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Thursday, July 28, 2005

Dembski vs. Evo Devo

Echoed on the Panda's Thumb

William Dembski exemplifies the empty void of Intelligent Design creationism in his criticisms of Michael Ruse's review of Sean Carroll's Endless Forms Most Beautiful: The New Science of Evo Devo and the Making of the Animal Kingdom. Ruse's review was positive (as was mine—it's an excellent introduction to the discipline), but he takes a jab at the creationists at the beginning:

A major problem with the critics of science is that they have a problem with problems.

Let me be a little less cryptic. The critics—notably the creationists, and more recently their smoother descendents, the intelligent design theorists—are always whining that science has unfinished or unsolved problems.

This did not sit well with Dembski, who goes on to write a complaint that demonstrates that Ruse was exactly right in every particular, and also demonstrates several other creationist traits, such as an inability to read with understanding and quote mining.

In his review of Endless Forms Most Beautiful, Sean Carroll’s new book on evo devo, Michael Ruse faults intelligent design (ID) for harping on evolution’s unsolved problems. Moreover, Carroll as well as Ruse suggest that evo devo has now resolved one of the major problems on which design theorists have been harping.

Go ahead—read Ruse's review or Carroll's book. There is no blanket claim of a complete solution of anything, and Dembski is making stuff up. Instead, you will find that what we've got is a productive strategy for addressing evolutionary problems.

Wrong on both counts. Intelligent design does not have a problem with problems. It has a problem with bogus solutions that Darwinists like Ruse and Carroll dress up as real solutions to the problems of biological origins.

Note that while he's claiming he doesn't have a problem with problems, there is one figure in the article of developing squid (and truth be told, that tease was the only reason I read Dembski's article) with the question, "Can evo devo explain squid evolution?". To my disappointment, that's all he says about it—he raises the question, as if that is enough to indict evo-devo, and he certainly does not offer a research program of any kind.

The answer to the question, of course, is yes. Evo devo is not a collection of answers, but a set of approaches and principles that help us tackle difficult problems like the evolution of squid. It says that if we want to understand how organisms evolve, we need to understand the mechanisms by which genetic information is translated into form and function…the process of development. It's awfully hard to disagree with that, but Dembski tries. Or rather, he seems to think that bringing up unsolved problems in squid evolution is enough to show that evo devo has failed.

Look, if we want to understand how modern animals evolved from older forms, we should try to understand:

  • How genes produces morphology.
  • The genetics underlying large scale differences in form, between squid and fruit flies, for instance.
  • The mechanisms that generate striking morphological differences between closely related species, as we see in African cichlids.
  • The genetic basis of morphological variation within populations.

Evo devo does not declare that it has all the answers, it proudly announces that it has the right questions and a good toolkit to address them. Those are all questions that scientists are trying to answer, too; the Intelligent Design creationists don't even bother to ask interesting questions. Generalize his tantalizing opening question to "How can we explain squid evolution?". I can say how scientists would work to explain it. Dembski thinks just asking the question ends the search and does not bother to offer an Intelligent Design creationist's research strategy.

Where Dembski is at his most contemptible, though, is when he mangles the scientific literature to get an answer he wants. Here's an example of creationist quote mining:

But that raises a fundamental problem. Elizabeth Pennisi, in a report about evo devo for the journal Science, dated Nov. 1, 2002, stated the problem this way: “The lists [of conserved genes give] no insight into how, in the end, organisms with the same genes came to be so different.”

Wow. That sure sounds like an admission of failure. Those scientists must be stymied.

It's a grossly misleading excerpt, however. This was taken from a report explaining how developmental biologists were excited about the promise of new strategies in evo devo, and listed several examples of successes. All you have to do is read on a few sentences further to see the way the work is going.

The lists gave no insight into how, in the end, organisms with the same genes came to be so different. And given the evolutionary distance between, say, a fruit fly and a shark, "there isn't really an experimental manipulation to let you get at what the genes are actually doing," says Rudolf Raff, an evolutionary developmental biologist at Indiana University, Bloomington (IUB).

The solution, say Jeffery and others, is to focus on genetically based developmental differences between closely related species, or even among individuals of the same species. This is the stuff of microevolutionists, who care most about how individuals vary naturally within a population and how environmental forces affect this variation.

Uh, what's that? They aren't arguing that there is no insight at all, but merely that by working on smaller differences in more closely related species, they have a better handle on how to attack the problem? Hmmm. Further, the next page of the article summarizes recent dramatic successes with this approach, such as in understanding the evolution of cavefish eyes, the nematode vulva, and butterfly eyespots, where examination of differences between closely related species has enabled us to track exactly how genetic changes have led to the differences in form.

Dembski doesn't understand how science in general works, and even after consulting his incompetent colleague, Jonathan Wells, he definitely doesn't understand developmental biology. This passage is painful in its ignorance.

To sum up, developmental geneticists have found that the genes that seem to be most important in development are remarkably similar in many different types of animals, from worms to fruit flies to mammals.

Initially, this was regarded as evidence for genetic programs controlling development. But biologists are now realizing that it actually constitutes a paradox: if genes control development, why do similar genes produce such different animals? Why does a caterpillar turn into a butterfly instead of a barracuda?

This phrase, "biologists are now realizing that it actually constitutes a paradox", is simply false. There is no paradox at all there, and it doesn't trouble us at all. If you observed surveyors at work, and noticed that they marked off two plots of land of identical size, surveyed with similar instruments, and staked out with the same tools, and then bulldozers and carpenters and bricklayers and plumbers and electricians show up at both, but then later discovered that a gas station and convenience store was built on one, while a three-bedroom ranch house was built on the other, would you announce that there was a paradox here? Of course not. You're not an idiot.

What developmental geneticists have discovered is that different organisms use remarkably similar toolkits to assemble their form, and that what matters is how those tools are deployed during development. It's the patterns of regulation and interaction between those genes, which do differ in interesting ways, is what generates differences between species. And that's why Sean Carroll can legitimately argue that evo devo is a worthwhile focus for research.


Trackback url: http://pharyngula.org/index/trackback/2646/Waq8FyF0/

Comments:
#33085: — 07/28  at  01:38 PM
"Science & Theology News"?

ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww...



#33086: — 07/28  at  01:42 PM
I don't strictly blame Dembski for not understanding Evo-Devo. I'm about halfway through "Endless Forms" and I am finding it very tough sledding. Carrol has done everything possible, I'm sure, to make the material interesting and accessible, but it is difficult material that really requires some specialized understanding. The mistake--THIS mistake--that Dembski made was in trying to comment on something he knows nothing about.

And by the way, who reviews a review? Bad enough that they can't original papers published in peer reviewed journals, but they can't even criticize original documents--they have to crticize the critique? I'm starting to think that they're maybe a shady outfit or something.



#33087: — 07/28  at  02:04 PM
"...but then later discovered that a gas station and convenience store was built on one, while a three-bedroom ranch house was built on the other, would you announce that there was a paradox here? Of course not."


I would, however, question the wisdom of the zoning board.



#33088: — 07/28  at  02:34 PM
So science has "evo-devo" and ID has Behe's "poof!"--which of these might have medical applications?



#33090: Paul A. Nelson — 07/28  at  02:39 PM
PZ accuses Bill Dembski of making a false statement about the existence of a "hox paradox." This term, however, is quite widespread in the literature of evolutionary developmental biology, where the puzzle (which the term describes) has elicited much commentary.

Google "hox paradox" and follow up some of the links.



's avatar #33094: PZ Myers — 07/28  at  03:01 PM
Yes, Paul, and if you actually read the articles that you can find when searching for the "hox paradox" in the scientific literature, you'll find that typically what is said is, "hey, there's this idea called the 'hox paradox', but it actually isn't paradoxical at all", and you definitely won't find them suggesting that this is a serious problem for evolution.

Wagner et al. answer it quite simply in this way in PNAS:
It is now widely accepted that the divergent body plans are based more, but not exclusively, on differences in the regulation of a conserved set of genes rather than different gene complements.


Victoria Prince out your way at the U Chicago has a very nice article on the subject, which uses the 'paradox' as a springboard to discuss differences in the Hox genes and their pattern of regulation as an evolutionary explanation.

I would hope you wouldn't try to claim that Sean Carrol sees Hox genes as an obstacle to our understanding of evolution. You've read his book, and he's asserting something entirely contrary to that.

Do you guys search the scientific literature for words like "paradox", "problem", and "controversy" just so you can pluck them out of context and invent imaginary hurdles for evolution to jump?

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#33095: Dennis — 07/28  at  03:03 PM
Just because someone calls something a paradox doesn't necessarily make it so, which is, I think, the point that PZ was trying to make. Dembski, however, doesn't seem to grasp that concept.

In any case, the original Hox paradox is probably best posited as a question: "How can bodies as different as those of an insect and a mammal be patterned by the same developmental regulatory genes?" (Gregory A. Wray, Science, Vol 292, Issue 5525, 2256-2257 , 22 June 2001) That question has essentially been answered, therefore, it's not a paradox. (The genes set up basic patterning, and not direct specification; also, the genes can be differentially regulated at the transcriptional level in different species, thereby co-opting basic tools for different purposes, etc.)

P.S. I like the fact that all the CAPTCHA words appear to be related to biology. "Clade" was mine.



#33096: — 07/28  at  03:09 PM
Heh heh. "...zoning board."
Why didn't I think of that.



#33097: — 07/28  at  03:15 PM
It's important to note, Dembski makes a bigger mistake than usual. Forget about evolution, he seems to be denying that genes control development at all.
Initially, this was regarded as evidence for genetic programs controlling development. But biologists are now realizing that it actually constitutes a paradox: if genes control development, why do similar genes produce such different animals?
That's not a criticism of evolution; that's a criticism of genetics itself, or chemistry, or maybe causality. "If genes control development ..."?!? What does Dembski think controls development? Just epigenetics? The luminiferous ether? God's will? He is clearly not convinced it is in the genes. That, by itself, is a more sweeping anti-science statement than the usual misdirections about kinds, information, and complexity. Those are details about our understanding of the past; denying development denies our understanding of the simple, repeatable, controllable experiments that go on in our labs.

He seems to want to use this as a general anti-scientist hammer, a shorthand for "Scientists aren't qualified to think about evolution; look what fools they are on development!". But he's nailed himself into a corner: either a) he actually thinks that the genome may not control development, or that this is an open question; b) he doesn't know that much biology; or c) he knows perfectly well that genes guide development, and obscured that fact manipulatively.



's avatar #33099: DouglasG — 07/28  at  03:28 PM
Zoning board? Who wouldn't want a convenience store and gas station right in your own back yard? Need to gas up the lawnmower? Right there! Need a snickers? Right there too! When can I move in?

Douglas E. Gogerty
-----
“No, I’m from Iowa. I just work in outer space.”
-James T. Kirk



Trackback: Dembski makes a fool of himself, again Tracked on: Philosophy of Biology (66.151.149.25) at 2005 07 28 15:46:31
P.Z. Myers takes William Debmski to task for his typically dishonest and erroneous reply to Michael Ruse's latest book review. Here's my favorite excerpt:Dembski doesn't understand how science in general works, and even after consulting his incompetent colleague, Jonathan Wells,



#33100: arensb — 07/28  at  04:14 PM
In his review, Dembski writes:
What if, for instance, a gene that controls development could somehow induce a change early in development? Even a small change early in development might have huge consequences for the organism’s anatomy and physiology. Think of an arrow aimed accurately at a target. Left to fly unperturbed, the arrow will land in the target’s bull’s-eye. Yet the earlier in flight that the arrow is diverted from its trajectory, the wider it will be off the mark when it lands.

What is it with Dembski and arrows? Does he have some sort of archer fetish? (And who says the arrow was aimed accurately to begin with?)



#33101: Ricardo Azevedo — 07/28  at  04:22 PM
I don't know whether to laugh or cry, my usual mental state after reading PZ’s account of the latest creationism/ID outrage.

I can just imagine Dembski's intellectual forebears decrying the "bogus solutions" of early microbiologists (Pasteur, Koch, etc): 'these things you call germs are all very well but they don't explain everything', I hear them say, 'just look at all those diseases for which no agent has been found!'

What Dembski is saying about evo-devo is just as stupid and short sighted. Of course evo-devo doesn't have all the solutions. Indeed, as Ruse points out, that is the hallmark of a lively, productive area of science... But to dismiss the real achievements of Carroll and others (including the beautiful squid work by my former colleague from which Dembski gratuitously borrowed his illustration: Lee et al. 2003, Nature 424, 1061-1065) as "bogus solutions" when all you, and your colleagues, have ever done is rehash philosophical arguments defeated in the nineteeth century, selectively quote secondary sources, dream up analogies and obfuscate the issues, is simply too much.



#33105: pough — 07/28  at  05:29 PM
The paradox of the hox paradox. Google for hox paradox and you'll find many articles about the hox paradox. They state that there is no hox paradox. But does the article that states there is no hox paradox constitute proof that there is a hox paradox? It's the paradox of the hox paradox.

"For the snark was a boojum, you see!"


I think I'm going to make a web page that simply states: "There is no hox paradox." Then people can Google it and say, "See? There is a hox paradox! There's glory for you!"

Seriously, reading about these ID folks is like reading Lewis Carrol. Tell me this doesn't sound eerily familiar:


`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

`The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master -- that's all.'

Alice was too much puzzled to say anything; so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. `They've a temper, some of them -- particularly verbs: they're the proudest -- adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs -- however, I can manage the whole lot of them! Impenetrability! That's what I say!'



#33108: — 07/28  at  05:51 PM
It looks like Instapundit needs to read about Evo Devo too. It would answer many of his questions at http://www.instapunk.com/#IP585



#33110: InstaPunk — 07/28  at  07:08 PM
You really should offer InstaPundit an apology. He is NOT InstaPunk. I am. And I'm sure he's an obedient disciple of contemporary evolutionary theory. But about me, just t be clear, I abhor creationism, I dismiss Intelligent Design as Creationism under another name, and I do believe that evolutionary theory as it is taught and viciously defended is a religion, not a 21st century science. If you have science beyond theirs, I am more than willing to learn. Until then I'm happy to be an amateur critic.



#33112: — 07/28  at  07:17 PM
Past & future e-mail, media, 'net history of "hox paradox"...

Date: 6/23/02
From: Developmental Biologist Jonathan Wells
To: Philosopher of Developmental Biology Paul Nelson
"...see the article refering to the hox paradox?..."

From: Paul Nelson
To: Isaac Newton of Information Theory William Dembski
"...hox paradox!..."

From: William Dembski
To: Renewer of Science and Culture Jonathan Witt, DI
"...well-known hox paradox!..."

From: Jonathan Witt
To: Master and Commander Bruce Chapman, DI Head
"... damningly powerful hox paradox!..."

From: Bruce Chapman
To: Former Funder George Gilder
"... covered-up, devastating hox paradox!..."

Transcript: Lee Strobel's TV Show "Faith Under Fire"
"George Gilder: ...like the hox paradox which completely devastates..."

Answers in Genesis website: Article by J. Safarti
"...massive fraud involving the long known hox paradox..."

Kansas science standards testimony:
"John Calvert, IDNetwork: ...teach the controversy regarding the hox paradox!..."

Talk.origins "Six Nix Hox Paradox" FAQ, Jan. 2006:
"...
4. Resolving the Hox Paradox,” Science, Vol. 292, Issue 5525, 2256–2257, June 22, 2001
5. Hox cluster duplications and the opportunity for evolutionary novelties,” PNAS 100(25):14603–14606, December 9, 2003
..."



#33113: — 07/28  at  07:26 PM
Off-topic:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/oukoe_odd_canada_sasquatch;_ylt=Asy3HVorqaBZa03j9E92bnys0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3ODdxdHBhBHNlYwM5NjQ-

"DNA tests squelch Canadian sasquatch discovery
...
Researchers said on Thursday that a mysterious clump of hair found in the Yukon Territory is from a North American bison and not from he elusive ape-like sasquatch, or Big Foot, said to haunt the woods of western Canada.
...
Coltman has since turned down a request from a Wisconsin woman to analyze fur from a wolf/man hybrid creature spotted frequently in the badger state.
"



Trackback: Rhymes for the ID Nursery Tracked on: PhaWRONGula (72.9.234.70) at 2005 07 28 19:40:18
Old Mother William Wrote many a "trillion" To fetch her dogma a meal...



#33116: — 07/28  at  08:33 PM
I wonder why these "amateur critics" like InstaPunk are not curious enough about what they criticize to actually learn anything about it (which means either they don't know how to use Google or they're as lazy as they are egotistical). For example, our friend Insta is puzzled by the rapid, yet conservative (specialized dog breeds gone wild revert over not too many generations to a "generic" morphology) morphological changes that have occurred in developing different breeds of dogs. Well looky here, that very question has recently been investigated at the molecular level. It turns out many changes are mediated by tandem-repeat regions in regulatory elements; this is very significant to Punkie's question because tandem repeats can expand and contract rapidly in evolutionary time (I make my living off that phenomenon, in forensic DNA testing using what we forensic types call short tandem repeat (STR) loci and "real" geneticists call microsatellites). Here ya go, Mr. Amateur Critic:

Molecular origins of rapid and continuous morphological evolution

John W. Fondon, III * and Harold R. Garner

Eugene McDermott Center for Human Growth and Development and Department of Biochemistry, University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center, Dallas, TX 75390-8591

Communicated by Marc W. Kirschner, Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA, November 2, 2004 (received for review August 30, 2004)

Mutations in cis-regulatory sequences have been implicated as being the predominant source of variation in morphological evolution. We offer a hypothesis that gene-associated tandem repeat expansions and contractions are a major source of phenotypic variation in evolution. Here, we describe a comparative genomic study of repetitive elements in developmental genes of 92 breeds of dogs. We find evidence for selection for divergence at coding repeat loci in the form of both elevated purity and extensive length polymorphism among different breeds. Variations in the number of repeats in the coding regions of the Alx-4 (aristaless-like 4) and Runx-2 (runt-related transcription factor 2) genes were quantitatively associated with significant differences in limb and skull morphology. We identified similar repeat length variation in the coding repeats of Runx-2, Twist, and Dlx-2 in several other species. The high frequency and incremental effects of repeat length mutations provide molecular explanations for swift, yet topologically conservative morphological evolution.

repeat | tandem

Author contributions: J.W.F. designed research; J.W.F. performed research; H.R.G. contributed new reagents/analytic tools; J.W.F. analyzed data; and J.W.F. wrote the paper.

Abbreviation: Runx-2, runt-related transcription factor 2.

Data deposition: The sequences reported in this paper have been deposited in the GenBank database (accession nos. AY308807–AY308823).

* To whom correspondence should be addressed. E-mail:
.
© 2004 by The National Academy of Sciences of the USA



#33118: — 07/28  at  08:58 PM
Trackback: Rhymes for the ID Nursery Tracked on: PhaWRONGula (72.9.234.70) at 2005 07 28 19:40:18
Old Mother William Wrote many a "trillion" To fetch her dogma a meal..


Thats an intresting blog..

-----
"As with all of ID, the important thing is first to have the concept. Production can then follow as a matter of course.” -Dembski



#33128: — 07/28  at  10:45 PM
It is the hox paradox hoax.

Let's start a discussion on the 'ID paradox' instead. The ID paradox is to try to intelligently argue for an anti-intellectual faith explanation of parts of nature. It is used to create controversy against science, which is a huge problem. (I hope they quote-mine that!)



#33129: — 07/28  at  10:54 PM
On second thought, lets not start that discussion! But it would be a cool concept to throw back at'em.



#33131: — 07/29  at  02:01 AM
Here's a lame suggestion: the phrase "ID paradox" could be googlebombed in retaliation. It's a rather jejune pastime, but the results can be amusing. See, for example, Santorum and miserable failure.

(Not all the validation words are biological. Godless America, land that I love.)



#33136: Matt — 07/29  at  07:10 AM
Maybe Paul Nelson could add the term 'Ontogenetic Depth' while he's in google-mode, so that he could identify for us any links that actually make good on his promise to define precisely the term.

Sorry Paul, but your credibility on issues in developmental biology is near zero until you can deliver the goods on this. It just looks like there's an awful lot of superficial opinionizing on your part.



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