#36483: notheory — 08/19  at  04:09 PM
mmph.

Well, having hung out with enough mormons, and engaged in years of discussions and flame-wars, i can say this much:

Christian theists (and probably other sorts of theists as well) believe that there is religious truth. Again, varying dependent upon their belief system, they believe that their deity communicates truth to them through things like divine inspiration or revelation.

Arguing with this is impossible. It's inherently subjective, untestable, and private. BUT, short of denying their world-view, you can't assert that it's not a type of truth. We can however definitely assert that religious truth is not on par with the rigors of scientific truth.

[man am i going to get flamed for this. And it's not even my belief system :( ]

#36484: TroutGrrrl — 08/19  at  04:13 PM
Maybe I've missed them, but have many of our scieniic societies and professional organizations come out with statements pointing out our collective viewpoints on this topic?

I've not seen them, but I just posted a blurb about some ag science societies, of which I'm a member, that distributed a position press release this week.

#36485: — 08/19  at  04:13 PM
I suppose he had to do something to make up for his stem cell position.

#36486: charlie wagner — 08/19  at  04:13 PM
LOSER OF THE DAY

Edmund Morris wrote in the New York Times on Wednesday, August 17, 2005:

"For the meantime, he (George W. Bush) is our elected president, with the business of a nation to run. Ms. Sheehan has gotten more time with him than most grieving mothers, and if she felt, during those unsatisfactory minutes, that there was a glass wall around him, it unfortunately comes with the job. A president has to protect himself from emotional predators, or he'd be sucked dry within a week of taking office."

#36488: — 08/19  at  04:19 PM

Edmund Morris wrote in the New York Times on Wednesday, August 17, 2005:

"For the meantime, he (George W. Bush) is our elected president, with the business of a nation to run. Ms. Sheehan has gotten more time with him than most grieving mothers, and if she felt, during those unsatisfactory minutes, that there was a glass wall around him, it unfortunately comes with the job. A president has to protect himself from emotional predators, or he'd be sucked dry within a week of taking office."

Sheehan is now a 'predator'. Nice. Add that to the pile.

Yeah, clearing all that brush takes a lot out of a guy. 'Keeping a balanced life' doesn't come easy. It's a haaaaaaarrrrrd job.

BTW, Charlie, what the F*CK does this inane posting have to do with Frist endorsing intelligent design creationism?

#36489: charlie wagner — 08/19  at  04:24 PM
George Cauldron wrote:

"BTW, Charlie, what the F*CK does this inane posting have to do with Frist endorsing intelligent design creationism?"

Absolutely nothing.

#36492: — 08/19  at  04:41 PM
I wonder what Frist's take is on his alma mater's pursuit of answers to questions about the origins of life?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/08/15/harvard.evolution.ap/

#36498: — 08/19  at  05:01 PM
Is this the same "pluralistic" Bill Frist who was trying to push the Gay Marriage Amendment through the US Senate? Surely not. ;)

#36505: — 08/19  at  05:35 PM
Yes, Frist supports pluralism! Consider that another vote for the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

"I think today a pluralistic society should have access to a broad range of fact, of science, including faith," Frist said.

How utterly bizarre.

Trackback: ASA-CSSA-SSSA Executive Committees Opposes Tracked on: Science and Sarcasm (72.9.234.70) at 2005 08 19 16:20:51
The American Society of Agronomy, the Crop Science Society of America and the Soil Science Society of America have jointly proclaimed GW Tush's recent endorsement of teaching creationism (or 'intelligent design' if you prefer the sanitized label) in ...

#36506: — 08/19  at  05:36 PM
Well, now, we can't expect too much from Frist; he's a politician, and not a very bright one at that.

I've heard one theory that he wants to be president so bad he can taste it; so he bounces back and forth between saying stupid things to placate the fundies and marginally less stupid things in a pathetic attempt to show he's a "moderate" (a near-extinct species in the GOP)--but not so "moderate" as to really alienate those fundies.

Perhaps a bit like Santorum's laughable attempt to put a bit of distance between himself and ID recently (though I don't know about Santorum's ambitions, other than he wants to keep on being a Senator). Like anyone would mistake either of these guys as moderates...

#36509: — 08/19  at  05:53 PM

Well, now, we can't expect too much from Frist; he's a politician, and not a very bright one at that.

I've heard one theory that he wants to be president so bad he can taste it; so he bounces back and forth between saying stupid things to placate the fundies and marginally less stupid things in a pathetic attempt to show he's a "moderate" (a near-extinct species in the GOP)--but not so "moderate" as to really alienate those fundies.

Perhaps a bit like Santorum's laughable attempt to put a bit of distance between himself and ID recently (though I don't know about Santorum's ambitions, other than he wants to keep on being a Senator). Like anyone would mistake either of these guys as moderates...

Yes, they're both jonesing for 2008 something terrible. Santorum's problem, aside from the secondary meaning his name has acquired, is that Pennsylvania might well kick him out next year. Whoops.

Oh yes, and he's also a Catholic. It remains to be seen how far the Fundies can tolerate that. Not that it would make them vote Democrat, but it might make them lose interest in voting.

Frist's issue is that he really does come across like a self-important dingbat, tho many people might not mind that.

I think the modern Received Wisdom of Republican Presidential Elections is that all that's REALLY necessary is to nail down that 33% Fundie base. Getting up to that magical 50.1% is almost an afterthought -- nail down the 'white male' vote and the hawk vote, drop in some Rovian attacks on whoever the opponent is, some election day funny business in some crucial states, and you're there. I think they've given up ever 'building a mandate'.

#36510: — 08/19  at  05:57 PM
"It's inherently subjective, untestable, and private. BUT, short of denying their world-view, you can't assert that it's not a type of truth."

Such religious sentiments are better defined as feelings, not as objective truths. It may be true that I feel a passion for invisible pink unicorns, but that doesn't make IPUs themselves true.

#36511: — 08/19  at  05:59 PM
Bill Frist may well be the most loathsome man in the Senate.

#36517: — 08/19  at  06:54 PM

"I think today a pluralistic society should have access to a broad range of fact, of science, including faith," Frist said.

What a great quote. Maybe we should take him literally and beat them with their own rule book. Hit them where it hurts: Lets expose students to a broad range of faiths - Judaism, Islam, Zoroastrianism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Hinduism and what the hell throw in a little Scientology too. We must teach the controversy! I bet Frist would gnaw off his own leg before he let that happen.

#36525: — 08/19  at  08:14 PM
"Bill Frist may well be the most loathsome man in the Senate."

Sorry, but when it comes to loathsome Senators Rick Santorum's in a league of his own! If for nothing else, his remarks on Catholic Online in which he blames "liberalism" for the Church's pedophile priest scandal have to be about the most rancid piece of apologism I've ever seen.

#36527: — 08/19  at  08:17 PM
"Bill Frist may well be the most loathsome man in the Senate."

Well, one of them, anyway! Frist has plenty of competition in the loathsome department...there's the aforementioned Santorum, Brownback, Coburn, Coleman, Craig, Gregg, Hatch, Hutchison, Inhofe, Lott...to name but a few...

#36529: — 08/19  at  08:18 PM
In a way, this is similar to what was going on in the 90's - but from the opposite end of the spectrum. Remember all the talk about scientific truths being just as societally constructed as all other cultural ideas? That Native American creation myths were just as factual as archaeological evidence. About how because females are fluid and soft and men are hard and rigid - that turbulent flow modeling was neglected in favor of that of linear, solid masses because of patriarchy(and not because the math is really complicated)? Or, for that matter the math of flud dynamics was harder than linear motions because the math was invented by men.

Ahh. the good old days.

#36531: Joseph j7uy5 — 08/19  at  08:24 PM
Frist is an embarrassment to physicians everywhere. Either he forgot most of the science he (should have) learned, or he has abandoned the core value of honesty.

#36535: Jim Harrison — 08/19  at  09:07 PM
Why would anybody assume that Frist were speaking in good faith? If I had to bet, I'd guess that he knows perfectly well that what he's saying is bogus.

#36537: — 08/19  at  09:29 PM
Notice how Frist's statements are lukewarm? So casual...
."I think today a pluralistic society should have access to a broad range of fact, of science, including faith,"

He's for a pluralistic society! Wow... damn near socialist.
He's in favor of a "broad range of fact". A real Renaissance man.

Then BANG.. "of science, including faith."

These guys are trying so hard to stay on the right side of the Right side, they will say anything, even when it makes no damn sense at all. You can call him stupid... I think it is worse than that. He is a physician. He knows better. He has sold his soul.

#36538: Narc — 08/19  at  09:36 PM
What did we do to deserve these fools?

We voted for them. (For sufficiently loose definitions of "we.")

#36547: Arun — 08/19  at  10:53 PM
I'm in a nasty mood this evening, so inducing anger is my thing.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/reed/reed59.html

I particularly liked the apoplexy-producing potential of this:

.....evolutionists are obsessed by Christianity and Creationism, with which they imagine themselves to be in mortal combat. This is peculiar to them. Note that other sciences, such as astronomy and geology, even archaeology, are equally threatened by the notion that the world was created in 4004 BC. Astronomers pay not the slightest attention to creationist ideas. Nobody does – except evolutionists. We are dealing with competing religions – overarching explanations of origin and destiny. Thus the fury of their response to skepticism.

#36549: — 08/19  at  11:30 PM
San Francisco Chronicle columnist Jon Carroll takes a crack at ID in the Friday issue.

"Intelligent design" used to be called "creationism," but some of the wackier creationists began alleging that humans and dinosaurs lived at the same time and that the Earth was only 6,000 years old, and that sort of stuff made even the theocrats nervous. So "intelligent design" was born.

Intelligent design is not science. It is not even a field of study. It is a belief system wrapped up in "scientific" language.

The whole thing is here.

#36550: — 08/19  at  11:34 PM
The first mistake is assuming that doctors know the fundamentals of science and how to discriminate science from non-science. Most don't, having only a superficial understanding at best. Nowhere in their curriculums, undergraduate and certainly professional, are they taught the philosophy and logic of science. Too little time and too much to cover. Go to any bookstore associated with a medical school and see if you can find any courses with texts that remotely deal with science in a way that would enable them to discern science from pseudoscience. Because of this weakness in understanding, conventionally trained physicians have a difficult time defending themselves against alternative medicine. Consider how they are taught both in school and in continuing education. Mountains of facts presented by experts with little flavor of the controversial or the degree of uncertainty, much of it essentially as dogma. Hence the recent rise of evidence-based medicine, which is essentially asking the question how strong is the evidence beyond just what is the evidence.