Pharyngula

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Friday, February 11, 2005

Etzioni redux

Etzioni replies to my harsh criticisms.

You may recall that Etzioni baldly claimed that "no fact about evolution is the result of an experiment" and "And by the way, the scientists that claim that they conducted experiments to prove their point? They didn’t." I said the man was a phony, a fraud, and a fool, since those claims are completely wrong, and the only way anyone could make them is if they were utterly oblivious to what has been going on in biology for the past century.

Here's his new defense:

I asked why not use the comparison between evolution and intelligent design, in science classes, to show students the difference between a theory supported by scientific facts and those that are not? When I was a student, granted a long time ago, we were told that there were those who BELIEVED in flat earth theory (which was promoted by the Church), and then we were asked to view ships coming in over the horizon. It was noted that if the earth was flat, the ships would look small but all of their parts would show. However, given the earth's curve, we first see the smokestacks, then the upper deck, and so on. Other observable data were provided. We thus learned not only that the earth was round but also that some theories, promoted by true believers, are without scientific merit. Why not accept the challenge in this case?

Note that there are several peculiarities here that reinforce my earlier assessment of his knowledge of science.

  • With few exceptions, no educated person has promoted the idea of a flat earth since at least the third century, and the earth was observed to be round at least as early as the sixth century B.C. I doubt that Dr Etzioni is almost 3,000 years old, or even 1,800 years old.
  • After dismissing evolution with the false claim that there are no experiments in the field (hmmm, didn't I just post a summary of some experiments?), his instructive example, a piece of evidence for a round earth, is not an experiment. It's an observation. At least it's good to see he can occasionally escape his naive and narrow understanding of how science is done.
  • I can offer a perfectly analogous example of evidence for evolution, one that was provided in the 19th century. When we observe the distribution of fossils preserved in the rocks, we see a succession of novel forms. The earth has a long history of continuous change, well documented and consistent in its observed patterns. Dr Etzioni might want to talk to some school children—there are always a few who can rattle off lists of dinosaurs and their geological ages.
  • These kinds of examples of the evidence for evolution are everywhere, and can be found in long lists on the web. We go over them again and again. When someone asks us, we happily reply with all kinds of examples—at a meeting where the invited speaker failed to show up, I was once asked to give an impromptu one-hour lecture on evo-devo to a group of students. It was no problem. Of course, when someone doesn't ask, but instead announces, against all reason and in defiance of whole libraries full of documentation, that there is no experimental evidence for evolution, we're also smart enough to know that he isn't looking for explanations. He's asking for an ass-kicking.
  • Good science teaching is done by critical examination of the evidence. If Dr Etzioni had taken any science courses, or read any of the popular books on evolution, he would know this. Science classes are not about telling students to memorize dogma—we leave that to the Sunday schools,.
  • If Dr Etzioni were ever to look in on a geology class, he'd learn that they might (but not necessarily) spend a little time discussing the history of the discipline, and they may briefly mention the idea of a flat earth or a young earth as a quaint and thoroughly outmoded concept. Similarly, I spent a little time in my genetics class discussing the old idea of pangenesis. What is appropriate is to briefly mention antiquated ideas and move on to more productive and informative discussions of our current understanding of the world. I could easily spend more time trashing garbage ideas like creationism, but that isn't what the ID crowd is asking for: they want it treated respectfully, as a serious and useful way to study science. It isn't.

That last point is an important one. Look at what the Intelligent Design creationists all demand. Two things: 1) critical examination of flaws in evolutionary theory, and 2) instruction in their favored hypothesis, Intelligent Design. The first is superfluous, as we already provide it, as well as we can—it's difficult to provide intelligent criticism if you don't understand the ideas in the first place, as creationists and Etzioni have shown us, so we do have to invest a fair amount of effort in getting the basic ideas across before we start on the missing or flawed bits of the story. The second is notable because of what they don't demand: critical examination of the flaws of ID. If some problems in evolution (which, I've noticed, none of these guys ever mention—they always bring up wacky stupid nonsense which is not a problem) leave them so distressed that they have to politic for relief, they ought to be even more irate at the glaring deficiencies of the Intelligent Design hypothesis.

They want to "teach the controversy." OK, let's be honest about it then, and mandate a new teaching standard:

Students will learn about the serious, unrecoverable flaws in hypotheses that purport to explain life's history by invoking supernatural beings or unobserved extraterrestrials. The strengths of and support for the theory of evolution, which has superseded them, will be explained in the context of the scientific method, the use of observation skills, and an appreciation for the rules of logic and evidence.

That's one way to get Intelligent Design creationism into the curriculum that I could support.

In many ways, the reason we don't talk about creationism much in science classes is for the same reason we avoid talking about religion in the schools. It's a strategy to protect old superstitions from the kind of shredding they would get if they were treated as serious academic subject.


(EvolutionBlog weighs in on Etzioni, too.)


Trackback url: http://pharyngula.org/index/trackback/1906/GemAO1ws/

Comments:
#15820: Les Lane — 02/11  at  11:11 AM
The flat Earth is historically relevant, intelligent design is not.



#15821: — 02/11  at  11:33 AM
Les, I disagree with you. Ideas about creationism, intelligent design, and
similar notions are historically relevant. They're also culturally relevant.
The real reason why they aren't discussed in science classes is that
the intellectually honest approach to discussing them would outrage
a lot of people.

Of course, what the ID folk want is an intellectually dishonest discussion.



#15822: — 02/11  at  11:34 AM
I like the idea of spending time focusing on the flaws of intelligent design, especially if the focus is on what is understandable to the general public. Most id types spend a great deal of energy talking about irreducible complexity and I have the following thoughts:
1. Who is the final arbiter on what is, and is not, irreducibly complex?
2. Is there a specific set-point where they stop working empirically, throw up a red flag, and fall back to the line of irreducible complexity?
3. Is what they consider to be irreducibly complex open to change based on technological breakthroughs allowing new experimentation or observation?
The time and energy required to debunk every misguided perception of the creationist junta is daunting but debunk we must. Your work is appreciated PZ!



#15823: pough — 02/11  at  11:43 AM
Ethan, I disagree with you. Ideas about creationism, intelligent design, and similar notions are silly, but possibly culturally relevant within the context of religion classes. The real reason why they aren’t discussed in science classes is that they are not science.

Of course, what the ID folk want is a miracle. (They wouldn't have a prayer if there weren't so many stupid people in the world.)



#15824: — 02/11  at  11:49 AM
"Ethan, I disagree with you. Ideas about creationism, intelligent design, and similar notions are silly, but possibly culturally relevant within the context of religion classes. The real reason why they aren’t discussed in science classes is that they are not science."

But we discuss things that aren't science all the time in introductory
classes. We do it as a service to the students, to explain what is
science and what isn't, and why many ideas that they have
uncritically absorbed are simply wrong. Consider, for example,
the way intuitive,, and incorrect, notions about dynamics are
carefully debunked in elementary physics classes.

We shouldn't let such discussions take over a significant fraction of the
class time, but they are very helpful. In a more rational culture,
it would be a good idea to use creationism and ID as bad examples
in introductory science classes. Here it could only get you into
trouble.

More later, I have to teach.



#15825: pough — 02/11  at  11:50 AM
BTW, PZ, I noticed that same thing about Dr Etzioni's flat earth mention when I read it yesterday. It's maybe a better comparison than you thought. Start off with an idea that's ridiculous and patently false (flat earth/creationism/ID), yet accepted as truth by those with a limited scope for understanding, and then blow it out of the water with the truth (spherical earth/evolution).

The only trouble is that flat earth theory was superceded by a better understanding of our world, yet creationism/ID seems to be a little sticky. It's pretty easy to see the earth as a sphere these days, but it's much more difficult to "see" evolution. You have to combat ALL those misconceptions about it first (people seem to believe the craziest stuff about evolution), and then move on to the libraries full of evidence and documentation.



#15826: — 02/11  at  12:01 PM
P.Z. -- True, Etzioni is woefully ignorant of science and misguided in believing that "intelligent design" creationism has any place in a science classroom. But you stepped over the line, and I feel obligated to point this out in the interest of fairness.

Etzioni says:

When I was a student, granted a long time ago, we were told that there were those who BELIEVED in flat earth theory (which was promoted by the Church), and then we were asked to view ships coming in over the horizon.


This one Etzioni statement is entirely consistent with criticisms of the flat earth "myth" that you point to. He is merely , and unfairly, using this criticism to impugn evolution. He should therefore be criticized for this, and not, as you wrote:

"With few exceptions, no educated person has promoted the idea of a flat earth since at least the third century, and the earth was observed to be round at least as early as the sixth century B.C. I doubt that Dr Etzioni is almost 3,000 years old, or even 1,800 years old."



's avatar #15827: Stephen Stralka — 02/11  at  12:21 PM
I'm kind of baffled by Etzioni's flat earth analogy. On the face of it, he seems to be saying that science teachers should just go ahead and show the proofs for evolution, in the same way that his teachers offered simple proofs that the earth is round. Is he really taking his own ignorance of the evidence for evolution as proof that scientists have something to hide?

If that really is what he's saying, it's one of the most preposterous statements I've ever seen from a person who claims to be educated. There are literally mountains of evidence for evolution, and science teachers, biologists, geneticists, paleontologists, and so on talk about it all the time. In great detail, too. They write whole books about it.

Alas, it does indeed appear to be what he's saying, because in an earlier blog entry he says this:

Why then are science advocates so fearful of showing their hand on the evolution issue? Just possibly because it is much weaker than the scientists pretend?


If he'd just take off the goddamned blindfold, he'd see that scientists are "showing their hands on the evolution issue" all over the place.



#15829: — 02/11  at  12:33 PM
DrKLD said,
I like the idea of spending time focusing on the flaws of intelligent design...

Yes, I agree.

But, it seems that biologists are getting enough trouble (from the religious right) when attempting to teach evolution - a theory which is not inherently anti-religious.

Wouldn't it be hiliarious if we "obliged" by allowing ID/Creationism into the classrooms, only to subsequently debunk (destroy) the religious "theory" right in front of their children's faces!

Could this open up biology classrooms as an optimal forum for discussing much of the idiocy involved with much of the NeoCon's other beliefs?

"Mommy, I just signed up for Secularism 101."

"Nooooooooooooooooo!"

smile

Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

-Jerry Garcia



's avatar #15832: PZ Myers — 02/11  at  12:53 PM
Steve, I hate to defend the church, but my point is that his flat-earth lesson plan was phony. The church really didn't defend flat-earthism (except, of course, for a few crackpots), and this hasn't been a serious consideration for centuries.

I think I need a medievalist to come along and say that it's not true, people in the middle ages weren't that stupid.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#15841: — 02/11  at  02:03 PM
I'm not a mediaevalist, but I came across this recently:

"According to Jeffrey Burton Russell ..., the invention of the flat Earth myth can be laid at the feet of Washington Irving, who included it in his historical novel on Columbus, and the wider idea that the everyone in the Middle Ages was deluded has been widely accepted ever since.

http://www.bede.org.uk/flatearth.htm



#15846: — 02/11  at  03:05 PM
"my point is that his flat-earth lesson plan was phony. The church really didn’t defend flat-earthism (except, of course, for a few crackpots), and this hasn’t been a serious consideration for centuries."


Perhaps this misunderstanding is a Friday afternoon thing, but I read between the lines from Etzioni's statement (please look at the one sentence again) that it's a common and unfair criticism of the Medieval/Renaissance Church that they promoted a flat earth theory, when a flat earth is so immediately and demonstrably false (as related in his plausible account as a student). So by my reading, Etzioni agrees with you one this one point.

Etzioni is simply repeating a criticism (of the unfair flat earth criticism) that a zillion creationist websites have picked up on. Everyone agrees on this one, irrelevant point.

The salient question is why some contemporary churches promote "intelligent design" creationism, when this idea is so immediately and demonstrably false.



#15860: Bartholomew — 02/11  at  07:37 PM
What about this guy?

The following fatwa [decree] that was issued by Sheik Abdel-Aziz Ibn Baaz, Supreme religious authority, Saudi Arabia. It was issued in the year 1993--just 8 years ago.

It comes from The Permanent Committee for Islaamic Research and Fataawa, comprising - Head: Shaykh 'Abdul 'Azeez Ibn Abdullaah Ibn Baaz;

Here is the fatwa...

Title of the Book: "Evidence that the Earth is Standing Still."
Author: Sheikh Abdul Aziz Ben Baz.
Editor: Islamic University of Medina.
Year: 1395 AH
City: Medina, Saudi Arabia.
Page: 23.

"If the earth is rotating as they claim, the countries, the mountains, the trees, the rivers, and the oceans will have no bottom and the people will see the eastern countries move to the west and the western countries move to the east."

"In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Merciful, The Bestower of Mercy."

"The earth is flat, and anyone who disputes this claim is an atheist who deserves to be punished." [Muslim religious edict, 1993, Sheik Abdel-Aziz Ibn Baaz, Supreme religious authority, Saudi Arabia]



#15863: — 02/11  at  08:38 PM
Well I'm not exactly a medievalist in the common usage (i.e. Medieval Europe) but I am an Islamicist who studies medieval Islam and I fear that the previous post of Ibn Bazz's fatwa leaves a serious misimpression as to traditional Muslim knowledge of astronomy/geography. As the times of the obligatory religious practices of ritual prayer and the fast of the month of Ramadan are dependent upon astronomical phenomena (specificaly, the position of the sun and the sighting of the new moon, respectively) careful astronomical observation and calculation was of primary importance. Some early and very accurate observations with a view to calculating the circumference of the earth were made by mathematician and astronomer Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khawarizmi (d. 840 C.E.) from whose name we have algorithm and from the title of a work of his, algebra.

The circumference of the earth was measured with a very high degree of accuracy by the genius polymath al-Biruni (d. 1048 C.E.).

This is not some forgotten knowledge. I know that in the Maghreb traditional astronomy is still tought to those studying to become religous scholars. Ibn Bazz is a fruitcake.



#15867: — 02/11  at  10:09 PM
Barry,

I'm very glad to find someone with your knowledge contributing. Do you happen to know what this 'Permanent Committee for Islaamic Research and Fataawa' is, how mainstream they are, and what Sheik Abdel-Aziz Ibn Baaz is the 'Supreme Religious Authority' of?



's avatar #15869: — 02/11  at  10:44 PM
Etzioni now says he proposed teaching ID in science classes as counterpoint to evolution, something like the flat earth theory in geography classes. PZ, I would not accept so easily his retraction, which is as blatantly phony as the man himself. On a second thought, he may not be phony, he is just an old fool. The rule is: If stupidity explains it, there is no need to search for further reasons.

Quod natura non sunt turpia



#15877: — 02/12  at  04:01 AM
Barry, thank you for that post. Islamic schoolars are, as far as I know, very competent in the area of astronomy. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be the case in the area of evolution - or am I mistaken here?



#15881: Bartholomew — 02/12  at  07:28 AM
I take Barry's point. I deliberately called Baaz (or "Baz" as he is also spelt) "this guy" to show that I was talking about one nutter rather than an entire religion. As for the teaching of evolution in Muslim countries, I don't know about the overall situation but there's an interesting account from a Kuwaiti in the latest James Randi Commentary.



's avatar #15885: — 02/12  at  10:17 AM
Abdulaziz el-Baz ("The Eagle") is the "Pope" of the Wahhabi Muslims. He knows the Koran by heart, and Etzioni's demonstration that Earth is not flat will not work with him, since he is 95 y.o. and blind since 1926. El-Baz was accused of being a liberal, almost unbeliever, by Bin Laden, who sees himself as the true defender of the faith. If Mohammed himself is on record for saying that the Earth is flat, then for Bin Laden the Earth is flatter than flat. But his followers learned enough to fly jumbo jets.

Quod natura non sunt turpia



#15889: — 02/12  at  11:46 AM
"Science classes are not about telling students to memorize dogma" -- What about the central dogma? *rimshot*



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