Pharyngula::Christmas in NYC

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Saturday, December 25, 2004

Christmas in NYC

PZ Myers • 55 Comments (last page)

We've had an uneventful trip so far, and are safely ensconced in a cheap hotel near Central Park. We've been taking long walks around the area, gawking like a bunch of tourists.

I'm definitely an atheist. Here it is, Christmas Day, and we walked by the Cathedral of St. Patrick with its bells pounding and mobs of people milling inside, and I looked at that building and discovered what 'visceral revulsion' felt like. It's hideous. I saw that looming overly ornate lump of gray and thought there really ought to be a burning eye suspended at the top. My wife insisted we go inside, so we went through the annoying security checkpoint and stood at the back while a fat priest in fancy robes sermonized at the front of the place. I felt nothing but contempt, and we fought our way through the crowds to get out. So much money, so much effort wasted on ostentatious display for wicked superstition…I felt like I'd found the rotting heart of evil in New York City.

There I was in my jolly Santa hat, feeling dirty and disgusted. It really sucked the Christmas cheer right out of me.

So we walked on, down Fifth Avenue, drawn by the beacon of the Empire State Building way down there, and then I saw something that restored my faith in humanity. Something grand and beautiful. A huge old building in a classical style, covered with statues and inscriptions.

The New York Public Library.

Honestly, I felt like dropping to my knees in reverence. My heart grew two sizes right there. This was a religious feeling, to see knowledge dressed in such honor; it's unfortunate that it wasn't open on Christmas Day so that we could go inside and worship. Read that banner: "The Newtonion Moment: Science and the Making of Modern Culture".

We're going tomorrow. I think. We're also planning to spend the day at the AMNH (Frogs! Butterflies! Northwest art! Dinosaurs!), so it's going to be difficult to tear ourselves away from one temple of knowledge to visit another.

We definitely won't be setting foot in another church while we're here. It's going to take a while to wash that taste out of my mouth.

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Comments:

#11915: Jan Theodore Galkowski — 12/26 at 06:54 PM
(Let's try that again.)

The Arcane annunciated in part:

<style.</blockquote>

That's a bit much, don't ya think? A portion of PZ's post was tongue-in-cheek. He certainly lavished camera and page space on the Gothic Monster. Of course PZ will eventually comment himself and is perfectly capable of defending himself. But there's no way I consider him or would call him "hate-filled".

#11916: Jan Theodore Galkowski — 12/26 at 06:55 PM
The quote missing from the above said:

<style.</i>

Don't know why it didn't show up.

#11917: Jan Theodore Galkowski — 12/26 at 06:56 PM
I n-e-v-e-r cease to be astounded by old PZ and his hate-filled l-i-f-e-s-t-y-l-e

#11918: Jan Theodore Galkowski — 12/26 at 06:57 PM
Is there a crack in progress?

#11920: Kevin — 12/26 at 07:06 PM

That church is a gorgeous work of neo-gothic architecture.

Isn't that an oxymoron?

A person's tastes can be different. I happen to think St. Patrick's Church is an eyesore, and it has nothing to do with it being a religious building and everything to do with being an example of "Disneyland pseudogothic," as Mrs. Tilton beautifully put it. You could give me 10 of the same, and I don't think it would be worth even one beam of Thorncrown Chapel.

#11921: Arcane — 12/26 at 07:08 PM
The coding on this blog doesn't work very much. Some people are lucky and get it to work, somebody aren't so much. I've had mine appear perfect in the preview sections only to not work on the actual post. Sometimes, it will even delete whole sections of your text...

#11922: Arcane — 12/26 at 07:11 PM
Kevin,
PZ made it well known in his post that he especially disliked it because of reasons concerning religion.

#11923: — 12/26 at 07:22 PM
After reading this post, I wandered upon this blog (via boingboing.)
St Pat's is creepy enough, but if you need digi-photos to underline the darkness of organised religion, here ya go:

http://www.ludd.luth.se/users/silver_p/kutna-1.html

Everything dies: but not every animal is inspired to make a family coat-of-arms out of the remains of their enemy.

#11924: — 12/26 at 07:28 PM
Arcane,

While I appreciate and share both PZ's opinion here and your own apparent respect for religious art, I think it's a bit of a stretch to posit that he lives a "hate-filled lifestyle" based on the opinion he presented here. Of course, that is for him to rebut if he so chooses, but I don't see his comments to be indicative of a hate-filled lifestyle. Most atheists are motivated, after all, by a sincere commitment to humanitarian causes, and judging from what I gather about PZ after a few weeks of perusing his site, he shares that commitment (hell, he is a teacher - what's more benevolent a profession than that?).

I do, however, think it is important to acknowledge that religion is a cultural institution, so it follows that it will be affected by the culture in which it exists. In this case, it is rather odd that so much money and effort would be spent on building this neogothic cathedral as a place of worship for a religion that initially was built on renouncement of material gain. I doubt the historical man Jesus, the man who gave that "sermon on the mount" speech, would have approved. But, considering the culture, the US (and Europe historically) seems to have a penchant for adapting the worst aspects of the Christian religion, rather than the more benevolent ones. So I can see PZ's disgust with this building.

What I struggle with, though, is wether the awe inspired by these expensive buildings is a suitable replacement for the social welfare which could have been achieved by the same monetary output.

Jamie

#11926: Arcane — 12/26 at 07:50 PM
maryh,
Now you're onto something. The people who built those places had to have been insane. Although they are fascinating, in a morbid sort of way, and I am amazed at how carefully crafted and designed they are.

Jamie,
I say "hate-filled" because the way he loathes and automatically dismisses everything that might have to do with religion is dogmatic to the extreme. He reminds me of neo-Nazis who dismiss practically everything because some Jews were involved in it.

And as far as that building being expensive, it's very, very old. I'd say they probably spent about the same amount building it as a small corporation would spend on it's HQ today.

Churches conduct a massive amount of social welfare services on money that is given to them voluntarily by their members... don't dismiss them and their members quite so quickly.

#11938: Hank Fox — 12/27 at 02:11 AM
Arcane, ahem.

You know that part where you say "I never cease to be astounded by old PZ and his hate-filled lifestyle"?

Talk about projection. Jeez.

#11939: PZ Myers — 12/27 at 09:04 AM
Arcane does have a problem with projection.

I can listen to Bach with nothing but pleasure, even though religion is embedded deep in his music. I'm well aware that the classical style is derived from a culture that made atheism a death-penalty offense. I've said nothing about taking Nazi-style approaches to addressing the "problem", and find the very idea repugnant to an extreme.

I think the church is a waste of money and time and human effort; don't give me that tired old crap about their social efforts when I can walk into a massive building on some of the most expensive real estate in the world, all of it dedicated to glorifying a non-existent being and enriching a hierarchy of drones. What it reminds me of is Stalin-style state architecture: massive wastefulness to maintain the cult.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris

#11941: — 12/27 at 11:06 AM
Does Sam Raimi know about this place? Seems like it would make a spendid dark gothic set for the next Spiderman movie.

#11943: Chris Clarke — 12/27 at 11:23 AM

I think the church is a waste of money and time and human effort

Yes, but it seems to have done its intended job, to wit: distracting you from the decades of child molestation performed by the owners.

"I do not think we should antagonize the religious when it is not warranted, though I think we should be willing to do so whenever it is.”
-- Glen Davidson

#11951: Arcane — 12/27 at 12:40 PM
LMAO Chris! Now that's funny.

And Hank, would you like to explain yourself?

#11954: Steve — 12/27 at 12:53 PM
Enjoy your vacation!

If you see my kids walking around say hi! (Yea, I know, you are in New York City and there are millions). When I lived there I was truely amazed by how often I'd get asked whether I knew so and so.

The kids arrive late tonight and will be there until Sunday doing tourist stuff and attending evening concerts:

6'6.5" reddish blond crewcut young 20s guy and
5'11+" blond 19ish girl

They have read this post so might even recognize you...

)

#11969: Hank Fox — 12/27 at 01:56 PM
No, Arcane, I wouldn't like to explain myself.

"Projection" is an in-joke among us evil atheists, far too rich and subtle for one such as you.

Besides, why should I give away our amusing little secrets to people like you? You might as well ask me to share the Secret Atheist Handshake, or let you wear my atheist lodge Large Funny Hat.

#11972: Arcane — 12/27 at 02:03 PM
Hank,
So you're just a name-caller. Lovely. Just shows your intellectual brilliance. *rolls eyes*

#11973: Arcane — 12/27 at 02:06 PM
Oh, and I'm well aware of what you mean by "projection," however you still haven't exactly explained what I've said that is hateful.

I think you're probably an extremely hate-filled person, as evidenced by the fact that you consider yourself superior to any and all who disagree with you.

#11987: Chris Clarke — 12/27 at 04:00 PM

So you’re just a name-caller.

Um, Arcane? That argument doesn't really work too well after you compare a whole group of commenters to the Nazis.

"I do not think we should antagonize the religious when it is not warranted, though I think we should be willing to do so whenever it is.”
-- Glen Davidson

#12024: — 12/28 at 11:05 AM
Hank Fox is extremely hate filled. Arcane's genocidal god is all-loving. Welcome to Opposite Land.

Homer: Wait wait wait, so in August it's cold?
Lisa: That's right.
Homer: And in February, it's hot?
Lisa: Mmhmm.
Homer: So it's opposite land! Crooks chase cops, cats have puppies!
Lisa: No, dad, it's just the weather.
Homer: So hot snow falls up?
Lisa: :sighs: Yes.

#12025: — 12/28 at 11:08 AM
By Godwin's Law, Arcane automatically lost the argument.

#12122: — 12/29 at 03:01 PM
Y'all get your panties in a wad over the silliest things. PZ, you're the only person I know of who has religious fervor for NOT believing. FWIW, the left-over marble from NY's St. Marks was sold to a soda-pop (!) manufacturer to become bubbles. Cool, huh? Religion is like, so ante-20th Century. The only religion still going is Islam and those dimwits (Arabic speakers) translate fewer books than Greece.

Science won by default. Why are you still jumping up and down when there's more research to be done?

Speaking of cool stuff to see in NYC, PZ—check out the Met's Arms and Armor exhibit, there's a daisho to die for in the case.

#12128: — 12/29 at 05:48 PM
Chris Clarke: By the way, why didn't you warn me about the weather? After an exquisite transit of several segments of the Tonopah Tidewater I dared the weather over the dome to Kelso—and all were punish-ed. Between the aa flow and the Joshua forest the winds gusted so hard it slammed the windshield, pinching my fingers against the wheel. Yikes! I noted the libs paved the roads, ostensibly so Volvos could be driven to the trail (read old road) heads.
Half-expected to see you and Happy Hound at the railroad crossing.

#12131: Chris Clarke — 12/29 at 07:39 PM
Happy hound doesn't like the Mojave much.

Oh, and those roads have been paved since before Volvi made it here.

"I do not think we should antagonize the religious when it is not warranted, though I think we should be willing to do so whenever it is.”
-- Glen Davidson

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Saturday, December 25, 2004

Christmas in NYC

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