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Monday, July 04, 2005

Go back to Lake Wobegon, Garrison Keillor

I have to confess to a fondness for Garrison Keillor and the Prairie Home Companion. I know it's sappy and maudlin, and it speaks most clearly to a fairly narrow cultural mindset, but it's my culture. I grew up in the Pacific Northwest, but my mother and grandparents were Minnesota transplants of Scandinavian descent, and that understated Northern Lutheran lifestyle was familiar ground. The rhythms of the speech, the homey tales of Lake Wobegon, even the hymns they often sing are pleasant reminders of growing up. My grandparents were devotees of the cult of Lawrence Welk, but I imagine they would have been very comfortable with Garrison Keillor, too.

I also like that he's a vocal Democrat, and has spoken strongly on liberal values. He represents some of the best of the good ol' down-home American attitude. But…

But he also represents some of the worst. He was brought up in a fundamentalist home, and all too often, it shows through. For instance, here are a few examples from his stint as an advice columnist on Salon:

I've had a crush on the girl who lives downstairs since she moved in. We have gotten to know each other to some extent and are on friendly terms, and I feel we are very different people. I am an atheist/humanist and she is the youth group coordinator at a local Catholic church. She is not dogmatic or anything, but it is a stumbling block for me that we will not get along on a very basic level if a relationship should occur. I wonder if it is possible for the secular and the sacred to come together in harmony. Please help me with my conundrum.

Guy Upstairs

Dear Guy,

Keep your mitts off that nice Catholic girl, you heathen, and go bother the Unitarian girls. Life presents enough stumbling blocks in the natural course of things without you going and walking into trees. You asked for my advice and that's it. Cool it. And if you can't cool it, then start reading your Bible and taking instruction in the faith.

Yikes. That was harsh and rather one-sided—I would have advised the poor fellow to get to know the girl better, and discover if their different religious beliefs might not be more compatible than he thinks, and if he were the Catholic and she the atheist I would have said the same thing. Keillor seems to have a knee-jerk intolerance towards non-Christians. Here's another example:

I'm in my late 20s, looking forward to moving in together with my boyfriend, whom I adore, and getting on with our lives. We are committed to each other. My parents are working very hard to convince me that if I want to have kids with him (I do), we need to get married and he needs to convert to my religion. My sweetie is an atheist anarchist who has thought about his beliefs and is a very principled fellow. I don't know what to do, but my parents are putting on the full-court press and it's very upsetting. I don't want to shun my family but I adore this man and I just want everyone to get along. Can you suggest some reading material?

N.Y. Woman

Dear N.Y.,

Yes, I'd suggest the sacred texts of your religion, and I'd suggest that your sweetie read them. He can be an atheist anarchist on his own time, but if he wants to marry you, he's got to marry your family, and he should know the religion and be comfortable around it and able to hear it talked about. If you were farmers, he should know corn from dandelions, right? So get him on the ball. Atheistic anarchism is a refuge for the immature and indolent. Smoke him out.

It's strange how he notes that "he's got to marry your family", but doesn't seem to recognize that she also has to marry his, and most importantly, him. Perhaps there should be some reciprocal acknowledgment of each other's beliefs, hmmm? Would her family be comfortable around atheism? And why assume he would be uncomfortable with it? More often than not, atheists are familiar with the religious—many of us grew up with them—and it's frequently far less upsetting for us to be around Christians than for some Christians to notice our existence.

Case in point, I'm willing to overlook his casual dismissal of atheism; I'm used to it. The indifferent bigotry of the religious is something you have to get accustomed to if you are going to get by in our society. This weekend, though, Keillor published an opinion piece in the Strib that really left me cold.

I favor marriage between people whose body parts are not similar. I'm sorry, but same-sex marriage seems timid, an attempt to save on wardrobe and accessories. Marrying somebody from your team. Still, it's probably good for them to have to fight for the right to marry. My parents eloped against strong opposition from both families and they were in love for the rest of their lives and held hands and were tender on into their 80s. Of course they always had fresh strawberries.

Can you trivialize it any more, Garrison? Homosexuals only want to marry to share clothes…do heterosexuals only marry to share the rent and get that tax deduction? I think homosexuals want to fall in love for the rest of their lives and hold hands and eat strawberries together, too, and it is not our privilege to stand in their way. Keillor's parents eloped (as did mine, by the way), but despite their family opposition they could stand up as adults and get society's blessing on their independence and their partnership. Gay marriage is about granting consenting adults autonomy and recognition and public commitment to one another. There is no good cause to deny it, and pretending it is just about sharing wardrobe accessories is contemptible.

Ah, but again he reminds me of my grandparents: they were good people, loving and kind, and I cared for them very much, but my grandfather hated "the Japs" and could be spiteful and mean when he was drunk, and my grandmother warned me not to date any Negroes when I went off to college. That I loved my grandparents doesn't make their unthinking racism any less wrong.

When he's being shallow and stupid, Keillor doesn't take any half-measures. I thought this was particularly weak:

Politics is transitory, too. The big huffers and woofers come and go and the tidal changes they promise don't quite happen. Look at the Conservative Revolution: What did it change? It got us into one reckless war in Iraq and it steered the economy toward the reef, but any fool could have done that, you didn't need a conservative.

All it got us was a war and a damaged economy, but no big deal. Tell that to those parents who have lost sons and daughters in Iraq, or the unemployed and homeless who are in despair. It makes a difference. Imagine if this country had had a responsible, competent president in 2001 who, instead of launching an unjustified war and spilling blood and treasure on foreign sands, had invested in sensible domestic security and made only measured strikes against those responsible for attacks against our country. Imagine that we hadn't sunk trillions of dollars deeper in debt, and were not committed to an insane war that has damage our international reputation and committed us to years of bloody folly. Only a fool would think that having Bush and his neo-con cronies in office has made no difference in the history of our country. Bush made a difference—for the worse.

Crossposted to The American Street

Trackback url: http://pharyngula.org/index/trackback/2543/Fg9AKJsF/

Comments:
#30808: — 07/04  at  02:48 PM
The comment about same sex marriage being "timid" and "marrying someone from your team" disturbs me particularly. The implication seems to be that men and women are on different "teams"--ie are on opposite sides in a zero sum conflict. This is not the model I'd choose for my romantic relationships: I don't want to have to make my partner lose in order for me to win or vice versa. I also wonder how people facing prejudice so severe that it could result in their dying in order to achieve full civil rights can be called "timid".



#30809: — 07/04  at  03:01 PM
Right around the time Norm Coleman got elected to the Senate, Keillor made some insinuations that Coleman was gay, and that Coleman (who is married, I think) was a horrible person for it. At the time I remember thinking such gay-baiting went beyond mere partisanship, and I found it disconcerting that Keillor was the one doing it, especially since it was supposedly coming from "the left."

I know that some lefties -- including gays -- like to "out" conservatives, but they're doing it on the basis of hypocrisy. Keillor, on the other hand, seemed (and apparently is) motivated by anger and resentment. I had no idea he was such a bigot.



#30811: — 07/04  at  03:08 PM
I will never understand how those who take such principled stands against bigotry when it comes to race or class can willfully toss aside those EXACT SAME PRINCIPLES when religion enters into it.

No. That's not true. I DO understand it. Religious values are almost never genuinely principled in the first place, for only reason can discern and embrace principles.

Keillor's prejudices serve as a good example of what happens whenever values derive from some authority - whether cultural authority in general or more specifically religious authority - rather than being firmly rooted in reason. Even on the rare occasion that such values are good in many ways - such as those basically liberal and kind-hearted northern Lutherans you cite - there is nothing to prevent authority-derived values from being arbitrary or selective (unlike reason-derived values). One cannot call arbitrarily limited or selectively applied values "principles" without stretching the meaning of the word beyond its bounds.

And indeed, Keillor's general opposition to bigotry is not a matter of principle - for it only extends as far as the values of his religion, and his religion values some human beings less than others: Atheists' and homosexuals' human dignity and self-determination don't count as much, plain and simple. He'd never admit or acknowledge this way of seeing it, of course: But his capacity for cognitive dissonance does not obviate the clear evidence for deep prejudice you've found in his own words.



's avatar #30812: PZ Myers — 07/04  at  03:12 PM
There is some ugly innuendo there.
All you had to do was look at Coleman's face, that weird smile, the pleading eyes, the anger in the forehead. Or see how poorly his L.A. wife played the part of Mrs. Coleman, posing for pictures with him, standing apart, stiff, angry. Or listen to his artful dodging on the stump, his mastery of that old Republican dance, of employing some Everyguy gestures in the drive to make the world safe for the privileged. What a contrivance this guy is.
or here:
Norm got a free ride from the press. St. Paul is a small town and anybody who hangs around the St. Paul Grill knows about Norm's habits. Everyone knows that his family situation is, shall we say, very interesting, but nobody bothered to ask about it, least of all the religious people in the Republican Party. They made their peace with hypocrisy long ago. So this false knight made his way as an all-purpose feel-good candidate, standing for vaguely Republican values, supporting the president.
I agree with part of the sentiment -- Norm Coleman is a world-class sleaze -- but this is awfully thin ground and it is as if he thinks vague rumors of homosexuality are enough to diminish a candidate.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#30813: — 07/04  at  03:33 PM
not too mention how he sighs through every poem the same goddamn way as if sounding like you are about to keel over and die when you're reading is the only way to get across emotion. Keillor is the first thing i started to hate about npr. i have since decided that npr can have a donation from me as soon as they quit using people's money to pay that dumbass and Sigmund Gross.. until then, when fund-drive time comes i am content to go flip back and forth between Hannity, Rush, and Air America and wait for Phil Hendry to come on.



#30815: John Emerson — 07/04  at  03:40 PM
How straightforwardly did Keillor mean any of that to be taken? He does have a way of saying things, and a persona, that makes what he really means pretty elusive -- is he "in character"?

In the aftermath of Wellstone's death, the organized national smearing of the funeral, Coleman's victory, and Coleman's general sleaziness in practically every way imaginable, more people than Keillor were looking at Coleman's sexuality. I don't know what I think about outing gay Republicans, but considering everything else that's been going on, it's hard for me to get worked up about it.

Last of all, I don't think that atheists (such as myself) should marry Christians unless the Christians are very, very nominal ones. There are lots of easy ways for unbelievers to fake it as Christians -- my dad did it for decades right there in central Minnesota -- but someone who cares enough to proclaim himself an atheist probably is going to have trouble respecting his partner's belief. Atheism is seldom just a casual absence of belief, if that's possible, it's usually pretty oppositiona. (Or perhaps it's just me).



's avatar #30816: PZ Myers — 07/04  at  03:55 PM
True enough -- so why not suggest that he drop by her place with some Ingersoll and see if he can get her to drop the religious charade?

I don't know how seriously he say this stuff. Maybe he's just clowning around and pretending to be a fatuous idiot...but that still makes this stuff the output of a fatuous idiot.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#30817: Jamie — 07/04  at  04:03 PM
Christians are strictly admonished not to be "unequally yoked" with non-believers, so I'll give him that a Christian/ atheist marriage would be problematic beyond reconciliation, no matter how liberal a faction of Christianity or open-minded the atheist.

But this trivialization of same-sex marriage, Keilor should know better. To say that it seems "timid," either that's just bad humor, or he's being an ass. Standing against a strong tide of anti-gay culture is timid? Please. I really don't see what the big hang-up is with gay marriage. So many heteros view it as some virulent threat to their own marriage, my god what a weak marriage they must have.

The practice of classifying people on sexual behavior is relatively new anyway. The terms homo and heterosexual were first coined by Karl Kertbeny in 1868. You can't place your finger on any culture in history without touching homosexuality. To say that it's aberrant, unnatural, or threatining is demonstrably false. The only defense for anti-gay sentiment is in the Bible, and we all know the veracity of that book.

I'm glad I'm too hungover to catch Prarie Home Companion on Sundays here lately.



's avatar #30819: PZ Myers — 07/04  at  04:07 PM
Would we cut him the same slack if it were a Christian/Jewish relationship, and he told the immature and indolent Jew to start studying the New Testament?

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#30820: Jamie — 07/04  at  04:16 PM
Oooh, that's a sticky wicket, Dr. Myers. Is that the teacher gene being expressed in you?

The same would still apply. Christianity is, by nature, an exclusive religion (half the reason why it is so dangerous). I wonder, though, why an atheist would want to marry a Christian. I couldn't even consider it myself. But point taken, and yeah, people would be highly offended if it were a Jew and not an atheist. But I don't expect this country to give any slack to us godless heathens anytime soon. We're far too addicted to the notion of the cosmic babysitter to grow up and get over it.



's avatar #30821: PZ Myers — 07/04  at  04:23 PM
Although...I really didn't give a single thought to my wife's religious affiliation way back when I first started chasing her. Do people nowadays ask that cute girl at the bar what her religious beliefs are before they ask her out on a date?

I don't think that if she'd been a regular Baptist it would have made a bit of difference to me -- the kids as it is have had complete freedom to go to church if they want, so that wouldn't have been an obstacle. Of course, if she'd been the kind of religious nut who insisted on trying to convert me, that would have been a problem. I wouldn't.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#30823: Alon Levy — 07/04  at  04:25 PM
I almost can't believe that the vitriol you quote was said seriously - almost (in Israel there's worse). That's exactly the kind of person you don't want in your progressive movement. I'm all for a big tent, but that big tent should still have a sign right outside, "Xenophobes, fascists, and religious fanatics are not welcome."



#30828: coturnix — 07/04  at  05:20 PM
The initial attraction may be a pretty face or smile or a hot bod. But after 5 minutes of talking, one can figure out where the person is in regards to religion (and politics) without directly asking. It is a completely different understanding of the world, human nature, sex and everything else. NO matter what the topic of conversation, the core of the worldview will percolate to the surface. If I sensed a religious person (or a conservative, usually at the same time) I immediately lost interest. Suddenly she does not even LOOK so hot any more.

What attracted me initially to my wife was her atheism and her liberalism, as much (if not more) as her face and body. Once we realize we see the world the same way, everything became great: sex, marriage, parenting, making financial decisions... I cannot see myself dating, even less marrying a religious person - there is just no topic left to talk about without profoundly disagreeing.



's avatar #30830: PZ Myers — 07/04  at  05:27 PM
Well, yeah...but I don't think every religious person is a drooling idiot. Fundies are so far gone in brain rot that they would be grossly unattractive, but your average reverent Sunday-go-to-church type? Nah. Not a big problem.

I don't think most religious people are anything like the foaming at the mouth bibliolater. I also think that in this country there is a strong strain of opposition to organized religion among many of the people who are otherwise quite confident in the existence of god...and it's too bad Democrats haven't tried to tap into that.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#30837: John Emerson — 07/04  at  06:16 PM
Born Christians can be very easy-going, but born-agains have to make a personal commitment.

People are born Lutherans, Catholics, or Episcopalalians. Jefferson was probably on the Episcopal roles his whole life. Emmanuel Swedenborg founded his own sect (which still exists) without actually leaving the Lutheran Church.



#30840: bitchphd — 07/04  at  06:34 PM
Interesting. I've never liked Keillor or the PHC, and his recent political comments have been nice, but I've never been able to get over a feeling that Keillor is kind of smug.

Anyway, his ideas about "good Catholics" and religion in relationships are stupid. I married a good Catholic who is now an athiest; I'm a cultural Catholic whose liberalism and lack of concern for Church doctrine horrified his mom, sort of, but now I'm a lot more "Catholic" than her son is. And my boyfriend is an athiest. And frankly, none of us care two cents about each other's religion: not the husband, not the boyfriend, not me. And when our parents bring it up we make neutral-sounding noises until we can change the subject.



#30841: Constantine — 07/04  at  06:35 PM
Yikes. That was harsh and rather one-sided

First, in many cases, a person is seeking advice because he wants to hear something "harsh and rather one-sided," ("advice is what you ask for when you know the answer but wish you didn't") so such an answer isn't necessarily a bad way to go.

Next, with respect to the second letter, in Garrison's defense, he didn't say that the woman's boyfriend should convert to her religion. He said that the boyfriend should familiarize himself with it and learn to be comfortable around it. Presumably the woman has already reconciled herself to her boyfriend's anarchist atheism.



#30842: bitchphd — 07/04  at  06:36 PM
("religion, or lack thereof")



#30843: John Emerson — 07/04  at  07:26 PM
Bitch, you are a born Catholic. You could be screwing Satan and you would be just as Catholic as ever. That's cool. Even practicing Catholics only have to go to mass once a year within a month of Easter, as I've been told.

I got in trouble once by claiming that Nietzsche was a Lutheran. Well, he was. Becoming an atheist didn't change anything. It was just a higher level of Here I Stand; I Can Do No Other. Practicing Lutherans are like Catholics. Only the atheists are true Lutherans.



#30844: bitchphd — 07/04  at  07:32 PM
John, you are, of course, completely correct--which is why I call myself a Catholic ;)



#30845: — 07/04  at  07:37 PM
Jamie (#30820: — 07/04 at 04:16 PM): You write "if it were a Jew and not an atheist". As a Jew and an atheist (and most of the Jews I know are atheists (though not vice versa)), I think this is a false dichotomy.



#30847: John Emerson — 07/04  at  07:54 PM
Well, Bitch there's a proverb, "He who sups with the devil must bring a long spoon" but I don't know specifically how that would apply to screwing.

I mean, you didn't deny the screwing-Satan part.



#30848: Jamie — 07/04  at  07:57 PM
Interesting, Paul, but I was referencing PZ's earlier question there. I think he was (and correct me if I misunderstand, PZ) pointing to a different set of rules, culturally, concerning atheists and, for example, Jews. In short, that it's okay to deride, deligitimize, or ridicule atheists, but not Jews (for obvious reasons).

I do think Coturnix hit the nail on the head here. Personally, I try to get a handle on someone's religious beliefs very very early on, and if I perceive them to be a Bible thumper of any stripe, I'm quickly disinterested. But, as Coturnix accurately points out, this does not require an inquisition into someone's specific theology (or lack thereof).

Importantly, the fact that this can be done shows the problem, namely that it's not just a matter of religious belief. It is a practical problem. Religion plays an integral role in how one views relationships, family, sex, politics, and all kinds of other things. So, it is important, and insofar as I can see, if you're an atheist, you're a hell of a lot better off dating someone of similar belief (exception for Hindus, cause if you are going to invent gods, may as well invent cool ones).



#30849: Jamie — 07/04  at  08:00 PM
Uh, I should have inverted that comparison. It's not okay to delegitimize Jewish folks, but it's okay to do the same against atheists. Crap. See, this right here is indicative of the sensitive religion gets. It's a holiday. I've had beers. TIme to go play with fireworks!!!

Heh. My spam word is "south." Heh. We get stupid on the holidays down here . . .



#30850: coturnix — 07/04  at  08:07 PM
Perhaps I am oversensitized. After growing up for 25 years among all atheists before moving to the USA where I encountered the religious peole, I find religious people as foreign as another species, and their strange notions about everything are obvious no matter what they talk about. Do I have a supersensitive religion-radar?



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