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Wednesday, October 19, 2005

Contributing to Behe's sense of martyrdom

Echoed on the Panda's Thumb

I think I'm liking the Kitzmiller case.

Not only is it looking like the creationist side is going to go down hard, but it's also accomplishing something very useful: it's exposing the incompetence, hypocrisy, and pariah status of one of the current Icons of Intelligent Design, Michael Behe. He's a guy the Discovery Institute loves to trot out as a star of their show. He has a Ph.D. in biochemistry! He's a professor at a respectable university! He published articles in real scientific journals! He has published a bestselling book!

It's no wonder the DI peddled away from this trial as quickly as their tricycle would take them…Behe is getting eviscerated. And all the lawyers had to do was expose his own words.

Even the title of this article makes it clear: Backer of theory contradicted self, lawyer suggests.

Behe also said intelligent design does not maintain that life began abruptly, and does not specify God as the unidentified designer.

But plaintiffs' attorney Eric Rothschild produced documents, including Behe's own writings, that suggested otherwise.

Among the documents Rothschild highlighted in a PowerPoint presentation was an article in which Behe wrote that intelligent design is "much less plausible for those that deny God's existence."

True enough. I deny the existence of all gods, and I don't see any mechanism for his proposed explanation; Behe himself falls back on a god as the source of his design. Evolution, on the other hand, is independent of any beliefs in gods—an atheist like me has no problem with it, and neither do long lists of biologists who are also religious.

Behe has been caught dissembling. I think that's a no-no when testifying.

As for the idea that ID isn't about life beginning abruptly…

Rothschild also showed a section of the intelligent design book Of Pandas and People, in which Behe contributed a chapter and was listed as a "critical reviewer," stating that intelligent design means life forms "began abruptly."

Behe said under questioning that he did not agree with that definition of intelligent design.

What exactly does Behe think it means? He is an incredible waffler, who refuses to be pinned down on any specifics, except that he will loudly proclaim that no one has ever shown any evidence for the evolution of any biochemical pathway. He announces this at his talks, and the message is clear that evolution is not responsible for any cellular processes. So how does Dr Behe think the first cell appeared? I'd like to see him pinned down harder on this point.

Behe is definitely an outsider to science.

During cross-examination, Rothschild, of the law firm Pepper Hamilton in Philadelphia, produced documents indicating that intelligent design is rejected by the majority of scientific groups - as well as the biology faculty at Behe's own university.

He got to his current position by doing good work on histone molecular biology, but now he's gone off on a weird and untenable tack. Of course few in science accept his position.

Behe repeatedly compared intelligent design to the big bang theory, saying the big bang was rejected by mainstream scientists for decades before being accepted.

"Intelligent design is in the same category as the big bang," which took 30 years to become widely accepted by scientists, he said.

Hey, anybody else remember the big kerfluffle years ago when the Big-Bangists where struggling with the courts to get their theories into the high school textbooks, to the opposition of those intransigent Steady-Staters? Remember all the Supreme Court victories it took to get physicists to accept it? No? Hmmm, neither do I.

The article in the Inky was pretty good. The New York Times takes a stab at it, too, with mixed results. At least they start with a zinger.

A leading architect of the intelligent-design movement defended his ideas in a federal courtroom on Tuesday and acknowledged that under his definition of a scientific theory, astrology would fit as neatly as intelligent design.

Ouch. I'll be looking for the details of that one in the court transcripts, as soon as they are available. There is some wonderful ammo to use against these guys emerging from this trial.

Mike Argento has highlighted this amazing comment from Behe rather more effectively than has the New York Times.

In order to call intelligent design a "scientific theory," he had to change the definition of the term. It seemed the definition offered by the National Academy of Science, the largest and most prestigious organization of scientists in the Western world, was inadequate to contain the scope and splendor and just plain gee-willigerness of intelligent design.

So he devised his own definition of theory, expanding upon the definition of those stuck-in-the-21st-century scientists, those scientists who ridicule him and call his "theory" creationism in a cheap suit.

He'd show them. He'd come up with his own definition.

Details aside, his definition was broader and more inclusive of ideas that are "outside the box."

So, as we learned Tuesday, during Day 11 of the Dover Panda Trial, under his definition of a scientific theory, astrology would be a scientific theory.

(You know, I'm finding the York Daily Record a far better paper for the details of this trial than the NYT.)

But back to the NYT article. Look at this spectacular example of empty handwaving:

In an attempt to pin Professor Behe down, Mr. Rothschild asked, "What is the mechanism that intelligent design is proposing?"

Mr. Behe said: "It does not propose a mechanism in the sense of a step-by-step description of how these structures arose." He added that "the word 'mechanism' can be used broadly" and said the mechanism was "intelligent activity."

Mr. Rothschild concluded, "Sounds pretty tautological, Professor Behe."

"No, I don't think so," he responded. He likened the process to seeing the sphinx in Egypt, or the stone heads on Easter Island, and concluding that someone must have designed them.

Admission number one: ID does not propose a mechanism. He criticizes evolution for not having the step-by-step details of every single evolutionary event, but gives ID a pass, because it doesn't even propose anything. It's not just tautological, it's intellectually vacant.

Admission number two: All he's got is the "looks like" argument. This is such a tiresome excuse; he's playing to an audience of the credulous. Pointing to artifacts and saying that someone made it does not mean one can point to anything and say someone made it. Maybe a painting implies a painter, but rain does not imply a rainer.

Of course, this being from the New York Times, they have to pull on the clown shoes before they can publish the article, so it ends on this silly note.

Listening from the front row of the courtroom, a school board members said he found Professor Behe's testimony reaffirming. "Doesn't it sound like he knows what he's talking about?" said the Rev. Ed Rowand, a board member and church pastor. Mr. Rowand said the "core of the issue" is, "Do we have the academic freedom to tell our children there are other points of view besides Darwin's?"

A) It doesn't sound like he knows what he's talking about, and B) this isn't about silencing points of view, but affirming what are valid and justifiable scientific views that can be presented in a classroom as science.

I'll forgive the reporter that lapse into religious pandering, since the rest of the article did a good job of exposing Behe; I grant no such boon to CNN, for putting up a completely uncritical look at Behe. For all the grief I give the print media, the televised medium is even worse.

One last thing. While Behe is getting crucified in the courts and the press, don't expect this to stop him or his colleagues. The man has a serious persecution complex, and this will just fuel their need to be seen as an oppressed minority. Burt Humburg brought an interesting example to my attention. A while back, a letter Behe sent to a journal was rejected, and he did something unusual: he published the correspondence on the web. It's very strange, because the senior advisor to the editor who reviewed it tore it to pieces in no uncertain terms.

Metaphysicians who want science to speak out in favor of their beliefs, if not demonstrate them, are already put in a tight spot by the science of yesterday and have nothing to fear more than the science of tomorrow.

In this referee's judgment, the manuscript of Michael Behe does not contribute anything useful to evolutionary science. The arguments presented are weak.

Incidentally, publication in a scientific journal of this article could not be construed as anything resembling a First Amendment right. Naysayers such as Michael Behe have not been muzzled. They have repeatedly aired their point of view, and so be it.

The editor also chimed in on the rejection.

The editors have concluded that the journal should not undertake this project. The reasons are varied, but primarily they reduce to our general feeling that it is not possible to develop a meaningful discussion when the fundamental assumptions of the arguments are so different: on the one hand, the concept of intelligent design beyond the laws of nature is based on intuitive, philosophical, or religious grounds, while on the other, the study and explanation of all levels of the living world, including the molecular level, is based on scientific fact and inference.

This is the reason the IDists can't get published: weak arguments from metaphysics rather than evidence. Of course, Behe just blames it on dogmatic orthodoxy rather than the inadequacy of his own work.

The exchange was posted on the DI's Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture website, but seems to have disappeared. You can still find it in the web archives if you look hard enough, and just to be sure, I've tucked a complete copy of the senior advisor's critique (which I don't entirely agree with, by the way) below the fold.



From an archive of articles on the Discovery Institute site:

Review of "Obstacles to gene duplication as an explanation for complex biochemical systems" by Michael Behe.

In the section "Meaning of explanation," the author harps on the extreme difficulty of elucidating complicated cellular interaction systems and of tracing the evolution of biological complexity. It is ironic that he should voice his concerns just as technical as well as conceptual progress has opened the door to investigating on a much larger scale than heretofore the mechanisms of development, and the increase in gene interaction complexity along certain lines of descent. Michael Behe is depicting a hopeless situation for the biological sciences, or at least for their evolutionary aspects, just as biology is proceeding through a glorious age.

A classical error of people who believe that complex gene interaction systems and other complex biological systems present an insuperable difficulty to evolutionary science is to imply that every component of the system has or has had only one function. In reality, every gene, or its ancestors, or its duplicated brothers and cousins, or all of these, usually exert multiple functions and can be re-mobilized for building up new complex systems or can be dropped from a complex system without being dropped from the functioning genome. The function of the system itself may change (an oft quoted morphological example: folds that act as gliders related to wings); intermediate stages function differently from the terminal stage considered, but do function, indeed. If evolutionary pathways were difficult to find, nature faced these difficulties and solved them. The scientist's job is just to follow nature, and that he believes he can do.

It is interesting to show--Behe examines this claim--that by knocking two genes out of this cascade, the resulting organisms are less abnormal than those that have lost only one of two genes. Yet, it is by no means necessary to be able to provide such a demonstration. Not being able to provide it does not authorize anyone to consider the system as "irreducibly" complex, in Behe's metaphysical sense of irreducible.

On the other hand, the mutational acquisition of modified or new functions by duplicated genes has been witnessed many times by sequence comparisons and other approaches, and there is no trace of an "irreducible" difficulty here either, despite Behe's claims.

This reviewer is no authority on the blood clotting cascade, but if a plausible model for its evolutionary development, compatible with all known facts, has indeed not been generated so far, the remaining question marks are not threat to science--on the contrary, they are a challenge added to thousands of other challenges that science met and meets. In this instance, too, science will be successful.

Is that too bold a prediction? On the contrary, it is not bold. If science, in the modern sense of the word (defined by its method), were only just beginning its career, onlookers would naturally be divided into optimists and pessimists. But, as young as science still is, its accomplishments have verified over and over again that the world of the observable and the measurable is understandable in terms of the observed and measured. Pessimism in this respect has come to lack intellectual status.

In the face of this evidence, Dr. Behe's stance is quasi-heroic, but it is heroism at the service of a lost and mistaken cause. He is not deterred by the fact that molecular biology is only about 50 years old, that during this period it has generated an almost overwhelming amount of fundamental understanding, that more understanding is obviously on its way; further, that the study of the molecular bases of development had to wait for its turn: it was able to take off seriously only within the last decade. All of these studies will be amplified if there is peace in the world, and many biological problems that Dr. Behe today uses as drums to proclaim his faith will be solved in ways that cannot be but disappointing to him.

The trust expressed by the present referee is based on the lessons of several hundred years of history of science. It is really a very short history judged in terms of human history in general, and, considering the recorded accomplishments, it takes a fair amount of intellectual "chuzpah" to reproach science for the understanding that it has not yet achieved.

This reviewer thinks that there is a great deal of misunderstanding around the role of intelligence in the world. The world itself, through the interactions that take place under the reign of natural law, manifests a sort of intelligence--an intelligence much greater than our intelligence--out of which our intelligence has very likely arisen as a product. No wonder, then, that, to our intelligence, the universe appears intelligent: there is a close kinship between the universe and our mind--as one would expect, since our intelligence is shaped so as to permit us to get along in the world. (". . . So as to permit us . . .": language often induces us to seem to express the presence of an intent when none is implied; none is here.) Consistently to use the phrase "intelligent design" instead of God is almost cheating, since this use has an ambiguous relation to the presence in the universe of a sort of intelligence that, except perhaps in a pantheistic sense if one wishes to think so, has no implication regarding the existence of a God. God, here, stands for a being that combines consciousness, will, and universal power.

Of course science has its limits, but they are surely not where Behe places them; they are not, indeed, in the realm of biological evolution. The perception of science's limits will evolve as science itself evolves, and the limits won't furnish an argument in favor of intelligent design in the sense of a design imagines by a universal "person." The argument will be in favor of the finiteness of the analytical powers of the human mind. The limits of science will probably be recognized as being, in part, imposed by the position in the universe of the intelligent (human) observer. Whatever God's role in the universe, if any, biology will be understood without reference to him. That is implied by the essence of science.

Behe wants to be able to say that this is not so, and he needs to say it very quickly, because every day any conceivable ground for making his statement shrinks further. The faith of scientists is that the world of phenomena can be understood, and that the transformations of this world leading up to the present state of affairs can be understood. Developments conform every day that, progressively, scientists are winning this bet. Whatever is discovered, the most surprising as well as the less surprising, will be part of nature: the supernatural has no place in the observable and measurable.

Metaphysicians who want science to speak out in favor of their beliefs, if not demonstrate them, are already put in a tight spot by the science of yesterday and have nothing to fear more than the science of tomorrow.

In this referee's judgment, the manuscript of Michael Behe does not contribute anything useful to evolutionary science. The arguments presented are weak.

Incidentally, publication in a scientific journal of this article could not be construed as anything resembling a First Amendment right. Naysayers such as Michael Behe have not been muzzled. They have repeatedly aired their point of view, and so be it.

If Behe were right in spite of all, it would become apparent in due time through failures of science. It would be very much out of place to denounce such failures now, since they have not occurred. Having not yet understood all of biology is not a failure after just 200 years, given the amount of understanding already achieved. Let us speak about it again in 1000 years. Meanwhile, metaphysicians should spare scientists their metaphysics and just let the scientists do their work--or join them in doing it.



(In case anyone is wondering what I object to in the above, I find the Argument from Scientific Triumphalism a little off-putting. I know there will be many things that will not be explained in my lifetime, and also many things that will not be explained in a thousand years; we can't expect the critics to say nothing until we're done talking, because scientists are never going to shut up.)


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Comments:
#44789: — 10/20  at  07:24 AM
I agree, Kristjan: all the stuff in italics was from the link and was written by Jeffrey Shallit (which I didn't realise before, so I trust the reference a lot more now).

The `roughly along those lines' is probably meant to indicate that the quote is close enough to be the origin of the misquote, even though the meaning is significantly altered.



#44790: — 10/20  at  07:25 AM
I wrote this at another forum, but what the hey. As per one of the above posters -- let's say kirk and Spock teleport to a planet surface. Spock takes out his tricorder and after a moment says: 'Something odd, Captain". "Odd, Spock? Explain..." "There are many readings here for the expected panoply of flora and fauna, and even microfauna...but whole swathes of niches are missing. There are no large carnvores, there are no bacteria or viruses that would cause sickness in humanoids... Captain it is almost as if this planet's ecosystem has been *designed* as a kind of park for humanoids, instead of naturally evolved as I would expect."
{Trekkers will recognize similarity with an original episode}
THAT is one difference between "natural" and "designed". And in that sense at least there is no evidence that our Earth or Milky Way, or Local Group etc. is in any way *designed*.



#44791: charlie wagner — 10/20  at  07:34 AM
Ed Darrell wrote:

"Charlie, not to be too pedantic about it, but Gamow showed his work. Where are your numbers? On what basis do you claim the surface of that moon is silver?"

The purpose of the example was to demonstrate the point that the ability to predict is overrated, since there can be many possible explanations for observed phenomena. Also, a theory is not necessarily correct because it has good "explanatory power". A theory can make perfectly correct predictions, like the geocentric theory and it can have outstanding explanatory power, like phlogisten theory and yet be completely wrong.



#44801: — 10/20  at  08:12 AM

So when is Luskin and/or West going to issue a press-release saying that "Behe doesn't really know what 'intelligent design' is"??

You can find Luskin's latest lies over at Evolution News

Posted By: Casey LUSKIN @ 18:08:26, Categories: CSC News & Views
Backer of Theory Never Contradicted Self, Truth Shows
...

Oddly, there is no mention of astrology.



#44804: — 10/20  at  08:21 AM
Found it! Luskin feels the need to clarify

Posted By: Casey LUSKIN @ 17:05:11, Categories: CSC News & Views
...
Michael Behe, I, and everybody else at Discovery believe that geocentrism and astrology are 100% wrong.
...

I guess Gerardus Bouw is not associated with the Discovery Institute.



#44828: — 10/20  at  10:32 AM
"...but rain does not imply a rainer."
From an evolutionist point of view, perhaps, but the rest of us are happy to have an understanding that raindrops come from clouds.

So you see falling raindrops and just assume they came from...? Or, in the interest of "science," you make no assumptions, just come up with hypotheses to explain their presence rather than doing research to discover their origin? Then you mock those who do the actual research because it conflicts with your hypotheses?
Maybe a painting implies a painter...
And complex machinery doesn't imply a builder, rather than chance? Please.



#44831: Llelldorin — 10/20  at  10:58 AM
Charlie, if you seriously think there could be other explanations for the CMB, come up with one and make it rigorous. Then see what else your model predicts, and see if you can observe that.

I suspect you'll find that your predicted observations won't occur, necessitating an ever-more complicated theory with no predictive power at all. (Remember, "predictive power" means that you can predict cases you haven't yet used as part of the formation of your model. "Everything is exactly the way everything is" is true but vacuous, and has no predictive power even though it matches observations exactly.)

The reason that the CMB was an impressive predicition is precisely that it was predicted before it was observed. If Gamow had worked out an explanation after the fact it would have been much less impressive--the statement would instead be that the BBT is "consistent with" the CMB.

In your Saturnian moon example, you can sort of see what would happen with your "silver moon" theory--someone would look up the other material properties of silver, and point out that the moon doesn't do something that a silver moon ought. You could then claim it's actually an alloy of some sort, leading to more shot down claims. Eventually you'd be forced to either give up, or you'd do something nuts like declare it to be Wagnerian silver, with completely different material properties from the common metal. (This is how a lot of scientists get pulled into pseudoscience--they can't bear to give up on a cute but wrong theory.)



#44835: — 10/20  at  11:33 AM
Walt says:
So you see falling raindrops and just assume they came from...? Or, in the interest of "science," you make no assumptions, just come up with hypotheses to explain their presence rather than doing research to discover their origin? Then you mock those who do the actual research because it conflicts with your hypotheses?

Uh...Walt, what research?



#44837: — 10/20  at  11:54 AM
There was an intense amount of research put into Darwin's Black Box which illustrated complex, inter-dependent systems whose parts all rely on each other to complete a given task. Obviously, this raises issues with how complex systems could have evolved in what can only be considered giant leaps rather than in the "small steps," we are usually led to believe.



#44842: charlie wagner — 10/20  at  12:18 PM
Llelldorin wrote:

" Charlie, if you seriously think there could be other explanations for the CMB, come up with one and make it rigorous."



The CMB was predicted long before the Big Bang theory was formulated and long before George Gamow used it as evidence for the Big Bang.
As long ago as 1896, estimates were made of the temperature of space by Charles Guillaume who placed it around 5 K and attributed it to the stars in our galaxy. Sir Arthur Eddington wrote in 1926 that this temperature, which he predicted to be around 3 K was the result of the background radiation from all the heat sources in the universe. In 1933, Erhard Regener predicted a value near 3 k also.
When Gamow finally made his predictions, they were much higher, starting at 5 K and going as high as 50 K.
Space is not an empty void, but is filled with stars, galaxies, nebulae, interstellar dust and gas. All of this matter routinely absorbs and emits blackbody radiation. This could explain the CMB. This blackbody radiation could be emitted by discrete objects which then becomes smooth by scattering and diffusion in space. The radiation which many scientists attribute to the remnants of the Big Bang is actually indistinguishable from the natural minimum temperature of cold matter in space.
The existence of the CMB does not require that a Big Bang occurred and the observed radiation may have nothing at all to do with any Big Bang. And while the Big Bang "predicts" the CMB, it makes no predictions or speculations about its thermal equilibrium.
Both Big Bang cosmology and neo-darwinism will be judged by future historians of science as major embarrassments that will take their place alongside ptolemic geocentrism and phlogiston theory in the dustbin of history.



#44844: — 10/20  at  12:23 PM
Walt, before defending Behe any further, I suggest that you visit this site:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/behe.html

Also visit today's entry in Pharyngula (Behe pwnage) to see what Behe considers "rigorous peer review"
I'll grant that you could call Behe's preparation for his book "research", but it's not scientific research.



#44858: — 10/20  at  01:36 PM

#44837: Walt — 10/20 at 11:54 AM
There was an intense amount of research put into Darwin's Black Box

Uh-huh. Are you talking about marketing research, perhaps?

Today's York Daily record

HARRISBURG — Surrounded by stacks of thick books and more than 50 peer-reviewed articles on the subject of the evolution of the immune system, Michael Behe, a leading intelligent-design expert, was asked repeatedly whether he thought scientists had produced written works on the subject.

Eric Rothschild, plaintiffs' attorney in the trial against the Dover Area School District, piled the material onto the witness stand in order to challenge the Lehigh University biochemist's statement in his 1996 book, "Darwin's Black Box," that the "scientific literature has no answers to the question of the origin of the immune system."

But Behe sat steadfast.

He remains unaware of any evidence of work done "in a detailed, rigorous fashion" detailing "how immune systems or their irreducibly complex components could have arisen through natural selection and random mutation," he said.
...

The man can't see the stacks of papers and books surrounding him, and you want us to believe that he has carried out actual research?

Meanwhile, here's a complete list of the "detailed, rigorous" research backing up Behe's irreducible complexity claims:
1) He really really really wants to believe.



Hey, everyone has their own concept of rigorous and detailed.



#44870: DA Etler — 10/20  at  03:02 PM
Well, as astrology falls within the perview of scientific theory I suppose Behe would support a statement endorsing the teaching of magi astrology in biology classes that discuss genetics.



's avatar #44885: — 10/20  at  06:28 PM
charlie,

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

Obviously wrong for _all_ truths.

Your logic, corrected and applied to your creationism would be: Some lies passes through three stages. First, it is accepted as being self-evident. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is ridiculed. We are currently at stage three, as you well know from these pages.

"The CMB does NOT support the Big Bang Theory any more than having a tail supports the conclusion that an animal is a dog."

Wrong. CMB tests not only Big Bang but also inflation through its fine structure fluctuations and so invalidates a Steady State universe, see for example http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni/uni_101inflation.html Big Bang is currently the one model which passes that and all other observational tests, see http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni/uni_101bbtest.html.

"The CMB was predicted long before the Big Bang theory was formulated and long before George Gamow used it as evidence for the Big Bang. ..."

You are discussing steady state predictions. They are not valid since they are not based on the observed expansion. Gamow made the first Big Bang prediction based on Big Bang primordial nucleosynthesis.

"When Gamow finally made his predictions, they were much higher, starting at 5 K and going as high as 50 K."

Wrong. Initially, George Gamow calculated that the CMB should appear as a black body radiating at 50K. He later revised the calculation and estimated the temperature of the CMB as about 5K.

"And while the Big Bang "predicts" the CMB, it makes no predictions or speculations about its thermal equilibrium."

We know that there is no equilibrium since the universe is observed to expand. The CMB blackbody spectra comes from the epoch where all matter was still ionized. Ultimately the CMB blackbody temperature will approach zero.

"A theory can make perfectly correct predictions, like the geocentric theory and it can have outstanding explanatory power, like phlogisten theory and yet be completely wrong."

It is precisely because theories like your creationism can predict anything that we demand falsifiability of the theory.

Phlogiston (sp) theory had outstanding bad explanatory power when put to the test. http://www.jimloy.com/physics/phlogstn.htm: "But, the experiments which, more and more, convinced chemists that phlogiston was incorrect, were quantitative experiments."

Incidentally, Priestley, who went against the common knowledge that phlogiston was long since falsified and so was a crackpot fellow to you, was a minister who dabbled in science: http://mooni.fccj.org/~ethall/phlogist/phlogist.htm.



#44886: — 10/20  at  06:43 PM
It's interesting that Behe goes about science exactly bass-ackwards. His approach is if it doesn't meet the standards of science, let's change the definition of science instead of discarding the hypothesis.

One thing I haven't seen in the discussions of ID is the engineering principle K.I.S.S. (keep it simple, stupid). One of Behe's contentions is that the complexity of blood coagulation "proves" intelligent design. Why would an intelligent designer make a process that could so easily fail?



's avatar #44889: — 10/20  at  07:20 PM
Do you mean that Behe should KISS his prominent ass? Or do you say that it should be called Stupid Design?

Hmm, that reminishes of prolifers who want to make away with safe protection and abortion methods and reduce public education on those lifesaving methods. They should rightly be called antilifers instead.



#44890: — 10/20  at  07:22 PM
I'm still waiting for a response to my earlier post. If the so-called Schopenhauer's Maxim is true, then that would mean that it applies to itself, as it deals with ALL truths. That would imply that Schopenhauer's Maxim must have been first ridiculed, then violently opposed, then accepted as self-evident. Anyone who then uses Schopenhauer's Maxim must then demonstrate these three things. The third point particularly is interesting: If S's Maxim is self-evident, then that means it must self-evidently be true that all truths went through the Schopenhauer process. But this is not self-evident at all, and if there is an evident truth that did not go through this process, then S's Maxim contradicts itself and can be ignored.



#44909: Todd Greene — 10/21  at  02:59 AM
After all, aren't the pyramids a good argument for AID (Advanced Intelligent Design), having been produced with the assistance of technologically advanced aliens from another start system? Hmmm... Maybe there's more to genuine science than Michael Behe and other ID advocates portray. No wonder they must redefine science in order to include their IDeology... as well as astrology! LOL

On ID being like the Big Bang: What's the difference between the scientific iconoclast and the crackpot? Simple: The iconoclast is actually doing some real scientific research. The Discovery Institute guys need to roll up their sleeves in the lab or in the field instead of playing politics and hiring lawyers.



#44995: Kagehi — 10/21  at  06:32 PM
Space is not an empty void, but is filled with stars, galaxies, nebulae, interstellar dust and gas. All of this matter routinely absorbs and emits blackbody radiation. This could explain the CMB.


Hmm. Forgive me if I am wrong, but this constant temperature takes into account such things as the amount of heat that is even 'possible' to scatter and exists 'even' in areas in between galaxies, dust clouds and the like, where one would 'expect' it to be far lower (if visible at all), if based 'only' on dispersion effects. For that matter, the only way to make the numbers coincide would be to do one of the following:

1. Make the universe *far* older than it is currently considered, which would defy the known expansion rate by a huge margin.

2. Allow for stars to emit *far* more energy, even a few billion years ago, than they do now, which would have made formation of planets like Mercury effectively impossible (too close to not burn up).

or 3. Increase the rate of expansion, thus how fast the energy dispered, by a value that would require the universe be going backwards to put things where they are 'now', which contradicts the evidence which instead suggests this rate may still actually be increasing.

But then, that is the point. You can't have a universe that is visibly expanding, with a nearly uniform IR level, and gaps in between the sources that span 42,000 light years between them (and that is the 'closest'). The numbers don't add up without violating one of the three above, or possible some other thing I simply don't know enough to include in the list. You might as well paint a wall black, stick metal stickers on it, hit it for a few hours with a heat lamp, then try to claim the therma reading from across the entire wall is 'radiating' from the metal dots, when physics clearly says that this is completely impossible, given the nature of the spots, the size of the wall and everything else you can determine from examining them.

Then again, that's your problem Charlie. You want someone to hand proof of, in my example, magical metal discs that radiate heat on their own. Of course, in that case you could... All you would have to do is make them out of a radioactive metal. You could sit there staring in wonder at your magic discs, until you died from the cancer they gave you. But then, you would be introducing something that *isn't* part of the original example, just like you want to interject something into the universe, for which no evidence exists, and which contradicts all evidence that 'has' been found, to make CMB into something that doesn't fit the Big Bang better than the other theories.

Though, actually. One theory I just read about is a sort of semi-study state universe. The theory goes that the universe expands and contracts, so instead of one Big Bang, you get lots of endless mini-bangs, with some indeterminate time in between, before the whole thing collapses into a near singularity and blows itself up again. This 'also' allows for CMB, but somehow I don't think this is the glorious 'immortal' universe that poor Charlie wants to believe in so badly.

Any priest or shaman must be presumed guilty until proved innocent - Robert A. Heinlein



#45288: — 10/24  at  09:35 PM
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer


So that would be evolution at the third stage then?



#47228: Tom Morris — 11/05  at  03:53 AM
Once this whole thing has died down, I reckon Mike Argento ought to release a book of the ID columns he's done so far for the York Daily Record. They are fantastic, and really show exactly what journalism should be about - exposing the bunk.



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