Pharyngula

Pharyngula has moved to http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/

Friday, February 20, 2004

Feser on the warpath

Feser is still nuts, and he's mad at everyone who called him on it. He's got another diatribe up on Tech Central Station.

It's more whining, so I'm not going to dig deeply into it. I just want to mention a very few things. First, here's a complaint that is comically reflexive:

No, I don't really think that left-wingers like Hitler. The point was rather that, given the actual content and historical development of Fascist and National Socialist doctrine, there are far more connections between it and the modern Left than there are between it and the modern Right. Therefore if, as so many Leftists like to do, you are going to play "pin the Swastika on the donkey," it follows that it is far more plausible to pin it on the Left than on the Right. So, Leftists should, if they are intellectually honest, stop playing that stupid game, and in particular quit using the tired "Nazi" and "Fascist" labels to smear anyone who disagrees with them. All clear?

All clear, sir. You don't think left-wingers like Hitler, they are like Hitler. And leftists don't get to play stupid games and smear their opponents with tired insults because that's your job. Yes, sir.

OK, but he does ask a semi-serious question, and one that is worth considering. Unfortunately, while it is interesting in its general form, he then breaks it down into what he considers relevant sub-questions, which really only reveal his bizarre biases.

The real question is whether on balance, in general, students tend to become more liberal as a result of their university experience; and this question can, for clarity's sake, be broken up into a number of sub-questions:
1. Are students today, on balance and in general, more likely after having attended university to be hostile to capitalism?

I don't even know what this means. What is the concern about hostility to capitalism? Is Feser worried that students will graduate and move en masse to a commune, or start plotting to blowing up the stock exchange? If that's the case, then no, it is not more likely. If he means, "will students have a better awareness of the weaknesses of capitalism and the advantages of other systems", then yes, I certainly hope they do come away with that. Or does Feser want us to instead indoctrinate students into believing in the perfection of the capitalist system?

2. Are they, on balance and in general, more likely after having attended university to think that modern industrial society is inhuman, devastates the environment, impoverishes the Third World, etc.?

Yes, I certainly do hope they do. Industrial society does devastate the environment and has harmed the Third World. If our students don't come away knowing something about the flaws and tradeoffs of the system, how will they ever be able to work to correct them? Are right-wingers required to ignore deforestation, global warming, pollution, and degradation of soil and water?

3. Are they, on balance and in general, more likely after having attended university to think that differences in wealth, income, and the like between the sexes and between ethnic groups are the result of deep-rooted sexism and racism in American society?

I should think they'd also be learning about other contributors to inequity as well, but yes. I'm not at all sure what Feser would propose as an alternative. That sexism and racism don't exist, or that they don't contribute to economic unfairness? Are poor people poor because they deserve to be poor?

4. Are they, on balance and in general, more likely after having attended university to believe that the history of Western civilization is largely a shameful history of oppression and exploitation?

They certainly will. After all, part of our history is opression and exploitation, so if they've recieved an honest education in the subject they will be more likely to recognize that than if they'd gotten the kind of jingoistic rah-rah Western history Dr Feser apparently favors. Is he unwilling to admit that there has been a significant amount of oppression and exploitation in our cultural history (as well as everyone elses!)?

5. Are they, on balance and in general, more likely after having attended university to believe that there is no rational foundation for traditional religious belief, especially of the Christian sort -- indeed that Christianity is a uniquely repressive and irrational creed?

It is definitely true that the more educated you are, the more likely you are to reject organized religion. I don't think anyone singles out Christianity as unique, though—I'm not exactly rushing out to embrace Islam or Zoroastrianism or Hinduism. They're all equally silly. I presume Dr Feser would like us to teach that Christianity in particular is a rational religion? Piffle.

6. Are they, on balance and in general, more likely after having attended university to believe that traditional moral scruples, especially concerning sex, lack any rational justification and ought to be abandoned as mere expressions of superstition and bigotry?

Maybe. But it's more likely due to the fact that universities are institutions that bring together curious young adults in their sexual prime than that we professors are preaching licentiousness at them.

But let's return to the original question: do students tend to become more liberal as a result of their university experience? I think that is probably true, and I think that is a good thing. After all, what does it mean to be a good liberal? I think it means, in part, that:

  • you are a critical thinker, and that you don't simply accept the word of authority.
  • you revise your ideology to fit the facts, rather than revising the facts to fit your ideology.
  • you are open to alternative views, and don't automatically assume that your view (or the view of Westerners in general) is the best.
  • you consider economic and social inequity to be an injustice, and one of your principles is to reduce it.

There are weird people who call themselves liberals that I'd probably denounce as vigorously as does Feser, but strangely enough, the America-hating Marxist wacko seems to be even rarer on college campuses than ranting right-wing ideologues like Feser—while the majority of academe may be left of center, it's not that far left, and it certainly doesn't correspond in any way to the caricature he makes of it.

Even more strangely, I believe a lot of good conservatives also learn the values I listed above; I don't think conservativism itself is inimical to open-mindedness or critical thinking. However, the pathological kind of conservativism that Feser endorses, which apparently to his mind is the only acceptable kind, is the antithesis of what we want to see graduating from our universities. If we aspire to excellence in our students, we certainly wouldn't want to produce the kind of bad conservatives Feser represents.

(There's also a good discussion of Feser on Crooked Timber.)


Trackback url: http://pharyngula.org/index/trackback/405/oOMSkGvd/

Comments:
#746: Gary GNu — 02/20  at  03:12 PM
I'm afraid Feser wins this round. Simply laughing off or dismissing his ideas proves his point.



's avatar #747: PZ Myers — 02/20  at  03:27 PM
Some of his "ideas" deserve to be laughed off. They're ridiculous.

As for dismissing his ideas, I actually discussed them up above. Because I found them wanting does not mean I didn't consider them.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#748: — 02/20  at  04:00 PM
I attended a smallish state university between 1984 and 1987, and I do not recall ONE professor taking a stance on any political issues. I took Chicano History for my required multi-cultural class, and it was a fairly straightforward history class. Was Eastern Washington University weird, or was I just not paying sufficient attention? I know I wasn't drunk...



's avatar #749: PZ Myers — 02/20  at  05:38 PM
I'm currently at a university, and I don't know anyone who comes even close to the fairytale leftist of Feser's accounts. And yes, I know people in the social science and humanities divisions. I consider myself a fairly rabid liberal, and even I am not anything like what Feser describes as pervasive in academe.

While you might not have been drunk, I wonder what state Feser was in...

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#750: — 02/21  at  09:45 PM
Just wanted to post here. I was the Berube "reader" who sent the "hoax" e-mail. Since Feser didn't post it, see below(his response first then my initial e-mail)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi, many thanks for your kind words about my article, and good luck with
fulfilling your dream of doing honest science. Don't let yourself be
discouraged or worry that it's too idealistic -- you can never go wrong
trying to do the right thing.

Best,
EF



Edward Feser
Visiting Assistant Professor
Department of Philosophy
Loyola Marymount University
Los Angeles, CA


>From:
>To:
>Subject: Science and the Left
>Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 08:43:42 -0700 (MST)
>
>Thanks for the enlightening article on the campus domination of the left.
>
>As a student in the PhD program in Atmospheric Science, it is required
>that none of my research support any right-wing causes. If my results do
>not support anti-business/pro-environment causes, they are rejected out of hand. Because of the domination of the left in our program, I was unable
>to procede with my research that showed the ozone hole never existed and that global warming is a myth created by wacko liberals whose sole goal is to bring down big business, simply because of their hate for capitalism.
>
>I hope someday to do science and let the results speak for themsleves and not be influenced by political motivation. Maybe a little too idealistic?
>
>


I guess the sarcasm wasn't obvious enough. He actually called me simple minded and a fool! Classic. I guess I should reconsider defending this Spring.

Scott



#751: Dave Gudeman — 02/22  at  12:29 AM
In what sense would a person who learned the values you discuss above be a conservative?

BTW, I responded to your article here http://docrampage.blogspot.com/2004_02_15_docrampage_archive.html#107743061928382416

--
Doc Rampage
Bad Conservative



's avatar #752: PZ Myers — 02/22  at  02:04 AM
Doc Rampage: that's pretty funny. You might want to look at those values I listed a little more closely: critical thinking, open-mindedness, a willingness to revise your beliefs in the face of evidence...I thought those were things most conservatives would also value highly, and I intentionally listed virtues that I thought everyone but some really bizarre extremist would appreciate. But OK, if you say so: being a conservative means you are credulous, close-minded, and ignore the evidence. I think we now have an explanation for why there aren't many of them in academe.

For the fourth value I gave, social justice, I could see where one might argue that conservatives would place other values higher. I didn't think they would totally reject it, though, but again, I will accept your opinion. Conservatives also favor inequity and injustice.

Man, you guys aren't very nice people at all, are you?

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



's avatar #753: PZ Myers — 02/22  at  02:11 AM
Scott: I think the problem is that irony is dead. After reading Doc Rampage's article, and seeing commenters here state with seeming seriousness that there is nothing wrong with stockpiling guns and chasing the tax collector away, I fear that it is impossible to lace a letter with sufficient sarcasm to make it recognizably different from real right-wing positions.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#754: Dave Gudeman — 02/22  at  03:34 AM
PZ, I misread the original article, I thought the values you referred to where listed in the answers to the six questions.

As to your first virtue, I _am_ a critical thinker who doesn't simply accept the word of authority. Ask just about any authority I've ever had. I just don't consider that a virtue. It's merely a personality trait.

Your second virtue makes the false assumption that facts are independent of ideology. The facts that one observes are greatly influenced by one's perceptions, which, of course, are largely influenced by one's ideology.

Your third virtue is incoherent. If a "view" isn't something I believe, then I don't know what it is. And of course I believe my beliefs. If you only mean to suggest that our beliefs should be subject to revision, then, again, this is only a virtue if your beliefs are wrong. And if you think they are wrong, why do you believe them? What this seems to come down to is that you don't believe anything. I don't consider that a virtue. Nor do I believe that you follow this virtue yourself. If you were really ready to seriously consider alternatives to your beliefs, you would not be so reflexively contemptuous of those alternative beliefs. I'm the one taking you seriously here, you are not taking me seriously.

Your fourth virtue is not much different from saying that being a leftist is a virtue. I don't consider economic and social inequality to be an injustice. The very notion strikes me as absurd. And this doesn't mean, as you so facilely concluded in your reply, that I favor inequity and injustice. It means that I acknowledge inequity as a fact of life, and I don't consider this an injustice. Of course I don't favor injustice.

As to being a nice person, I'll note that in this conversation I'm the one who is being courteous and you who are the one being rude.



#755: Dave Gudeman — 02/22  at  03:51 AM
Here's another question for you. You were quite harsh with Feser for the oblique way he compared leftists with Nazis. Have you been this harsh on the leftists who have openly and directly compared conservatives with Nazis? And how do you propose that conservatives defend themselves against this slander if it is not legitimate to take it seriously and discuss who it more closely applies to?



#756: — 02/22  at  08:43 AM
PZ,

Thanks for the reply. The good that has come from this all is I have discovered yours and Crooked Timbers blog.

I think it was Newt Gingrich who had said some years ago ago that he desired to drive the left from public office and back to academia where they belong. If they now desire to drive us from academia, what's left? Complete eradication?

I have long stood by one of the main idealogical positions of the left is that we (maybe I should say me) recognize the need for the right in the political discourse to balance things out. The right simply wants us to go away.

Scott



's avatar #757: PZ Myers — 02/22  at  10:06 AM
Gudeman: I was quite harsh on Feser for blithely stating that calling people "Nazis" is a stupid, tired game while he was calling leftists "Nazis" in the very same paragraph. You can't possibly be that blind to irony, can you? And no, I don't endorse throwing the Nazi label around freely. It is particularly unbelievable that someone would think that liberal social progressives share much in common with a racist militarist and dictator, and it seems to me that you are trying to defend Feser, who made precisely that comparison.

As for my four virtues, you continue to put your foot in it, trying to argue away from them. I don't understand that at all. I would have thought that critical thinking, flexibility, open-mindedness, and fairness would be something that all of us, conservative and liberal alike, would agree upon as good things. I am surprised at how many conservatives are so openly uncomfortable with them.

Oh, and yes, there are facts that are independent of ideology. You cannot pretend that the flu virus, safes falling from windows, or the national debt are phantasms that will disappear if only you close your eyes tightly and wish for fairies to whisk them away.

Scott: Have you also discovered David Neiwert? He has documented the eliminationist rhetoric of the right wing rather well, and yes, eradication is one goal of the extremists. Not the majority, I hope, but I am continually astonished at how readily right-wing hate speech is accommodated by the mainstream.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#758: Andrew Reeves — 02/22  at  10:45 AM
You're bullet-pointed list, to be charitable, does not seem to apply to most leftists I have encountered. "Michael Moore says..." "Noam Chomsky says ...," or "I read....in Adbusters" is not exactly critical thinking. Critical thinking, a willingness to change one's views in the face of facts, and an open mind are all the hallmarks of a centrist more than of any left or right-wing partisans. Is it any more irrational to say that a government can afford to fight two wars at once while cutting taxes than to say that if we try one more time, this time we will arrive at a perfect anarcho-syndicalist paradise rather than a dystopian hell?



's avatar #759: PZ Myers — 02/22  at  12:10 PM
My list is an ideal; I have no illusions that all leftists hew perfectly to it. I know I don't. I do think that, on average, they do better at it than right-wingers, and we at least aspire to those virtues.

Need I mention that us liberals are not advocating an "anarcho-syndicalist paradise", while the rightists have dragged us into unnecessary and fruitless wars while sinking us deeper and deeper into catastrophic debt? Please do not berate us for imaginary follies while claiming that they are just as awful as the real disasters conservatives have spawned.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#760: Andrew Reeves — 02/22  at  03:13 PM
Okay, granted, most leftists aren't of the radical persuasion. My perspective has probably been altered by the fact that I have spent the last four years in Austin, TX and Toronto, ON and thus my experience with those on the left is with the folks who wear their fashionable radicalism on their sleeve. Most leftists I have encountered consider drawing a Hitler moustache on a picture of GW to be the height of sophisticated political commentary.

The "good government technocrat" wing of the American Democratic party *is* perfectly rational (for the most part); the "Sharon and Hitler are the same/ The only difference is the name!" crowd is not. Given that there is a move afoot within the Democratic party to restore ideological purity by repudiating the "good government technocrat" policies of the Clinton administration, I would say that one is on shaky ground saying that any one branch of the American political spectrum is more rational than the other.

And why pluralize "wars?" Surely you can't think that toppling the Taliban was a bad thing, can you?

And speaking of irrationality, I agree that anti-environmentalist "liberterians" are insane.



's avatar #761: PZ Myers — 02/22  at  04:19 PM
See? There is such a thing as a semi-sensible conservative. And I agree that the left has its own collection of fruitcakes -- the reincarnated-egyptian-princess, homeopathic, crystal-healing, fate-in-the-stars-reading, gushy moonbat type. The big difference, though, is that our extremists are marginalized and laughed at, while the Republican extremists, who are just as batty as ours, run the dogdamned party. I sure wish the moderate Republicans would quit pandering to the theocratic wing so we could have reasonable political choices again.

Toppling the Taliban was good, hunting Osama bin Laden was justified, but the lack of follow through in that country and the fact that our administration was only using it as a steppingstone to go after their predetermined bad guy rather compromises my opinion of the whole thing. Pakistan and Afghanistan have not become more stable as a result of our intervention there.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#762: Andrew Reeves — 02/22  at  04:45 PM
I agree with you that those running the party now are not behaving in a manner that is not particularly rational. The funny thing is, the fiscal irrationality is not so much unprecedentedly right-wing as it is unprecedentedly stupid. When it became apparent in the early 80's that perhaps the Kemp-Roth tax cuts were a bit *too* extreme, Reagan raised taxes. Likewise, 1986 saw the remarkable sanity of Gramm-Rudman. Today's GOP, though, seems to have lost its collective mind and resorted to a"Cutting taxes is good because cutting taxes is good" sort of mindset.

The right-wing think-tanks and their "tame scientists" have, as long as we're on the subject of rationality, been one of the worst things to happen to the American right in some time. I find very few things more disturbing than a research organization that tells its researchers what results they are supposed to arrive at and then sets a study in motion.

There *is* still something of a "good government technocrat" wing of the GOP; it's best characterized in, f'rex Bush I and McCain. Sadly, it seems to be in terrible shape at the moment.



's avatar #763: PZ Myers — 02/22  at  05:58 PM
That's exactly what I mean. I wouldn't vote for McCain myself, but if he won the election I wouldn't have this heart-stopping sensation that the entire country has just run off the rails, like I did with GW Bush. I might even be able to agree with some of his policies (not many, though...I gotta keep my liberal cred.)

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



Trackback: Eight questions about university indoctrination Tracked on: Doc Rampage (0) at 2004 02 23 03:00:50
The problem is that people replied to it by saying basically, yes, it makes students believe those things, but those things are objectively true, so the students are just becoming better educated. One really has to sympathize with this view; given th...



#764: — 02/23  at  07:55 PM
"Are poor people poor because they deserve to be poor?"

No, they're poor because they're lazy, you mollycoddling liberal! Or, if you want to take the Puritan approach, they're poor because they weren't arbitrarily selected for salvation by an all-powerful deity. smile



Page 1 of 1 pages

Next entry: Bush-league science

Previous entry: I think I despise anti-environmentalists as much as I do anti-evolutionists

<< Back to main

Info

email PZ Myers
Search
Archives
UMM—America's best public liberal arts college