Pharyngula

Pharyngula has moved to http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/

Monday, July 12, 2004

God Rocks!

Remember that creationist book that was being sold by the National Park Service, the one titled Grand Canyon: a Different View? There are now some excerpts online. It's ghastly.

Fossils tell a story, but the story we “read” depends on the “glasses” we are wearing when we do the examination. If we wear our evolutionary glasses, we will get one story. But if we have on our biblical glasses, which allow us to see biblical truth, we will get a very different story. So what kind of story do fossils tell and why is it significant? The first and most significant issue is that fossils represent death! With our biblical glasses on, death comes into the world as the result of man’s sin against God. If fossils are in layers millions of years old, then how do we account for all the death, disease, and destruction found in the fossil record if those fossils were formed before the Fall? Genesis 3:18 says that thorns and thistles were a direct consequence of sin. How do we account for the fossils of thorns found deep within the geologic record if they are a result of man’s sin? If God declared the world very good, which He did at the end of the creation week, could that have included such things as cancer and arthritis, which we also find in the fossil record? As Dr. Duane Gish’s book title says, Evolution: The Fossils STILL Say No!

That's remarkably incoherent, but it seems to be arguing that 1) fossils are dead, 2) Genesis describes how death came into the world, 3) therefore the Bible is true.

I haven't quite puzzled out the logic of the last bit. 1) The fossil record includes evidence of thorns, cancer, and arthritis. 2) Would God have put such things in a good world? 3) Duane Gish says the fossils say "No!". It kinda leave the question of accounting for the fossils hanging, don't you think? Are they arguing that the fossil evidences doesn't exist, or less likely, that the Bible account must therefore be false? 'Cause that's how I interpret it.

(via Bookslut)


Trackback url: http://pharyngula.org/index/trackback/920/yCoJ6d1m/

Comments:
#4362: — 07/12  at  01:32 PM
Seems to "make sense" to me. God makes death and disease after the Fall of Adam and Eve, the fossils show death and disease, therefore the fossils are from after the Fall. Simple, no?



#4364: — 07/12  at  01:36 PM
I think your line of reasoning is backwards--we're wearing our Bible glasses, remember. So it goes (1) The Bible is correct; (2) Fossils of dead things (especially diseased dead things) must actually have been created after our precursors got themselves kicked out of Eden. (3) Therefore, they can only be a few thousand years old. Now, the fossils aren't actual evidence of anything, because they contradict what we already know to be the truth. They're, you know, puzzles. Jesus Puzzles. To delight the faithful after a hard day of labor and suffering. They were made back when the only entertainment we had was sinful stuff like drinkin' and watchin' pretty girls dance in a lascivious manner.



#4368: Andrew — 07/12  at  02:58 PM
Man, I read that several times and it still makes no sense whatsoever. What a load of nonsense.



#4370: — 07/12  at  03:17 PM
Doesn't make much sense to me. Then again, not much does, ever since I had that bible Lasik surgery....



#4371: — 07/12  at  03:17 PM
I interpret it as Megan does, though I'd write it slightly differently: 1) the bible is correct; 2) if fossils are really millions of years old, that would imply there was death (and disease) long before our precursors were booted out of Eden some 6000 years ago; 3) therefore, fossils can't be millions of years old, and in fact can't be older than 6000 or so years.

Though I wonder at the hubris of these people, suggesting their god wouldn't find cancer and arthritis to be "very good". How do they know?



#4372: — 07/12  at  03:22 PM
As for fossils talking, I might have expected somebody to complain about that ("the fossils STILL say no!"). Having taken a paleontology class last spring, I personally experienced talking fossils. They're especially chatty when you're taking a specimen-identification exam on half a night's sleep, without enough study. They whisper with glee, "you can't remember what I am! Bwahahaha!"



#4380: — 07/12  at  05:12 PM
Amazing! You guys approach your science the same way? Pick a worst examplar and base a hypothesis in that? Too easy.

Debates are won when they are well expressed for right or wrong.

It sounds like a poorly written tract, and leave it at that.

Better than debating [rather debasing] yourselves in this kind of blather, find an accademic creationist who does work in paleo, geo, bio areas and have them write an alternate text for class rooms with the aid of someone versed in ancient language studies and comparative literature.

Science will advance as its temper is hardened by challenges and competition from worthy ideas. So find worthy opponents to be your proponents.



#4382: — 07/12  at  05:56 PM
One problem, David: there doesn't seem to be such a creature. It's rather difficult to believe in creationism when you're faced with evidence that debunks it every day. It'd certainly be an interesting dichotomy, but I imagine it'd lead to your brains dribbling out of your ears. As of yet, the Christian creation myth has failed to provide any evidence that would make it more suited to the class room than the creation myths of any other religion.

Evolution is challenged constantly--or, rather, the various individual components of it are, and the overarching theory has not been found wanting. A flawed hypothesis is quickly ripped to shreds; old theories are superceded by more accurate ones. Evolution has only become more firmly supported as its various aspects have been challenged and refined. "Worthy opponents" come not from the groundless rhetoric of creationists, but from scientific research.



's avatar #4385: PZ Myers — 07/12  at  06:57 PM
Yes, Mr Halliwill. Please name just one of these better creationist geologists. Like Megan says, they don't seem to exist: young earth creationism and geology are completely incompatible.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#4395: — 07/12  at  11:18 PM
Well, Mr. Myers deleting my posted response hardly presents your blog as a worthy venue for discussion.

Since I do know many geologists who are Christians I can presume that geology and creation are not incompatible. None of their minds have been reduced to dribbling from their ears yet.

Being neither a “creationist” nor a “geologist” it surprises me how such a learned group could have avoided using Google to actually find some. rather than jsut strolling in unlike a single sniper but more like an armed ambush to your local church group in order to sharpen your skills for sport.

Do you search for fossils using the iChing? Or a dart board?

But there must be a few here at Wheaton

Probably some good reasources here Lord I Believe

And maybe here in creation

And maybe here in space and time

I could go one and on it looks like

Stephen Hawking's bestseller A Brief History of Time is the most popular book about cosmology ever written. The questions cosmology addresses are scientifically and theologically profound. Hawking's book covers both of these implications. — Dr. Henry "Fritz" Schaefer III

Dr. "Fritz" Schaefer is the Graham Perdue Professor of Chemistry and the director of the Center for Computational Quantum Chemistry at the University of Georgia. He has been nominated for the Nobel Prize and was recently cited as the third most quoted chemist in the world. "The significance and joy in my science comes in the occasional moments of discovering something new and saying to myself, `So that's how God did it!' My goal is to understand a little corner of God's plan." -U.S. News & World Report, Dec. 23, 1991.

I hope this is helpful. God bless.



's avatar #4396: PZ Myers — 07/12  at  11:34 PM
I have deleted nothing. Unless it's mindless commercial spam, I am not going to censor anyone here, and the insinuation that I have is offensive.

Your links are as nonsensical as the book I quoted at the top of this page. There is no obstacle to being a Christian and a geologist; however, the absurd views of young earth creationists are not compatible in any way with the evidence.

Speaking of not making an effort to look at a source, take a look at this article about Schaefer. He's a fraud who knows nothing about evolution. And the claim that he has been nominated for a Nobel is both meaningless and unfounded.

And no, I'm not interested in hounding a church group to learn about geology. That would be like pestering a preschool art class for the same—they are unlikely to have any competence in the subject.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#4397: — 07/13  at  12:36 AM
My buddha glasses tell me that the fossils as well as all explanations of them are illusions. None of it exists, end of controversy.
By the way, where are the books that explain the fossils through flying saucer or hindu or muslim or voodoo or shinto or native american ghost dancer or jain or jewish or etc., etc., etc. "glasses" (glasses? try preconcieved silly superstition blindfold)? Why does just one creation fairytale get to pretend like it`s a serious alternative to serious truth searching? Why not give all of them equal time?
Oh, that´s right, their stories of creation are just ridiculous, things only a fool could give any credence to, whereas the Bible story is wonderfully sophisticated and logical and lacks any form of childish primitive superstition.



's avatar #4399: Ben — 07/13  at  02:48 AM
Being neither a “creationist” nor a “geologist” it surprises me how such a learned group could have avoided using Google to actually find some.

Why don't you use the search feature in this site and browse through the archives? It won't take you long to discover that this is by no means Dr Myers' first or most comprehensive encounter with creationist gibberish. Then you can stop by Panda's Thumb and go from there. By that time you'll have a far more comprehensive judgment of whether or not you actually have anything relevant to contribute, because at the moment you're not even wrong.

Hope this is helpful. May the Force be with you.

"The great trouble is that the preachers get the children from six to seven years of age and then it is almost impossible to do anything with them." --Thomas Edison.



#4423: — 07/13  at  01:45 PM
JC. — You are free in America to make a pitch to present any curriculum you wish. If you think they have merit you should look into them and hold them up to that which you know to be factual and see if they recommend themselves to you for further consideration. But, you should also do due diligence in you Buddhism, to understand its origins in Hindu stories (900 million gods) and their debt to ancient Persia. It makes a difference from where you get your glasses.

Also, with regards to the creation as told in the text of Genesis text they are the same for both Jews and Christians.

If the “creationists” are telling a different story then I would suggest we gather all the “canards” and the “strawmen” that we can find and put them in a barn and burn them.



#4424: — 07/13  at  02:02 PM
PZ— Your links are as nonsensical as the book I quoted at the top of this page.
Links are just links.

Are the absurd views of young earth creationists one and the same with Judeo/Christian beliefs? Or are the absurd views of young earth creationists also not compatible in any way with the [biblical] evidence.[?] And yes, text can be considered evidence.

He's a fraud who knows nothing about evolution.
Based on what?? That he doesn’t spend enough time in one particular conference according to one student. The quantity of his publications? That he quoted a respectable Media publication’s blurb about himself? These are not enough to dismiss his cognitive abilities nor his credentials.

I'm not interested in hounding a church group
vs.
Creationists, and Melquist was no exception, usually lecture to church groups; there's no way a lone evolutionist can be a good guy in such a situation. No matter what, you're going to come across as an isolated sniper. Don't stand for it—spread the word to your peers, too. —PZ Myers



#4425: — 07/13  at  02:10 PM
My apologies for inquiring about my missing post also showed up missing. I had replied to Megan. Somehow our macs aren’t also talking to one another. I think the first one was a log in error on my part. I appreciate your commitment to noncensuring the discussions. Some blogs do reserve the right to censure. Not offense meant, none taken.

Just curious, do you ever find two roe that are identical?
Or are they all as individual as snowflakes? and how do they taste?



's avatar #4427: PZ Myers — 07/13  at  02:58 PM
No, creationist views are not synonymous with Christian views. Creationism is not compatible with science. Christianity can be.

Schaefer is a fraud based on his expressed opinions about evolution. They are consistently misinformed and frankly, ridiculous. I don't care how many publications he has; what matters is what he says.

My encounter with Melquist was on my university campus. As I said, I'm not interested in hounding people at church.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#4429: Andrew — 07/13  at  03:11 PM
Finally someone has said it: Creationism is not compatible with science. Christianity can be.

One of the things that drives me nuts is when good religions get hijacked by people spouting indefensible nonsense. And that's what Creationists are doing. I'm glad that Dr Myers, despite not being Christian himself, realizes that not all Christians are Creationists, in fact probably only a small minority are, they're just the noisy ones. There are lots of Christian scientists, doctors etc who understand that myths/allegories are indeed myths/allegories.

Oh, and text is so not evidence. Text which quotes actual scientific research is just reporting evidence (the research) and good scientific research should welcome scientific challenge.



's avatar #4430: PZ Myers — 07/13  at  04:17 PM
Whaddaya mean, "finally"? Me and the gang at the Panda's Thumb have only said it a zillion kajillion times, plus two.

Our beef is only with stupid literal-minded dingleberries who insist the bible is a scientific text and practice pathologically ignorant crap that perpetuates superstition. Some of us might think that includes all of religion, but really, there are lots of evolutionists who go to church.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#4434: — 07/13  at  04:45 PM
PZ —

with Melquist was on my university campus<i> you can see how I misunderstood.

<i>what matters is what he says
point taken, and agreed. But, at Panda’s thumb it was a reference to quantity impacting quality w/o reference to the contents of the documents. Am I will assume that you are familiar in depth with them?

...

Andrew—

Finally someone has said it: Creationism is not compatible with science. Christianity can be. Well it didn’t take so long... I only found this blog a few days ago.

Oh, and text is so not evidence. Most certainly text <em>can be </e> evidence. Two examples: 1). When it is submitted and entered as such in a court of law; And 2). When text is historical evidence of an chronological event. 3). If the text is the output of the actual scientific research (recordings, observational notes, journal entries, etc.)

From observing one ID proponents comments today, all I have time for, it seems that yes indeed by aligning or as you say hijackingsome of the gravy of Judeo-Christiantiy, without the meat they naturally have no leg to stand on, or are keeping themselves busy hopping from one leg to another.

A problem they will have if they try to imagine that they know all God has done, how he does it, and when and where he is or is not doing it.

Whereas a Judeo-Christian stance might better be expressed as science poses no threat to God. Science in its infancy has already greatly enhanced our understanding of his creation. And we look forward to deeper and greater things as we all share both new scientific discoveries, and those which have been forgotten and that new investigations might uncover.

Just wishing there were a round table where this could be discussed.

Oh, yeah, add to myths and allegories: poetic language, provocations, and humor. Which all exceot for myths can be taken as true, whereas myths should be defined as distortions of truth.



's avatar #4435: PZ Myers — 07/13  at  04:55 PM
Did you actually read Cartwright's article on PT? The core of it is a point-by-point dissection of three "concerns" Schaefer has expressed about evolution...all of them phony and trivial, the kind of thing anyone who was actually even dimly knowledgeable about evolutionary biology would know to be red herrings.

Mark Perakh did bring up the ludicrous quantity of Schaefer's articles in a comment, but that was not the point of Reed's article. Nor did Perakh suggest that the articles were poor in quality: only that with that number, it's clear that Schaefer was getting his name tagged onto articles with which he'd had little actual involvement.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#4438: — 07/13  at  06:43 PM
was getting his name tagged onto articles with which he'd had little actual involvement This is endemic to research. And makes it hard to find a peer review group which knows enough about the materials and is not already invested in the research.

I know medical research at the top of their field who have gotten calls out of the blue from somone who had once done something in the office now vacated by, and insisted on having their name attached to the journal article. The place to call foul would be in the journals.

I questioned how many of Schaefer’s article were actually scientific jouranl articles. It is quite easy to write that often, one needn’t presume them all to be submitted for peer review right? They could be articles on lttle league baseball from a spectator’s point of view for all we know.

No, I didn’t read Cartwright. PT had enough bashing and banging. I did read Schaefer on Hawking. That is a book review, and it wasn’t bad. It wasn’t great either, but at least now I am very interested in reading Hawking.

I had also post from page 2 of the article, as he does list a number of Hawking’s peers who are scientists and christians.

Again I cannot vet the quality of their scientific research or published works. But, in contacting any number of these folks one might be able to gather a round table which could put an end to the strawmen and canards.

I should hope.

This sounds like the dog ate my homework, but I think IE is not recognizing me as automatically signing in when I return. I am now adapting my behavior, closer inspection may reviel cosmic changes in my DNA.



's avatar #4439: PZ Myers — 07/13  at  06:57 PM
This is endemic to research

Um, what? It happens, I know. It is considered unethical.

It is not easy to write publishable, peer-reviewed articles at the rate of one a week if you are actually doing any of the work behind them. We presume there was some actual research going on, you know.

It is not considered kosher to count your articles on little league baseball as part of your scientific output.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



Page 1 of 1 pages

Next entry: DEMOCRATS ARE GODLESS HEATHEN ATHEIST BALLET-DANCERS WHO WANT TO KILL YOUR BABIES!

Previous entry: My day in the dog suit

<< Back to main

Info

email PZ Myers
Search
Archives
UMM—America's best public liberal arts college