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Wednesday, October 19, 2005

Contributing to Behe's sense of martyrdom

Echoed on the Panda's Thumb

I think I'm liking the Kitzmiller case.

Not only is it looking like the creationist side is going to go down hard, but it's also accomplishing something very useful: it's exposing the incompetence, hypocrisy, and pariah status of one of the current Icons of Intelligent Design, Michael Behe. He's a guy the Discovery Institute loves to trot out as a star of their show. He has a Ph.D. in biochemistry! He's a professor at a respectable university! He published articles in real scientific journals! He has published a bestselling book!

It's no wonder the DI peddled away from this trial as quickly as their tricycle would take them…Behe is getting eviscerated. And all the lawyers had to do was expose his own words.

Even the title of this article makes it clear: Backer of theory contradicted self, lawyer suggests.

Behe also said intelligent design does not maintain that life began abruptly, and does not specify God as the unidentified designer.

But plaintiffs' attorney Eric Rothschild produced documents, including Behe's own writings, that suggested otherwise.

Among the documents Rothschild highlighted in a PowerPoint presentation was an article in which Behe wrote that intelligent design is "much less plausible for those that deny God's existence."

True enough. I deny the existence of all gods, and I don't see any mechanism for his proposed explanation; Behe himself falls back on a god as the source of his design. Evolution, on the other hand, is independent of any beliefs in gods—an atheist like me has no problem with it, and neither do long lists of biologists who are also religious.

Behe has been caught dissembling. I think that's a no-no when testifying.

As for the idea that ID isn't about life beginning abruptly…

Rothschild also showed a section of the intelligent design book Of Pandas and People, in which Behe contributed a chapter and was listed as a "critical reviewer," stating that intelligent design means life forms "began abruptly."

Behe said under questioning that he did not agree with that definition of intelligent design.

What exactly does Behe think it means? He is an incredible waffler, who refuses to be pinned down on any specifics, except that he will loudly proclaim that no one has ever shown any evidence for the evolution of any biochemical pathway. He announces this at his talks, and the message is clear that evolution is not responsible for any cellular processes. So how does Dr Behe think the first cell appeared? I'd like to see him pinned down harder on this point.

Behe is definitely an outsider to science.

During cross-examination, Rothschild, of the law firm Pepper Hamilton in Philadelphia, produced documents indicating that intelligent design is rejected by the majority of scientific groups - as well as the biology faculty at Behe's own university.

He got to his current position by doing good work on histone molecular biology, but now he's gone off on a weird and untenable tack. Of course few in science accept his position.

Behe repeatedly compared intelligent design to the big bang theory, saying the big bang was rejected by mainstream scientists for decades before being accepted.

"Intelligent design is in the same category as the big bang," which took 30 years to become widely accepted by scientists, he said.

Hey, anybody else remember the big kerfluffle years ago when the Big-Bangists where struggling with the courts to get their theories into the high school textbooks, to the opposition of those intransigent Steady-Staters? Remember all the Supreme Court victories it took to get physicists to accept it? No? Hmmm, neither do I.

The article in the Inky was pretty good. The New York Times takes a stab at it, too, with mixed results. At least they start with a zinger.

A leading architect of the intelligent-design movement defended his ideas in a federal courtroom on Tuesday and acknowledged that under his definition of a scientific theory, astrology would fit as neatly as intelligent design.

Ouch. I'll be looking for the details of that one in the court transcripts, as soon as they are available. There is some wonderful ammo to use against these guys emerging from this trial.

Mike Argento has highlighted this amazing comment from Behe rather more effectively than has the New York Times.

In order to call intelligent design a "scientific theory," he had to change the definition of the term. It seemed the definition offered by the National Academy of Science, the largest and most prestigious organization of scientists in the Western world, was inadequate to contain the scope and splendor and just plain gee-willigerness of intelligent design.

So he devised his own definition of theory, expanding upon the definition of those stuck-in-the-21st-century scientists, those scientists who ridicule him and call his "theory" creationism in a cheap suit.

He'd show them. He'd come up with his own definition.

Details aside, his definition was broader and more inclusive of ideas that are "outside the box."

So, as we learned Tuesday, during Day 11 of the Dover Panda Trial, under his definition of a scientific theory, astrology would be a scientific theory.

(You know, I'm finding the York Daily Record a far better paper for the details of this trial than the NYT.)

But back to the NYT article. Look at this spectacular example of empty handwaving:

In an attempt to pin Professor Behe down, Mr. Rothschild asked, "What is the mechanism that intelligent design is proposing?"

Mr. Behe said: "It does not propose a mechanism in the sense of a step-by-step description of how these structures arose." He added that "the word 'mechanism' can be used broadly" and said the mechanism was "intelligent activity."

Mr. Rothschild concluded, "Sounds pretty tautological, Professor Behe."

"No, I don't think so," he responded. He likened the process to seeing the sphinx in Egypt, or the stone heads on Easter Island, and concluding that someone must have designed them.

Admission number one: ID does not propose a mechanism. He criticizes evolution for not having the step-by-step details of every single evolutionary event, but gives ID a pass, because it doesn't even propose anything. It's not just tautological, it's intellectually vacant.

Admission number two: All he's got is the "looks like" argument. This is such a tiresome excuse; he's playing to an audience of the credulous. Pointing to artifacts and saying that someone made it does not mean one can point to anything and say someone made it. Maybe a painting implies a painter, but rain does not imply a rainer.

Of course, this being from the New York Times, they have to pull on the clown shoes before they can publish the article, so it ends on this silly note.

Listening from the front row of the courtroom, a school board members said he found Professor Behe's testimony reaffirming. "Doesn't it sound like he knows what he's talking about?" said the Rev. Ed Rowand, a board member and church pastor. Mr. Rowand said the "core of the issue" is, "Do we have the academic freedom to tell our children there are other points of view besides Darwin's?"

A) It doesn't sound like he knows what he's talking about, and B) this isn't about silencing points of view, but affirming what are valid and justifiable scientific views that can be presented in a classroom as science.

I'll forgive the reporter that lapse into religious pandering, since the rest of the article did a good job of exposing Behe; I grant no such boon to CNN, for putting up a completely uncritical look at Behe. For all the grief I give the print media, the televised medium is even worse.

One last thing. While Behe is getting crucified in the courts and the press, don't expect this to stop him or his colleagues. The man has a serious persecution complex, and this will just fuel their need to be seen as an oppressed minority. Burt Humburg brought an interesting example to my attention. A while back, a letter Behe sent to a journal was rejected, and he did something unusual: he published the correspondence on the web. It's very strange, because the senior advisor to the editor who reviewed it tore it to pieces in no uncertain terms.

Metaphysicians who want science to speak out in favor of their beliefs, if not demonstrate them, are already put in a tight spot by the science of yesterday and have nothing to fear more than the science of tomorrow.

In this referee's judgment, the manuscript of Michael Behe does not contribute anything useful to evolutionary science. The arguments presented are weak.

Incidentally, publication in a scientific journal of this article could not be construed as anything resembling a First Amendment right. Naysayers such as Michael Behe have not been muzzled. They have repeatedly aired their point of view, and so be it.

The editor also chimed in on the rejection.

The editors have concluded that the journal should not undertake this project. The reasons are varied, but primarily they reduce to our general feeling that it is not possible to develop a meaningful discussion when the fundamental assumptions of the arguments are so different: on the one hand, the concept of intelligent design beyond the laws of nature is based on intuitive, philosophical, or religious grounds, while on the other, the study and explanation of all levels of the living world, including the molecular level, is based on scientific fact and inference.

This is the reason the IDists can't get published: weak arguments from metaphysics rather than evidence. Of course, Behe just blames it on dogmatic orthodoxy rather than the inadequacy of his own work.

The exchange was posted on the DI's Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture website, but seems to have disappeared. You can still find it in the web archives if you look hard enough, and just to be sure, I've tucked a complete copy of the senior advisor's critique (which I don't entirely agree with, by the way) below the fold.



From an archive of articles on the Discovery Institute site:

Review of "Obstacles to gene duplication as an explanation for complex biochemical systems" by Michael Behe.

In the section "Meaning of explanation," the author harps on the extreme difficulty of elucidating complicated cellular interaction systems and of tracing the evolution of biological complexity. It is ironic that he should voice his concerns just as technical as well as conceptual progress has opened the door to investigating on a much larger scale than heretofore the mechanisms of development, and the increase in gene interaction complexity along certain lines of descent. Michael Behe is depicting a hopeless situation for the biological sciences, or at least for their evolutionary aspects, just as biology is proceeding through a glorious age.

A classical error of people who believe that complex gene interaction systems and other complex biological systems present an insuperable difficulty to evolutionary science is to imply that every component of the system has or has had only one function. In reality, every gene, or its ancestors, or its duplicated brothers and cousins, or all of these, usually exert multiple functions and can be re-mobilized for building up new complex systems or can be dropped from a complex system without being dropped from the functioning genome. The function of the system itself may change (an oft quoted morphological example: folds that act as gliders related to wings); intermediate stages function differently from the terminal stage considered, but do function, indeed. If evolutionary pathways were difficult to find, nature faced these difficulties and solved them. The scientist's job is just to follow nature, and that he believes he can do.

It is interesting to show--Behe examines this claim--that by knocking two genes out of this cascade, the resulting organisms are less abnormal than those that have lost only one of two genes. Yet, it is by no means necessary to be able to provide such a demonstration. Not being able to provide it does not authorize anyone to consider the system as "irreducibly" complex, in Behe's metaphysical sense of irreducible.

On the other hand, the mutational acquisition of modified or new functions by duplicated genes has been witnessed many times by sequence comparisons and other approaches, and there is no trace of an "irreducible" difficulty here either, despite Behe's claims.

This reviewer is no authority on the blood clotting cascade, but if a plausible model for its evolutionary development, compatible with all known facts, has indeed not been generated so far, the remaining question marks are not threat to science--on the contrary, they are a challenge added to thousands of other challenges that science met and meets. In this instance, too, science will be successful.

Is that too bold a prediction? On the contrary, it is not bold. If science, in the modern sense of the word (defined by its method), were only just beginning its career, onlookers would naturally be divided into optimists and pessimists. But, as young as science still is, its accomplishments have verified over and over again that the world of the observable and the measurable is understandable in terms of the observed and measured. Pessimism in this respect has come to lack intellectual status.

In the face of this evidence, Dr. Behe's stance is quasi-heroic, but it is heroism at the service of a lost and mistaken cause. He is not deterred by the fact that molecular biology is only about 50 years old, that during this period it has generated an almost overwhelming amount of fundamental understanding, that more understanding is obviously on its way; further, that the study of the molecular bases of development had to wait for its turn: it was able to take off seriously only within the last decade. All of these studies will be amplified if there is peace in the world, and many biological problems that Dr. Behe today uses as drums to proclaim his faith will be solved in ways that cannot be but disappointing to him.

The trust expressed by the present referee is based on the lessons of several hundred years of history of science. It is really a very short history judged in terms of human history in general, and, considering the recorded accomplishments, it takes a fair amount of intellectual "chuzpah" to reproach science for the understanding that it has not yet achieved.

This reviewer thinks that there is a great deal of misunderstanding around the role of intelligence in the world. The world itself, through the interactions that take place under the reign of natural law, manifests a sort of intelligence--an intelligence much greater than our intelligence--out of which our intelligence has very likely arisen as a product. No wonder, then, that, to our intelligence, the universe appears intelligent: there is a close kinship between the universe and our mind--as one would expect, since our intelligence is shaped so as to permit us to get along in the world. (". . . So as to permit us . . .": language often induces us to seem to express the presence of an intent when none is implied; none is here.) Consistently to use the phrase "intelligent design" instead of God is almost cheating, since this use has an ambiguous relation to the presence in the universe of a sort of intelligence that, except perhaps in a pantheistic sense if one wishes to think so, has no implication regarding the existence of a God. God, here, stands for a being that combines consciousness, will, and universal power.

Of course science has its limits, but they are surely not where Behe places them; they are not, indeed, in the realm of biological evolution. The perception of science's limits will evolve as science itself evolves, and the limits won't furnish an argument in favor of intelligent design in the sense of a design imagines by a universal "person." The argument will be in favor of the finiteness of the analytical powers of the human mind. The limits of science will probably be recognized as being, in part, imposed by the position in the universe of the intelligent (human) observer. Whatever God's role in the universe, if any, biology will be understood without reference to him. That is implied by the essence of science.

Behe wants to be able to say that this is not so, and he needs to say it very quickly, because every day any conceivable ground for making his statement shrinks further. The faith of scientists is that the world of phenomena can be understood, and that the transformations of this world leading up to the present state of affairs can be understood. Developments conform every day that, progressively, scientists are winning this bet. Whatever is discovered, the most surprising as well as the less surprising, will be part of nature: the supernatural has no place in the observable and measurable.

Metaphysicians who want science to speak out in favor of their beliefs, if not demonstrate them, are already put in a tight spot by the science of yesterday and have nothing to fear more than the science of tomorrow.

In this referee's judgment, the manuscript of Michael Behe does not contribute anything useful to evolutionary science. The arguments presented are weak.

Incidentally, publication in a scientific journal of this article could not be construed as anything resembling a First Amendment right. Naysayers such as Michael Behe have not been muzzled. They have repeatedly aired their point of view, and so be it.

If Behe were right in spite of all, it would become apparent in due time through failures of science. It would be very much out of place to denounce such failures now, since they have not occurred. Having not yet understood all of biology is not a failure after just 200 years, given the amount of understanding already achieved. Let us speak about it again in 1000 years. Meanwhile, metaphysicians should spare scientists their metaphysics and just let the scientists do their work--or join them in doing it.



(In case anyone is wondering what I object to in the above, I find the Argument from Scientific Triumphalism a little off-putting. I know there will be many things that will not be explained in my lifetime, and also many things that will not be explained in a thousand years; we can't expect the critics to say nothing until we're done talking, because scientists are never going to shut up.)


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Comments:
#44636: — 10/19  at  09:45 AM
"No, I don't think so," he responded. He likened the process to seeing the sphinx in Egypt, or the stone heads on Easter Island, and concluding that someone must have designed them.


Even if we accept that seeing the "process" of design in lifeforms is like seeing the sphinx, his argument that then there is no mechanism to study is just plain wrong.

I don't know about you, but I've seen lots of TV shows and articles about scientists going to Egypt and Easter Island and such TRYING to figure out HOW the Sphinx and etc were designed. They don't just say, "Hm, those look designed. Neat." They say, "Hm, those look designed. Let's figure out HOW they were deisgned. What mechanism was USED to make these things. Let's FIGURE IT OUT."



#44637: coturnix — 10/19  at  09:47 AM
They'll keep screaming to people in pews, but legally, Dover is going to set them back a LOT.

Also, considering evolution of biochemical pathways, has anyone read this book?



#44640: Orac — 10/19  at  09:59 AM
Behe repeatedly compared intelligent design to the big bang theory, saying the big bang was rejected by mainstream scientists for decades before being accepted.
"Intelligent design is in the same category as the big bang," which took 30 years to become widely accepted by scientists, he said.

Ah, a lovely example of the Galileo gambit. Too bad that, to wear the mantle of Galileo, you must also be right--or at least have some compelling scientific evidence to suggest that you are right.

--
Orac “A statement of fact cannot be insolent.”
http://oracknows.blogspot.com



#44642: — 10/19  at  10:02 AM
I agree that the York Daily record provides better coverage than most other papers. I wrote Mike Argento a 'Thank You' e-mail, for playing the role of H.L. Mencken in Scopes + 80. He demurred from the comparison on the grounds of modesty, but agreed with me that, unlike Mencken, he can stay to report on the whole shee-bang, as he can't be run out of his own town. I imagine he's not a popular guy at the local Turkey Hill.

Tom



#44643: mark — 10/19  at  10:08 AM
In an attempt to pin Professor Behe down, Mr. Rothschild asked, "What is the mechanism that intelligent design is proposing?"

Mr. Behe said: "It does not propose a mechanism in the sense of a step-by-step description of how these structures arose." He added that "the word 'mechanism' can be used broadly" and said the mechanism was "intelligent activity."


What makes this all the more remarkable is that, as the York Daily Record reported it, just before this response Behe stated "...intelligent design theory focuses exclusively on proposed mechanisms of how biological structures arose." This is the same Bozo who insists that evolutionary theory must be able to explain proven, step-by-step mechanisms of the evolution of features. And just what the hell is "intelligent activity"--playing chess instead of watching NASCAR? I recall Behe described this elsewhere as "poof!"



#44645: — 10/19  at  10:16 AM
As I've posted elsewhere, a scientist could determine that Mt. Rushmore was carved and the (former) Old Man of the Mountain was not, even if that scientist had NEVER seen rock sculpture by making comparative observations and conducting controlled experiments. Beginning with a hypothesis that Mt. Rushmore was carved with intent, using spalled fragments collected a the base of the monument and experimenting with similar rock and a variety of tools an experimenter could reproduce the surfaces both on the carving and on the fragments carved away and left on the scree slope. No tools and/or process could duplicate the naturally eroded surface of the granite of the Old Man - removing any more than a few millimeters of rock from any unfractured surface, such as would be necessary to shape such a monument, reveals an uneroded fabric uncharacteristic of the visible outer surface.

You see where I am going.

If no other geologist does it, I am going to request that the National Park Service send me a few samples of spalled rock from the base of Mt. Rushmore so I can dispell this all-too-sophomoric play on the credulity of ignorant people.

Tom



#44646: Kristine Harley — 10/19  at  10:21 AM
Uhh...dumb question for that genius Behe:

Doesn't even human-directed "design" go through a trial-and-error process? When something is designed by human beings, does it spring full-blown from blueprint to architectural footprint through the efforts of one person? Or even one corporate entity? No, Virginia, it doesn't. It takes a committee, and they can really screw up buildings. (I notice that Behe doesn't use the mountain statue of Crazy Horse as an example, as that has been dragging on for decades.)

If use human design as an analogy to say that we see "design" in nature, perhaps the "intelligent design committee" accounts for all of the extinctions and errors in nature, and why doesn't Behe talk about MULTIPLE DESIGNERS, huh? Intelligent conceptual designers, intelligent architectural designers, and (but you knew this was coming, right?) intelligent interior designers? Wouldn't warring gods (oh, excuse me, ID is a "science," I forgot myself), I mean designers, account for the sloppiness of this grand "design?"

Doesn't polytheism (or poly-designism) make more sense than one Designer? I mean, if we're going to open the door for astrology...



#44647: — 10/19  at  10:21 AM
Yes, it's incredibly tiresome to hear "it looks designed". The IDiots like Behe forget that one does not look at a man's head and a lion's body in all forms and conclude "design". If a man's head is in its "natural state", and same with a lion's body, the normal conclusion is "not design" (really, even religions only resorted to magic to explain life most of the time, and not "design" per se). Stick the head of a dead man on a lion's body and you do say "design", but not for the head and the body. The only gruesome "design" was supplied by the moron who stuck a man's head on a lion's body.

What "natural" means differs between contexts, and it is not really a scientific or philosophical category at all. However, using the normal sense of the word in these contexts, we only note what is "not natural" as possibly being "designed" by humans or animals (depending if we're calling animal creations "designs"). A face on Rushmore or on Easter Island is non-natural simply because it is not life (evolved life), but rather is an imitation of life. Similarly, we recognize that the pyramids of Egypt are designed not because pyramidal shapes never appear in nature, but because they do not appear in the way that Egyptian pyramids do. Likewise, a cube is a "natural form" in a number of minerals, while a cube of iron or titanium is not, nor is a cubic block of limestone (used in pyramid construction), and so we identify certain cubes like certain face forms, as being "designed" simply because of the context.

But of course Behe ignores context entirely, stupidly concluding that a face shape is the result of design ipso facto. This is what is wrong with the IDists, they have absolutely no sense of context, of cause and effect relationships, of what is "natural" or "non-natural" in a given situation or why certain things can be so designated, or of the need to actually establish design in the cases where it is not so obvious as it is in the Sphinx or in the cubic block of limestone. Behe thinks that scientific generalization means applying common sense ideas, which work at one time and on one thing, indiscriminately across phenomena--including biological phenomena. He probably is (or at least was) good at critical thinking in his field, but he has no sense whatsoever of the "natural look" of evolved structures that are seen in organisms.

Plus, he, like other IDists, totally ignores normal "design criteria" when they claim to identify design. Most crucially, design as we know it involves "borrowing" ideas rather indiscriminately from one's environment, and using these in creative original recombinations. Thus the sphinx. Does the dolt have a clue that if we saw a living creature with the head of a man and the body of a lion, and absolutely no evidence of evolution of such a being in a reasonable manner, that we'd at least be casting for ideas, maybe including (probably alian) design? Of course we would. The sphinx in Egypt looks designed in a way that neither human heads nor lion bodies do. It has no intermediates, it has no genetic information showing derivation, and it has no apparent evolutionary function--only a symbolic function to humans.

Compare apples to apples, Behe. A living sphinx, without any evidence showing its evolution from reasonable prior forms, would indeed be understood by us as at least having a number of the characteristics of design (not all, of course, since we don't understand how humans or animals could make a living sphinx today, while we do understand how humans could make a stone sphinx and can see the tool marks left behind), and we might at least entertain the hypothesis that this living sphinx was designed in some way. We will not do so for humans and lions given the evidence at hand.



#44648: — 10/19  at  10:23 AM
I'm afraid I don't understand the legal system too well. Is perjury an issue or possibility in this kind of case?



#44649: — 10/19  at  10:25 AM
I liked this part and have been trying to express something similar recently:

This reviewer thinks that there is a great deal of misunderstanding around the role of intelligence in the world. The world itself, through the interactions that take place under the reign of natural law, manifests a sort of intelligence--an intelligence much greater than our intelligence--out of which our intelligence has very likely arisen as a product.


The mechanisms that Behe and Dembski trot out for laypersons, such as the flagellum, are always the ones that look most like human inventions. But why do we imagine that the human design process is especially powerful as compared to evolution?

Like evolution, human design is driven by trial and error, and proceeds by incremental refinement and exploration of hybrid forms. No human invention comes suddenly in a mysterious burst of brilliance. Humans have a few advantages over natural selection, such as the ability to simulate and analyze a design before constructing a prototype. But this leads at best to increased efficiency, not increased creative power. And humans haven't been at it nearly as long.

To put it another way, it seems that if you had an argument to prove that evolution could not possibly develop a flagellum in a billion years, you ought to be able to show that humans could not invent an outboard motor in a thousand years. Neither living systems nor human inventions come close to optimizing the choppy objective functions dealt with in the no-free-lunch theorem that Dembski misapplies. Both function only in spaces somewhat amenable to hill-climbing. Evolution and the history of technology both require the existence of transitional forms. The examples themselves are not always extant, but in either case, the sudden appearance of something entirely new at a sufficient level of complexity would demand an explanation more compelling than mere "intelligent design."

If Dembski were doing more than blowing smoke, he could perhaps develop a filter for identifying some kind of omniscient design--solutions to optimization problems so hard that no feasible algorithm exists to find them. I doubt very much such mechanisms exist in living systems, but there might be a formalism to identify some of them. But a formalism to distinguish between evolution over 10^9 years and mere human intelligence over 10^3 years seems elusive to me. If Dembski could do that, why not tackle something easier like showing P!=NP?



#44650: — 10/19  at  10:30 AM

"No, I don't think so," he responded. He likened the process to seeing the sphinx in Egypt, or the stone heads on Easter Island, and concluding that someone must have designed them.

Those who use the 'argument from design' just don't seem to 'get it'.

a) How about the mousetrap? That's designed.

b) Your whole class of argument is fallacious.

a) Then there's Mt. Rushmore, and Easter Island, and the sphynx too!

Somewhere a distinction between quality and quantity is not being met.



#44651: — 10/19  at  10:34 AM
the concept of intelligent design beyond the laws of nature is based on intuitive, philosophical, or religious grounds, while on the other, the study and explanation of all levels of the living world, including the molecular level, is based on scientific fact and inference.


Exactly.

-----
"As with all of ID, the important thing is first to have the concept. Production can then follow as a matter of course.” -Dembski



#44652: — 10/19  at  10:38 AM
There is a very good report on the New Scientist website:
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8178

Because ID has been rejected by virtually every scientist and science organisation, and has never once passed the muster of a peer-reviewed journal paper, Behe admitted that the controversial theory would not be included in the NAS definition. “I can’t point to an external community that would agree that this was well substantiated,” he said.

Behe said he had come up with his own “broader” definition of a theory, claiming that this more accurately describes the way theories are actually used by scientists. “The word is used a lot more loosely than the NAS defined it,” he says.

Rothschild suggested that Behe’s definition was so loose that astrology would come under this definition as well. He also pointed out that Behe’s definition of theory was almost identical to the NAS’s definition of a hypothesis. Behe agreed with both assertions.

The exchange prompted laughter from the court, which was packed with local members of the public and the school board.



's avatar #44653: PZ Myers — 10/19  at  10:49 AM
Laughter is exactly what we want in response to ID. That's good to hear.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#44654: — 10/19  at  10:50 AM
Look, the real issue with Behe is in PZ's reference to his persecution complex. For reasons unknown, he believes he has discovered something of enormous intellectual magnitude, something on the order of the Big Bang or perhaps even on a par with Newton. That means he is a crackpot. Like many crackpots, he can be rational in his "normal" life while descending deep down the dark tunnel in his area of personal obsession and self-aggrandizing.

Without any real evidence to back this up, my belief is that Behe suffers from a religious martyrdom complex, of the type where he imagines himself as the great defender in a holy battle. His idea - whatever the heck it actually is - becomes his sword and shield. This work is his calling and fighting for it in the face of an uncomprehending (and thus godless?) world is his burden, just as Christ bore the cross on his back.

I'm struck by the megalomaniacal aspects to his pronouncements and writing. What he proposes has some interest if it were stripped of the crackpot aspects. He proposes, if I can make heads or tails out of his mish mosh, a conjecture that certain holes in scientific knowledge cannot be filled and offers as a defense - it can't be called a proof - the concepts of improbability and irreducibility. In a normal scientific discussion, this conjecture would be received and evaluated, much as Hilbert's progam was.

The funny thing is that many areas in the sciences have such conjectures - that a theorem can't be proved, for example - and there are absolutely areas where current scientific theory provides no useful explanation for observed phenomena. Notably, while Quantum Electrodynamics explains the workings of light, etc., it famously offers no explanation of why and the question is often asked if why is even an appropriate question given the apparent "irreducibility" of phenomena like two-slit interference.

It is also entirely common for basic observed scientific truths to be far less known than people suppose. One classic example is gravity, notaby the universal gravitational constant. Why is it that number? We have a theory of gravitons but they are "postulated", meaning they haven't been seen. On a more basic level, we all deal with Pi every day and God knows we take it for granted. But why does Pi have that value and why is it transcendental? Pi establishes the scale of the universe from Planck's Constant on up, so why is it that number? What if Pi were a different number and the universe had a different scale?

Behe's crackpot complex shows in his attraction to evolution because in the popular mind it is evolution which poses the greatest threat to religion. It's the old "only God can make a tree or a porcupine, so don't tell me it was natural selection." He could have chosen any one of hundreds of other areas where science has unknowns but only this one strikes at the popular view that evolution is opposed to God. If he were genuinely serious about his arguments, he would have compiled a vast list of these unknown areas and then extrapolated some meaning from them. That task does not have the allure of being a holy warrior.



#44657: — 10/19  at  11:19 AM
Doesn't polytheism (or poly-designism) make more sense than one Designer?

Yes, because since each designer looks like it was designed, then each designer would have been designed by another designer - and that would take a whole lot of designers. In fact, I don't think there could ever be enough designers to account for all the designees. (Hence the term "polypolypolytheism.")



#44658: — 10/19  at  11:20 AM
"He likened the process to seeing the sphinx in Egypt, or the stone heads on Easter Island, and concluding that someone must have designed them." Here is an interesting line of questioning I have not heard.

1) Dr. Behe, are there more than one spinx showing variation? 2) If so, if the variation heritable?
3) Indeed, do spinxes reproduce?

If you answer no, then, yes, there must have been a spinx designer. Is this true of biological organisms? Yes? Well, there you go. Q,E.D.



#44660: — 10/19  at  11:20 AM
One down, one to go.

When are we going to see Dembski being exposed in a courtroom as the snake oil crook that he is?



#44661: — 10/19  at  11:24 AM
Rothschild suggested that Behe’s definition was so loose that astrology would come under this definition as well. Behe agreed with both assertions.

This is an interesting strategic response by the defense.

Remember : the argument that teaching bogus science violates the Establishment Clause is weak.

The plaintiffs need to make it clear that the FACT that "ID" is bogus science begs the second question: why is there such incredible pressure to teach this bogus science and not incredible pressure on public schools to teach astrology? or UFOlogy? or Sasquatch? or Holocaust dneial? or AIDS denial?

The answer, of course, is plain as paint. Christians have not (yet) been taught by their preachers to believe that the truth about the solar system, the Oregon forests, the holocaust and AIDS is part of conspiracy to spread humanism and materialist dogma. Therefore, there is no need to develop a religious "alternative" such as ID to "combat" the "scientific dogma."

This is an irrebuttable point. Creationists and ID peddlers flee from this simple observation as if it were dynamite.

And this is why the Dover case was over before it began.

The best part about the Dover case? It's just another piece of evidence which shows the religious purpose behind ID. You would think that they would understand by this by now.

How stupid are ID peddlers?

Rock stupid. All they know how to do is lie, and lie badly.



#44662: — 10/19  at  11:25 AM
Sorry to be mildly off-topic, but creationists have begun exploring a new propaganda tactic: Starbucks coffee cups.



#44663: charlie wagner — 10/19  at  11:29 AM
Paul wrote:

"blah, blah, blah..."

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer



#44664: — 10/19  at  11:33 AM
Sorry to be mildly off-topic, but creationists have begun exploring a new propaganda tactic: Starbucks coffee cups.

Link no workee. Try again, please?



#44665: velid — 10/19  at  11:37 AM
Maybe a painting implies a painter, but rain does not imply a rainer.


Hilarious and right on target.

The "looks like" argument is very persuasive. Consider the following passage from Hamlet:

Hamlet: Do you see that cloud, that's almost in shape like a camel?
Polonius: By the mass, and 't is like a camel, indeed.
Hamlet: Methinks, it is like a weasel.
Polonius: It is backed like a weasel.
Hamlet: Or, like a whale?
Polonius: Very like a whale.


Clouds, constellations and rock formations often look very like designed artifacts. I guess in a full on theological interpretation they might be. Is that Behe's argument?



#44666: — 10/19  at  11:40 AM
Charlie, kindly take note that all lies go through 2 stages -- first they are violently ridiculed, second they are violently opposed.
So we really have no grounds for accepting your drivel simply on the basis of being in one of the first two stages (presumably, demonstrably even, the first).
They laughed at Pasteur, they laughed at Einstein, and they laughed at Bozo the Clown.
You, sir, are no Pasteur or Einstein. (Nice red nose, though)

hugs,
Shirley Knott



#44667: — 10/19  at  11:42 AM
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer

Yeah, but a lot of silly nonsense also gets laughed at and violently opposed. Undergoing stages one and two does not imply one will enter stage three.

(After all this time, is it still really necessary to point this out?)



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