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Wednesday, April 06, 2005

Creationists lie about the T. Rex soft tissue data

You may recall the recent discovery of soft tissue in dinosaur bone…as you might expect, the creationists are crawling all over themselves to misinterpret it. This newspaper article, Creationists welcome fossil find , lists a few of the usual frauds and their responses:

Schweitzer made international news on March 24 when she unveiled what looks like soft tissue and remnants of blood cells and blood vessels in a T. rex leg bone found in Montana. Paleontologists said such remains could open a new research direction, maybe even dinosaur DNA studies, in their field.

One young-Earth group, Answers in Genesis, celebrates Schweitzer's Tyrannosaurus rex find with two articles on its Web site, several photos from her paper in the journal Science, and a promo that reads: "Breaking Dino News ... but will the evidence convince them?"

Speakers with the Institute for Creation in California will emphasize Schweitzer's findings in future talks they deliver to college campuses, community groups and churches.

"We think this is really very powerful evidence," said co-founder Duane Gish, a biochemist and 30-year creationism activist.

As early as 1997, Answers in Genesis circulated word of Schweitzer's previous find of possible blood cell remnants preserved in dinosaur bone, in its Creation Magazine. Again, the group presented her research as proof of the Earth's youth.

"It sounds preposterous -- to those who believe that these dinosaur remains are at least 65 million years old," wrote Australian Carl Wieland of Answers in Genesis International. "It is of course much less of a surprise to those who believe Genesis."

These guys are all spouting nonsense, of course. This find is not evidence by any stretch of the imagination for a young earth; the geology of the region where these fossils were found is very well characterized, and the specimens are unambiguously on the order of 70 million years old. These are not intact, unchanged cells; degradation and quite possibly some substantial kinds of chemical replacement have occurred. The real questions are about chemistry and conditions and the constitution of these tissue fragments. Throwing out most of the discipline of geology, as would be required if these rocks were 6000 years old, is not on the table.

Here's the bottom line:

Horner, Schweitzer's one-time teacher and a co-author of the Science paper, said frequent attention from creationists takes a toll on the Raleigh scientist, who is also a paleontology curator at the N.C. Museum of Natural Sciences.

"An argument with a creationist is virtually impossible," he said. "They pick and choose whatever piece of data they like. These people are just beating up on her."

Beating up on scientists is OK. We're supposed to be able to defend our work against hostile challenges. What creationists do is something different, though: they lie. They are pounding on Schweitzer with their mangled distortions of the evidence, and that's just not kosher.


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Comments:
#21149: — 04/06  at  10:57 AM
The response from AiG, et al, is, of course, no surprise. The hypocritical thing about it is that while they may trumpet the discovery of possible soft tissue as evidence that the fossil is younger than we may think (indeed, the older the fossil, the less likely the preservation of soft tissue, so the reasoning there isn't 100% insane -- scientists simply have other overwhelming evidence that the fossil is extremely old, and don't just latch on to one less than reliable indicator), they would never point out the odd fact that dinosaur remains are never (well, now almost never) found with preserved soft tissue, whereas other '6000 year old' fossils *are*. Why is that? I mean, if dinosaurs, mammoths, giant sloths, and so forth, are all creatures that lived around 6000 years ago, you'd expect to find fossils in similar states of preservation, at similar rates.

Creation 'scientists' cannot simultaneously be both 'not stunned' by the soft tissue discovery and unperplexed by the fact of the extreme rarity of such a discovery.



#21150: — 04/06  at  11:04 AM
What they want is Christian Science, which, of course, will work no better than Soviet Science or Aryan Science did.
(Almost) Unbelievable!



#21163: — 04/06  at  01:55 PM
Creationists lie.

Creationist are Christian.

One of those 'Thall shalt nots is about lying'

Creationists will go to hell, according to their rules.

Seems fair,.... if it were only true.



#21181: jmorrison — 04/06  at  04:39 PM
the creationist arguments and tactics are so irrational and visibly flawed that i don't even know if they can be accused of lying at this point so much as simply having a debilitating mental disorder.

i agree with bertrand russell's sentiment of religion: "i regard it as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race." with this in mind they are not so much lying as blinded by their own particular mental illness. (perhaps compounded by the endless inbreeding of folks with the same affliction?) symptoms seem to include boundless arrogance and a compulsive drive toward not only contradiction and hypocrisy but worldly power. you'd think the pharmaceutical juggernaut would have sunk a few of its bucks into some serious r&d and marketed some treatments by now!

my own arrogance is not without bounds so i'll stop talking.



#21182: — 04/06  at  04:44 PM
Anyone heard of any developments on the "paleocene dinosaurs" issue? All seems to have gone a bit quiet, not to say dead. Still, suppose there's a bit of a difference between 6 thousand years and, um, 60 million or so.

What's the ID slant on extinctions? Planned obsolescence I suppose. Figures.



#21183: — 04/06  at  05:02 PM
Incidentally, what I meant to add, but it's late here, are that the injunctions against lying are relating to specific circumstances rather than a blanket ban. See for example Exodus 20:16 and Leviticus 19:12. Most Christians would probably think that not lying is included in the good neighbour thing, but we've some very literal-minded people here.



#21190: — 04/06  at  05:55 PM
I would not have said 'hostile
challenges,' Professor.

Skeptical, cautious, etc.



#21195: — 04/06  at  07:46 PM
What I find interesting is the very end of the article. A proponent of ID is quoted. He thinks the young-earth creationists are wrong: "Deem wrote, 'Contrary to the claims of some young Earth creationists, the tissue is obviously not fresh.'"

Is there a battle-royale between young-earth creationists and IDers? Wouldn't ID be as blasphemous as evolutionary theory in the eyes of a young-earth Adam-and-Eve creationist? Yet to the casual bystander (me), the young-earthers seem happy to have ID out there. I guess the primary interest of young-earthers is to undercut evolutionary theory, but I don't see how they would otherwise tolerate ID.



#21197: Virge — 04/06  at  09:11 PM
That's right, Jim, hammer in the wedge between the old earthers and young earthers.



Trackback: newsobserver.com | Local & State Tracked on: white pebble (64.202.165.132) at 2005 04 06 12:03:53
newsobserver.com | Local & State "An argument with a creationist is virtually impossible," he said. "They pick and choose whatever piece of data they like." (via Pharyngula)...



#21200: — 04/06  at  10:41 PM
...I don't see how [the Young Earth Creationists] would otherwise tolerate ID.
Trust me... according to the YECs, both the IDers and the Evolutionists are going to burn in Hell.

But, I have a feeling that we're "destined" to be in a bit more agony (i.e. throughout Eternity) than a relatively benign alternately-flavored Fundie.

smile

Accordingly, I find the newly formed YEC/ID/Creationism "partnership" to be somewhat reminiscent of how a huge majority of the religious right are completely ignorant of the fact that much of the so-called "Liberal, baby-killing, secularists" are actually Persons of Faith (e.g. Kerry, Dean)...

...Persons of Faith, mind you, whom (IMHO) are doing a much better job at living his/her life as Jesus would expect from one of his followers.

Does anyone else see the connection?

Maybe I need some sleep...

Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

-Jerry Garcia



#21201: — 04/06  at  10:57 PM
Alas, I have seen the light!

It turns out that the YEC/ID relationship reminded me of both the Republican Party and the Religious Right, simply because every example of blatant hypocrisy and ignorance tends to now remind me of them, as these characteristics have sadly become the focal point of their philosophy new religion.

Okay, now I can sleep.

Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

-Jerry Garcia



#21420: Jonathan Bartlett — 04/09  at  11:50 AM
"These guys are all spouting nonsense, of course."

What, specifically, was nonsense?

"These are not intact, unchanged cells;"

There is NOONE claiming otherwise.

"Beating up on scientists is OK. We're supposed to be able to defend our work against hostile challenges. What creationists do is something different, though: they lie."

So where is the lie? You haven't pointed one out yet.

Of course, even assuming the geologic column is correct, fossils cannot tell us with any certainty even whether or not a species is extinct. The Coelacanth fish, for example, was thought to be extinct with the dinosaurs. That is, until they were found being sold live in Indonesian fish markets.



#21431: — 04/09  at  06:53 PM
Er, why would fossils tell us whether or not a species is extinct? I don't recall ever hearing a biologist claim that. Fossils tell us when/where a species was, not when/where it wasn't. Which is of course why creationist "missing link" arguments fail.

Anyway, I don't think we need to scrutinize the fossil record to establish that there probably aren't any T. rexes wandering around at the moment...



#21444: Jonathan Bartlett — 04/09  at  10:44 PM
" Anyway, I don't think we need to scrutinize the fossil record to establish that there probably aren't any T. rexes wandering around at the moment... "

1) I still don't see the lie

2) We don't know that the T-Rex fossil wasn't 6,000 years old, do we? Or maybe even more recent? Since we can't count on the fossil record to give extinction dates, what else are they based on?



#21446: — 04/09  at  11:16 PM
Jonathan Bartlett, One lie is claiming to know the source ofr life, when one is only guessing. Many professional IDers also continue to claim that they have no access to knowledge that has been provided to them many time.



#21550: — 04/11  at  10:37 AM
Evolution is a purely religious theory. It is not scientifiacally defendable, its a religion.



#21564: Jonathan Bartlett — 04/11  at  12:24 PM
Desert Donkey:

While I'm know that there are people who fit the mold you specify, I have seen it in equal weight from the other side. However, if you notice the title of this blog entry, it is that the creationists are lying about the soft tissue data. But still, I haven't had anyone point out the lie to me.



#21566: Jonathan Bartlett — 04/11  at  12:30 PM
I found one lie, or at least a half-truth. But it was from the evolutionists. Deem said:

"Contrary to the claims of some young Earth creationists, the tissue is obviously not fresh."

However, I have yet to find any young-earth creationist claiming that the tissue is fresh. They are merely pointing out that tissue in such condition is unlikely to be 65 million years old. And they are correct -- this is why people haven't been looking for soft tissue in dinosaur bones -- they assumed that it would be unlikely or impossible for soft tissue to survive 65 million years. So yes, there are lies. But in this case it does not appear to be the creationists making them.



's avatar #21570: PZ Myers — 04/11  at  01:07 PM
Here's a lie: "ANSWERS IN GENESIS says Schweitzer's find strengthens the view that the Earth is young". It does not.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#21573: Jonathan Bartlett — 04/11  at  01:18 PM
" Here's a lie: "ANSWERS IN GENESIS says Schweitzer's find strengthens the view that the Earth is young". It does not."

They said "strengthen" not "prove". And that is true. They did not say that it disproves evolution. They only said that it strengthens the case for a young earth.

Why do you think that finding soft tissue in bones supposed to be 65 million years old does not strengthen the case that perhaps the bones aren't 65 million years old? If we find that the bones that we used to think were 65 million years old were not so, that does add questions to the validity of other age assumptions.

Again, if you read what they actually said, instead of what you are trying to read into it, they are correct.



's avatar #21591: PZ Myers — 04/11  at  03:32 PM
I read exactly what they wrote. It is a lie. This discovery does not strengthen the case for a young earth. It's a 70 million year old fossil imbedded in 70 million year old rock; that is not in dispute. Any claim otherwise is at best based in rank ignorance, at worst in flagrant dishonesty.

Answers in Genesis has both.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#21593: Jonathan Bartlett — 04/11  at  03:46 PM
"It's a 70 million year old fossil imbedded in 70 million year old rock; that is not in dispute. Any claim otherwise is at best based in rank ignorance, at worst in flagrant dishonesty."

That makes a lot more sense. You are defining creationism as lying upfront. Therefore the strength of the argument does not matter, because if it is a young-earth creationist claim then it is already a lie.

I disagree, but at least it's self-consistent.



's avatar #21594: PZ Myers — 04/11  at  03:51 PM
No. I am saying that there is a very strong body of evidence that demonstrates that this specimen is 70 million years old. Finding extraordinarily well-preserved material inside a fossil does not challenge any of that evidence, and claiming that it does is a lie.

You're going to have to find evidence that the geological information about the rock this specimen was found in is false.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#21597: Jonathan Bartlett — 04/11  at  04:14 PM
"No. I am saying that there is a very strong body of evidence that demonstrates that this specimen is 70 million years old."

There's also a strong body of evidence that says that surface features of the earth can't exist more than 34 million years due to erosion. Both bodies of evidence exist, and whichever way you go, you have to invoke secondary hypotheses to cover the inconsistencies.

"You're going to have to find evidence that the geological information about the rock this specimen was found in is false."

The fossil is that evidence. Erosion rates are another.

"Finding extraordinarily well-preserved material inside a fossil does not challenge any of that evidence"

Yes it does. Again, you are missing the difference between prove and challenge. For example, if a clay pot was found, would it challenge the date of the rock? In that case, you would either have to challenge the date of the rock, the date of civilization, or come up with a secondary hypothesis about how such a pot could be embedded in such a rock.

Likewise, for soft tissue to be remaining, it is not likely to be 70 million years old. So, either our information about biological decay is wrong, the date for the rock and fossil are wrong, or there needs to be a secondary hypothesis invoked for the explanation of the data.

Out of curiosity, what kind of find, specifically, would strenghten (not necessarily prove) the view that the earth is young? Would finding supposed 70 million-year-old fossils with soft tissue not be at least a piece of that?



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