visiting any academics/curators while at the AMNH? If so, say hi to Joel Cracraft

John S. Wilkins : evolvethought.blogspot.com

#11898: Jan Theodore Galkowski — 12/26 at 01:39 AM
<objectives which had absolutely no applications other than the pure pursuit of knowledge. In the end, of course, they often and deeply helped improve the art of engineering and the furtherance of the practical. But putting the practical first is <i>never</i> how science works.

A purer realization can be had with mathematics. It is a continuing wonder math is as useful as it is. Its best forms arise when completely disconnected from anything practical. Indeed, it seems its creativity is firmly handicapped if limited to solving the practical.

The misapplication and misunderstanding of science in the guise of engineering and social policy is legendary. Look only to the failures associated with the Challenger and Columbia Space Shuttle disasters to see how knowledge can be corrupted. This has very little to do with science, and very much to do with the profit motive. All the more so with power on the order available to nuclear devices.

Nonetheless, the smallest bit of knowledge can always be misapplied. Had the confrontation between the United States and the Soviet Union continued, you can trust me, on good authority, that the physics and properties of bubbles and cavitation in beer would have been crucially important towards determining the outcome of the military confrontation during the first decades of the 21st century.

#11901: — 12/26 at 06:18 AM
(Completely unrelated)
Here's something I myself found interestng - Darwinian Poetry.
<ahref="http://www.codeasart.com/poetry/darwin.html">http://www.codeasart.com/poetry/darwin.html</a>

#11902: — 12/26 at 06:20 AM
Forgive me, it's late.
http://www.codeasart.com/poetry/darwin.html

#11903: Sean — 12/26 at 09:36 AM
The religions themselves are superstitious nonsense, but I do love cathedrals. And the music, and the art. For a long time the churches had first call on the talents of all sorts of creative people, and they came up with some pretty nice stuff.

PZ, here's a mixed experience for you: go to Pisa, and visit the cathedral next to the Leaning Tower. You'll be torn between your reaction to the church itself and your knowledge that the back pews are where Galileo sat and figured out that the period of a pendulum was independent of the size of its oscillation. He was bored, of course, and timed the movements of the chandeliers using his pulse as a timepiece.

#11906: Mrs Tilton — 12/26 at 01:54 PM
They have religious books because they’re books, not because they’re religious.

Indeed, and it is appropriate at this juncture to remind you all of the scene in that well-known scientific documentary The Day After Tomorrow. A small group hiding from the Death Storm is holed up in no other place than NY's Public Library, and are forced to burn books to keep warm. One man refuses to consign a Gutenberg bible to the flames. Asked is he is religious, he says no, in fact he is an atheist; but Gutenberg's work is one of the pinnacles of human achievement, and he will save it all costs.

Mind you, I have no idea whether the NYPL actually posesses a Gutenberg.

As for me, I find St Patrick's cathedral an abomination primarily because it is a monument to Disneyland pseudogothic. It buttresses have no need to fly (just as well, as they're vestigial); the 'stonework' of its interior vaults is of papier-mâché. There is a time and a place for everything, and 19th c. New York was neither the time nor place for gothic.

#11908: Jan Theodore Galkowski — 12/26 at 02:15 PM

There is a time and a place for everything, and 19th c. New York was neither the time nor place for gothic.

But the goth may be appropriate now.

#11909: coturnix — 12/26 at 04:05 PM
Interesting Evolution/Creation thread on dKos:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/12/26/01621/658

#11910: Doug Tygar — 12/26 at 05:10 PM
No mention that December 25 is Newton's Birthday? Shouldn't this post be retitled "Newton's Birthday in NYC"?

#11912: Arcane — 12/26 at 06:34 PM
I never cease to be astounded by old PZ and his hate-filled lifestyle. That church is a gorgeous work of neo-gothic architecture. Even a secular-minded individual, like me, can recognize that and have an appreciation for it.

And that library is even more beautiful; a fine example of the neo-classical style promoted by Benjamin Franklin upon seeing some Roman architecture in France. Funny thing is, PZ should hate it as well, since the architecture that library is based on was built originally in order of the various Greek and Roman gods.

So, the architecture of the church and the architecture of the library are not very far removed from each other at all; they are both based on religious architecture. All it does is demonstrate the ignorance of PZ concerning religion and the architecture in regards to the history of Western Civilization.

#11913: Arcane — 12/26 at 06:35 PM
*in order to honor the various Greek and Roman gods.

#11914: Jan Theodore Galkowski — 12/26 at 06:52 PM
The Arcane annunciated in part:<style.</blockquote>that's a bit much, don't ya think? a portion of PZ's post was tongue-in-cheek. he certainly lavished camera and page space on the Gothic Monster. of course PZ will comment himself and is perfectly capable of defending himself. but there's no way i would call him "hate-filled".

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Saturday, December 25, 2004

Christmas in NYC

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