Pharyngula

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Tuesday, June 21, 2005

Complex cnidarians

John Wilkins points me to an article by Carl Zimmer in the NYT on complexity in cnidarians, and tells me I have to discuss it. When Wilkins tells me to do something, I don't ask when, and I don't just hop to it instantly—I hop into my time machine and get it done six months before he asks me, with an update a month before. Jeez, but I'm good.

The question is about the validity of germ layers as a marker of phylogenetic history. I think it still holds up; gastrulation was a watershed event. What the cnidarian story is telling us, though, is that molecular complexity preceded the step in tissue diversification. Here, I'll really be full of myself and quote me:

The kernel of this idea is already in evolutionary theory, that evolution may proceed by duplication and expansion of elements of the genome, followed by fine-tuning, specialization, and paring down. In that sense, as a general observation, this result isn't surprising at all. What is unexpected is how far back in time we have to push the period of expansion of complexity. The original bilaterian was equipped with a fairly elaborate set of molecular tools.

The observation that genomic complexity is not tightly coupled to morphological complexity is also important. What that is saying is that the diversification of complex forms observed in the Cambrian was not going on concurrently with an elaboration of genetic systems, but was instead built on a foundation of rich genomic resources accumulated during the previous few billion years.

I think growing genetic complexity is only one part of the story, and that what the evolution of gastrulation did was provide novel epigenetic circumstances that amplified genomic potential. Interactions between tissue layers are still a key distinction.


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Comments:
#29228: — 06/21  at  07:44 AM
Man, I love coming here, but I get bummed when a story gets posted that I don't understand anything in it.



#29231: — 06/21  at  07:47 AM
What that is saying is that the diversification of complex forms observed in the Cambrian was not going on concurrently with an elaboration of genetic systems, but was instead built on a foundation of rich genomic resources accumulated during the previous few billion years.

I am embarassed to admit I don't remember some of my courses terribly well, but I've always had the impression this is how it happened. Either we were taught this or given it as a "best guess" by one of our professors.



#29234: John Wilkins — 06/21  at  08:02 AM
Damn you and your time machine, Myers (if that's how you really spell your name)! I'll get you yet!

John S. Wilkins : evolvethought.blogspot.com



#29236: charlie wagner — 06/21  at  08:12 AM
Carl Zimmer wrote:
"Much to their surprise, the scientists found that some genes switched on in embryos were nearly identical to the genes that determined the head-to-tail axis of bilaterians, including humans. More surprisingly, the genes switched on in the same head-to-tail pattern as in bilaterians.

Further studies showed that cnidarians used other genes from the bilaterian tool kit. The same genes that patterned the front and back of the bilaterian embryo, for example, were produced on opposite sides of the anemone embryo.

The findings have these scientists wondering why cnidarians use such a complex set of body-building genes when their bodies end up looking so simple."

Indeed...

What it's got me to wondering is how genes can "evolve" before the organisms that use them. It seems to me that these genes were there from the very beginning, they didn't "evolve" from other genes, they were part of a program of evolution in which more complex structures emerged by switching on genetic potential that was already present.
It is evidence that what you call evolution is in reality the unfolding of a program that was already present in the genomes of primitive organisms at the time of their initial arrival on earth.



#29253: — 06/21  at  09:28 AM
If you'd read the article, Charlie, you'd discover that it is suggested that cnidarians evolved from a bilateral ancestor, so the bilateral tool kit had already evolved for use in that ancestor.



#29273: — 06/21  at  11:38 AM
Charlie, this exceeds even your usual level of insanity --
you seem to be suggesting that the only thing you could believe is that genes evolved *after* the organisms which use them.
Oh, wait -- I guess that IS what you believe.
More's the pity.

Shirley Knott



#29317: Bryson Brown — 06/21  at  05:38 PM
There's an important assumption in Charlie's maunderings here-- an important mistake ID types often make. It's the notion that a function some genes now perform must be the only function they ever did (or ever could?) perform. But functions change, in the course of evolution. So the fact that these genes may have existed before a function that they now perform did is not the least bit troubling for evolutionary theory. We don't have to suppose (as Charlie claims) that they developed under no selection constraints and simply waited around until their time came. So when he says:

It seems to me that these genes were there from the very beginning, they didn't "evolve" from other genes, they were part of a program of evolution in which more complex structures emerged by switching on genetic potential that was already present.


The right answer is, no, it doesn't seem that way at all, unless you already believe that's how it happened. Evolution changes functions, even the functions of genes. (If you're not comfortable with the function talk here, I should say that I'm assuming something like Larry Wright's definition, which has roots going all the way back to Kant at least, of something whose presence (in an object, or a population of objects) is explained by its own effects. Natural selection produces precisely that kind of trait...)



#29319: Jim — 06/21  at  06:02 PM

There's an important assumption in Charlie's maunderings here-- an important mistake ID types often make. It's the notion that a function some genes now perform must be the only function they ever did (or ever could?) perform


Well of course they make that assumption. They have to, or they'd be forced to acknowledge ID as the nonsense it is.



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