Pharyngula

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Saturday, September 17, 2005

Dance, Birdnow, dance!

Here's a little tactical tip for dealing with creationists. In their presentations, they lie and distort at a frantic pace, babbling out unsupported claims so quickly that you can't possibly keep up—it's far easier to puke up another lie than to carefully and accurately correct one. So what can you do? Focus on one. You can't correct an entire dictionary of dishonesty, but you can thoroughly discuss one entry.

Case in point: Timothy Birdnow. He wrote that appallingly bad essay on evolution at the American Thinker to which I gave an omnibus answer. However, I also zeroed in on one representative paragraph of his essay and challenged him to deal with the answers specifically.

I'm a right wicked bastard. Birdnow discussed revisiting this subject in another article, so I hit him with a challenge. Creationists typically dance from error to error, keeping the balls juggling so fast that you can't keep up, and definitely can never pin them down. So I picked one point in his article and told him to explain it. Here's my challenge:

By the way, if you do revisit this subject, please address this one point from your article.

Consider the Permian Triassic Extinction, the so called "Great Dying", 250 million years ago,in which 9 out of 10 marine creatures and 7 out of 10 land creatures died. Before the Great Dying five phylla walked the Earth; insects, mammals, birds, fish, and reptiles. After the Great Dying we had the same 5.

You should be aware that in those 3 sentences, you made 4 immense errors.

  1. There are many more than 5 phyla; about 30.
  2. Mammals, birds, fish, reptiles, and insects are not separate phyla. The first four all belong to one phylum (Chordata) and the last belongs to another (Arthropoda).
  3. There were no mammals or birds in the Permian.
  4. There were no mammals or birds in the Triassic.

In other words, your entire point was wrong in multiple ways. Those are simple errors of fact that show you have no knowledge at all of the subject about which you were babbling.

Consider this a challenge. If you can't address those gross errors when you revisit the subject, I'm going to point out the fact with great amusement.

I wonder what will happen? Dodge, weasel, stonewall, or do some kind of spastic flibbertigibbet dance?

He has replied (oh, wait—he's created a whole new blogspot weblog to deal with it*). And the winning answer is…spastic flibbertigibbet dance!

Professor Myers goes on to insult me in every way imaginable, showing himself to be not just closed-minded but also quite intolerant and nasty. He devoted an enormous amount of time to what he views as extraordinarily stupid-which proves that I touched a nerve. To paraphrase Shakespeare "Me thinks he doth protest too much!" He even used my name as the title of his post! Does anyone devote so much time and effort to something they think has no validity? Dr. Myers clearly fears what I had to say.

I can imagine quite a few other ways to insult Birdnow, I assure you. And I don't think that a guy who sets up a new weblog to address the criticisms of one of his articles can claim that others protest too much. The point of my original post, though, was to demonstrate the numerous errors of fact—basic, fundamental, gross mistakes—in his essay. His attempt to address the specific issues I brought up in my challenge is pathetic.

You are correct in that there are 30 total animal phyla; I was writing a piece to explain this concept to a general audience, and I included the chordates plus insects. You, as a revered Professor of Biology, may find my pique with my carelessness. Fine(after all, I`m not a biologist). Nonetheless, it does not matter to the argument wether there are 2, 8, 15, 30, or 2000 phila (ouch! my knuckles!); the point is that we there was no real crossovers between creatures. I suspect you understood my point, but quibble over it because you think you`ve got me. If it salves your ego to gloat, go right ahead! The fact is, the great point you think you scored was wide of the argument.

Remarkable.

It is not more difficult to use the number "30" instead of "5" for a general audience, unless perhaps he thought the readership of the American Thinker was so benightedly stupid that they were unable to count above 5.

He still doesn't seem to have grasped what a phylum is. None of the examples he listed are phyla; they are classes. As written, he was saying that there were mammals in the Permian, and there were mammals in the Triassic after the Permian extinction. That claim is false.

It does matter how many phyla he claims existed and now exist. It's a matter of credibility. It's extremely easy to look up the number of phyla, and definitions of phyla, and examples of phyla—he did not, and still hasn't, and doesn't know the meaning of the word. He lacks the basic concepts (not to speak of any integrity), and is not a competent or reliable source.

The point I made was central to his argument. He's trying to claim that there were no changes in the kinds of fauna present in the fossil record over time, and has misrepresented the record to support his assertion. Try as you might, you will find no evidence of birds or mammals before, during, or shortly after the Permian extinction. Fish, reptiles, and insects straddled the event, but there are differences in each; the oldest known fly, for instance, is from the upper Triassic.

I could go on to tackle his new lies, but as you can see, all he will do in response is trot out more, a process that could go on forever. Let's leave it with one incontrovertible fact which Birdnow wishes would go away: his argument about the Permian extinction was completely wrong and based entirely on obtuse arrogance and an utter lack of actual information. He's a pretentious liar and fraud.

We can also be content now with the results of a Google search for Timothy Birdnow.


*His excuse for setting up the new weblog is a wonderful recognition of my puissance: "PZ Myers' desperate attack on my American Thinker article The Case Against Darwin has destabilized my blog's formatting." My blog fu is most effective. Fear me.


Trackback url: http://pharyngula.org/index/trackback/2946/K6s6lAQK/

Comments:
#40489: — 09/18  at  01:04 AM
#40469:
Well, what else would you expect from someone with a nick "StaticMind", coturnix?



#40492: — 09/18  at  04:07 AM
Let me just add some thoughts on the subject of tolerance. Tolerance, in the sense of refraining from lynching your neighbors for failing to attend your church, or sending thugs to beat them up for looking at a woman that you have decided is part of your "race", is a fine thing.

The problem is, that "tolerance" itself has had its meaning corrupted in the last few decades to mean "refraining from any kind of critical judgment at all". This is what lets all manner of loonies, from astrologits to scientologits to creationists to holocaust deniers, demand to be treated as if they were proposing rational arguments.

When the IDiots propose to sneak their religious indoctrination into science classes to proselytize to everyone's kids, they must be rigorously exposed for what they are. Oh, if only Henry Louis Mencken were still around.

-jcr



#40495: — 09/18  at  05:19 AM
coturnix, the opposite appears to be true according to this paper:

Kruger, Justin; Dunning, David: Unskilled and unaware of it: How difficulties in recognizing one's own incompetence lead to inflated self-assessments. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, December 1999 Vol. 77, No. 6, 1121-1134

Full text at: http://www.phule.net/mirrors/unskilled-and-unaware.html

Psychology is not my field of expertise, so I don't know what other articles have to say, but it is interesting reading if true.



#40497: — 09/18  at  06:29 AM
Perhaps I am a bit obtuse, but I was not able to find a way to respond to Birdnow's blog in a direct fashion, so...

Dear Mr. Birdnow,

As a layman to a layman, if you want to try to refute a theory on its own turf, you first need to know the theory itself, not just the bunk produced by the Discovery Institute and its minions. Then you really do need to get your facts right. Facts are used to give credibility to a thesis, otherwise you are just making a bunch of assertions. False "facts" only serve to discredit the author. It is only natural to lose focus on an argument whene it has no underlying factual basis. Without facts the argument isn't worth the fertizer put down by my dachsund.

Think about it, Mr. Birdnow: how many times do you say to the TV, "yeah, right (sarcastically)" when you hear some tidbit that has no factual basis. If there is no reason to believe an assertion we, as rational beings, do not. That is why Colin Powell stood up with a piece of paper saying that we had proof of the threat posed by saddam hussein. That paper was his "proof", ie, "factual basis" for the administration's position. It would appear now that that paper was actually blank ;)

As a final note, an interesting side effect of knowing the theory: you will find that it works very well. Try reading Ernst Mayr and Stephen Jay Gould. You will want to pick up couple of biology texts from your local (secular) college bookstore (or St. Louis U)including one for the intro year and genetics.



#40498: — 09/18  at  07:49 AM
I think it's interesting that the Birdnovian response has been based so much on emotion - focus on the hurt to Mr B's feelings rather than the damage to his case; approval for his original piece based on its "message" (i.e. its appeal to pre-existing feelings) rather than on the "scientific gobbledygook" which one of his commenters happily admitted went straight over his head. Interesting because creationists often seem to identify "Darwinism" with the left wing, which the right wing likes to depict as "girlymen" privileging emotion over rationality.



#40499: Orac — 09/18  at  08:18 AM
Heh. This Birdnow guy is even more of a loon than I had thought the first time around.

Poor guy. He doesn't realize what a fool he is making of himself, but instead sees himself as some sort of brave warrior against the "evil" of "Darwinism."

Let him continue to dance.

--
Orac “A statement of fact cannot be insolent.”
http://oracknows.blogspot.com



#40500: Arun — 09/18  at  08:20 AM
This reminds me of another nutcase, who concluded, in effect, "that even though I'm wrong about the facts, my argument still holds".



#40502: coturnix — 09/18  at  08:46 AM
Magnu: that paper just strengthens the case, doesn' it? Less you know about something, less you understand how little you know.



's avatar #40503: — 09/18  at  08:53 AM
Magnus,

I don't have time to read that paper, but the title/abstract reminded me of a somewhat sarcastic comment I tell my students, especially the arrogant ones and the ones who think their professor is supposed to have all the answers:

Education is exposure to the vast universe of knowledge. The higher your level education, the more you realize how much you don't know.

After I finished my dissertation, I added the followup (usually mumbled under my breath):

And once you fully understand how much of an idiot you are, you earn a Ph.D.



Trackback: thinking caps off Tracked on: decorabilia (72.9.234.70) at 2005 09 18 09:12:25
PZ's smackdown of a hapless, self-described Thinker was funny and sad the first time, and even funnier and sadder the second....



#40507: — 09/18  at  09:34 AM
Stacy: I just found out my mother is a young earth creationist.

My sympathies.

You might want to check on her media diet: a mental deterioration like that seems unlikely to have occurred spontaneously, but is probably being fed by some televangelist or other mind parasite who may be spreading other mental infections as well. Few effective treatments are known, but perhaps she can be redirected to a less virulent form of this disorder.



#40508: — 09/18  at  09:45 AM
"Name calling is the last refuge of the loser of an argument..."

I can help but notice that his responses to PZ are littered with both this sort of irrelevant posturing and numerous references to PZ's own alleged character flaws (e.g., calling him a "petty, mean-spirited little man). First time I've seen that sort of hypocrisy from a right-wing nutbag...oh, wait! Actually that's all they do!

I submit that by this time this "strategy" (incessant whining about well-earned smackdowns) qualifies as an official creationist canard even though it's divorced from science.

It's convenient -- heck, vital -- to resort to nonsense such as "Why would Darwinists get so upset if they were really sure of themselves?" This is summarily debunked with an example: If I insisted someone's mother was a whore, could I take his repudiation of same as evidence that it must be true? Better yet, why do creationists and fundies go to such lengths to vocally defend the good name of an all-powerful deity?

The Birdman has earned the label of buffoon in this extended exchange because it is clear scientific illiteracy is so far-flung and toxic that he literally have no idea what people like PZ are talking about when asking you questions. He lacks the background to recognize it is that he doesn't know. He's able to pick out the personal criticisms, though; good for him.

People expect to be taken seriously merely because they are passionate in their galactic ignorance. Birdman's original screed -- which, by the way, was very much the type of ad hominem attack he purports to condemn, this one leveled at all of "Darwinism" rather than a meandering twit with the writing acumen of a glue-addicted fifth-grader -- was riddled with more technical errors than one would expect of someone who was actually aiming for a maximal mistake-to-word ratio.

He hates hearing it, but facts can be rough: Birdman is desperately wrong, far out of his league in every conceivable way, and, absent dedicated study of the subjects he has addressed, badly misguided in even approaching evolution or biology in general.

Simply put, he launched an attack rooted not a whit in sound science and one hundred percent in dogmatic garbage and were thoroughly marauded by the opposition. This is how it usually works, and it's fun to watch.

Immunity to facts must be a painful thing to endure.



#40513: — 09/18  at  10:40 AM
The shorter Timothy Birdnow:

"You fools! You've discredited every argument in my article. But you can't touch my conclusions! I can just restate them!"



#40516: — 09/18  at  11:17 AM
Birdnow wrote:
"Does anyone devote so much time and effort to something they think has no validity?"

Since Birdnow apparently devotes a great deal of time and effort to "Darwinism" -- which he believes has no validity -- then his answer to his own question must obviously be "yes."



#40529: — 09/18  at  01:33 PM
From Mr. Birdnow's comment section (new persecution blog):

Dr. Meyers was so fixated on the scientific inaccuracies he couldn’t or wouldn’t hear anything that the piece was trying to say.

Yes, I'm afraid that this does show the shortcomings of the rational and scientifically educated person - being stopped short by the "scientific inaccuracies" used to support an argument. Why couldn't we just see what was being said...or trying to be said...or something?

Just because all of the supporting evidence offered was completely wrong and the rest was stongly suspect and it was offered by someone with no knowledge of or training in science or biology we automatically (knee-jerk) dismissed the conclusions and focused instead on providing refutation of the incorrect evidence. When all along the conclusion was obviously correct (this style of argument is so brilliant and clever that I almost missed it).

Between the lines, Mr. Birdnow was obviously expressing a powerful and moving gut instinct that has great appeal to many other people's gut understanding of complex issues. And, lord knows, we have more than enough evidence these days to highlight that leading by divining the rumblings of one's gut can bring about much change and wonderment leading to very interesting times. And, what more can we ask for than to live in interesting times? You know, like the Darks Ages - very, very interesting times.

Ultimately, I have been convinced by Mr. Birdnow's bold, forceful and completely unsubstantiated stance that evolution, and science in general, have no real foundations - after all, I don't want to be made fun of as authoritarian or prejudiced or as an elitist evidence demander. I don't want to be a Jihadi for Evolution or a poopie head. So I say Dr. Meyers, shame on you. I hope that you have been sufficiently chastened and will now renounce your misguided empirical, fact-based biased ways. I mean really, what are you going to believe? Your own eyes, training and reason or someone else's unsupported yet sincere, deep, and long-held gastric intuitions....uh, I mean convictions.



#40541: — 09/18  at  05:34 PM
Careful, now, Birdnow's calling in the big guns...


I`m being assaulted by PZ Myers and his Panda`s Middle Finger minions at my website. It`s vicious, and I would appreciate any help anyone could give me.


http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/339#more-339

Of course, if Demski's flock had particular interest in open debate, they might not be hanging around UD...



#40557: — 09/18  at  08:03 PM
I think Mr. Birdnow's belief is that since Evolution is wrong, one doesn't have to know anything about it to refute it. I mean, after all, Jesus 'wants him to win'...

Besides, he probably steers clear of learning too much about Evolution or Biology for fear of being 'corrupted' by it.



#40562: BC Waterboy — 09/18  at  09:03 PM
Mr. Birdnow's jumbling of the facts on evolution is really no different than the rampant bastardization of the christian faith that has worsened over the last 25 years. The big divide amongst the faithful has pitted the new vs the old testament and the old testament believers are the ones who are taking the bible as literal truth, (forgetting that it is full of contadictions, sexism, racism and incitement to violence, murder and slavery, long since controlled by law and order). So it is really no surprise to me that facts don't matter in the arguements put forth. Who needs facts anyway, they just get in the way of good old fashioned religous brainwashing.



#40570: — 09/18  at  10:16 PM
This post is pretty amusing to see in the pirate mode.
The ornery cuss wrote that appallingly bad essay on evolution at th' American Thinker t' which I gave an omnibus answer. However, I also zeroed in on one representative paragraph o' his essay and challenged that scurvey dog t' deal with th' answers specifically.


Seems like a decent way to refer to Birdnow



's avatar #40597: moioci — 09/19  at  08:14 AM
Yeeeaaaaaaarrrrrrrrgh!
Oops, that be Dean mode, not piratical mode!
As a public servvice, I have here catalogued the varieties of ignorance exhibited by Birdnow:\

orthography -- I was going to give him a pass on this one, as it's 'definately' a dying art, but when you use technical terms to make your arrrrrgument, you gotta get it right, else ye look like a simpleton.

diction -- it's a mute point anyway, he said facetiously (note all the vowels in order there).

syntax -- it's own explanation.

physics -- atomic theory disproves evilution, arrrrgh!

biochemistry -- my cousin is not a part of me, and RNA is not a component of DNA.

argument -- facts be damned, I'm right anyway!

American lit. -- if you're going to misuse a quote from Emerson, at least get it right, hobgoblin.

thermodynamics -- his brain is a closed system.

punctuation -- why use a humble apostrophe ' when the acute ` is available? And quotation marks "" are so pedestrian, why not use 2 acutes ````?

biology, evolutionary theory -- goes without saying.

Any more?



#40659: — 09/19  at  04:21 PM
Similar to an "attempt" to draw out another of these thinkers.
http://joustthefacts.typepad.com/joust_the_facts/2005/08/lileks_takes_on.html



#40661: coturnix — 09/19  at  04:59 PM
Yikes - that's a bad one!



#40687: Arne Langsetmo — 09/19  at  08:20 PM
It's 9 of 10 marine and 7 of 10 land species, not "creatures" (i.e., individuals), that vanished in the "Great Dying." Not germaine to his "arguments" but just another indication that he doesn't know wtf he's talking about. As if more proof were needed.

Not "species". "Kinds". "Species" is Darwino-commie agitprop terminology to hide the insidious atheo-materialistic core of this malignant and pernicious doctrine. HTH. wink

Cheers,



#40699: Lowk — 09/20  at  12:47 AM
I just think it's wonderful that he managed to spell "phyla" three different ways (phylla phyla phila).



#40703: — 09/20  at  06:59 AM
He wins both ways. If people point out the errors, it isbecause he has hit a nerve, if they don't, it is because what he is saying is inarguable. If only everything in life was that simple



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