#16188: — 02/16  at  02:49 PM
I was a bit surprised to learn on Horowitz's website that the Nobel Pease Prize is a left-winged award. Who would have tought that.

I seem that anyone who is not Horowitz's brand of right-winged (the facist kind), is labeled a part of the left-winged Network.

Idiot. But a dangerous one.

#16190: — 02/16  at  02:54 PM
Anyway, it's just a pale immitation of Media Transparency, which documents the money-flow between organzations, individuals and foundations on the right.

See for example their entry on David Horowitz.

#16191: — 02/16  at  03:13 PM
Another link - Al Franken commenting on Horowitz (mp3)

#16193: paperwight — 02/16  at  03:45 PM
This is one of the few areas where the "broken window" theory works. If the liberals in the US had popped the Republicans in the nose every time the Republicans spew this kind of vile calumny, we'd see a lot less of it.

We're well past that point now, and we're going to have a long hard uphill climb to take the discourse back from the Revanchist John Birch Fundetarians who took over the Republican Party.

#16194: — 02/16  at  04:21 PM
It is very difficult for me to imagine a workable solution for ridding this country (planet) of the Rethuglican Plague. Each time I think of something palpable and effective, the situation always seems to lapse into some recursive spiral downward... towards Hell, I presume?

Worst of all, I can't foresee how the conflict (secular vs. religious state; democracy vs. intolerance) will end without some sort of dramatic event. While I'm certainly not proposing violence (although I may be prophesying it) - can anyone see a step-wise (i.e. grass roots) path towards greener pastures?

Not to sound desperate, but one has to wonder whether it is time to refrain from using "proper etiquette" in these circumstances.

As it stands...

...we're damned if we do, and damned if we don't.

Right?

#16195: — 02/16  at  04:26 PM
Reminds me of a story I heard last fall from an old friend (just retired) who had worked for Nixon's campaign in 1960. He quit the party within a year, after going to a Young Republican event where the right wingers shouted a moderate Republican governor off the stage. He works for the NDP now (that's our democratic socialist party in Canada-- i.e. the traitor/communist/... well, I guess there're no words bad enough for them in right wing talk...).

#16197: DarkSyde — 02/16  at  04:40 PM
Yeap PZ. These thugs are lying, murdering, barbaric, low life scum. Treating them as if they're normal human beings with a decent set of values merely lends them an air of respectability, just like it does when you engage in a polite debate with a Ku Klux Klan freak. That's over, at least for me. I'll call a scumbag a scumbag when I see a scumbag.

#16199: — 02/16  at  04:53 PM
The rightwingers have taken up the mantle of the John Birch society, but they have turned their dull wits toward some of the few decent people in politics these days (excluding only Carter because he isn't in politics these days). Brit Hume is to journalism as Ronald McDonald is to Shakespeare. He was a Microsoft apologist when the government went weakly after MS for their monopolistic behavior. They may be truly deranged. Maybe a constant diet of Rush Limbaugh does that.

#16207: norbizness — 02/16  at  05:59 PM
Right now, I can't decide whether to equate Horowitz's laughable site with some sort of Hollywood Squares (suggested by Roxannne), think of it as some sort of Burns Nuclear Power Plant organizational chart (with myself just below inanimate carbon rod in terms of importance), or an attempt to create some sort of eHarmony for leftists (I am compatible on 25 levels with Katrina vanden Heuvel? Sweet!).

#16208: Chris Clarke — 02/16  at  06:03 PM

I have no idea what to do about this, though. How should one respond when one’s opposition reveals themselves to by a gang of lying thugs? What is the proper etiquette when one discovers that one has been invited to be guest of honor at an auto-da-fe?

My response is to demand my rightful place on his damn list. King Christian tactics and all, you know?

#16210: Stephen Stralka — 02/16  at  06:29 PM
I do think it’s useful to try to understand how these lunatics think. They may be utterly delusional, but their delusions do fit together into some kind of coherent pattern.

Basically, these people want 9/11 to be equivalent to Pearl Harbor, and they want the war on terror to be WWII. They see the US as being locked in an apocalyptic struggle for its very existence against an implacable foe. A lot of them seem to genuinely believe that the dreaded Islamofascists are the greatest threat we’ve ever faced. They are also incapable of making distinctions between all those dangerous people lurking over there in the Middle East, so the idea that invading Iraq had anything to do with Al Qaeda makes perfect sense to them.

Given all this, then, the delusional venom starts to make sense. To the wingnuts, opposing the invasion of Iraq, for instance, is exactly equivalent to not wanting to strike back at Japan after Pearl Harbor, or not wanting to fight the Nazis. As far as I can tell, they really believe this, and that’s why they think anyone who shows insufficient enthusiasm for Bush’s imperialist aggression is so despicable.

What to do about it is another question, of course. They’ve got so many people so brainwashed that they’ll dismiss any news story that makes Bush look bad as just another deception put out by the liberal media. I would like to think that continuing to tell the truth would have some effect, though. Some of these delusions are so preposterous that it’s hard to imagine that you couldn’t get at least a slim majority of the American people to see through them.

The Islamofascist threat, for instance? Yeah, they can do an awful lot of damage, as they’ve shown, but there is zero chance of them actually destroying or taking over the United States. Christ, they don’t even control any countries over there. They’re basically just a bunch of maniacs hiding in caves. Extremely dangerous maniacs, to be sure, but hardly a threat to our continued existence. Is the right wing noise machine really so powerful that a majority of Americans can’t see that?

The scary thing is, I don't know the answer to that.

#16216: — 02/16  at  07:11 PM
I'd certainly be highly upset about all this talk about Jimmy Carter if no one had ever said a nasty thing or two about Bush. Hey, wait a minute...

FYI, a few nitwits made harassing calls to Rindhocket's office in the Twin Cities today, which is as useless as it is nasty to the secretary that had to take the calls. I doubt the secretary at the UM-Morris biology department would like that sort of thing either.

#16218: DarkSyde — 02/16  at  07:31 PM
I really don't care how they think. They're scum, they're trash. They're anti-American, anti-freedom, anti-morality. In fact pretty much anything you can think of that's worth a shit, these low lives oppose. They worship a deity that advocates rape, murder, torture, and genocide. And they will debate with anyone at great length why that sick twsited behavior is the greatest moral good mankind can possobly hope to aspire to!

Fuck em. Get rid of them. Understanding why they're sick doesn't do any good. Kick the trash to the curb. I don't give a shit how the trash thinks or why it's so deranged. I care about isolating that scum from decent people and preventing their infection from spreading.

#16219: — 02/16  at  07:37 PM
FWIW, the following link takes you to a news item that's far more 'beyond the pale' than anything Rindhocket's said:

http://www.nathannewman.org/laborblog/archive/002197.shtml

#16220: — 02/16  at  07:50 PM
You know, DarkSyde, that's exactly how they talk about you.

Seriously: I find the rabidly right-wing mentality frightening, but the most frightening aspect of it is how it is spreading. This isn't (anymore, at least) just a few thousand fanatics holed up with their militias. These are lots and lots and lots of normal people saying these sorts of things -- our neighbors, people that we must try to figure out how to reach. We don't need to change everyone's mind, but we have to change some. Dismissing everyone who thinks this way as "scum", while it may be emotionally satisfying, is extremely counterproductive.

And, no: I don't know for sure how to eliminate this fanatical sort of thinking. But I do know that the first step has to be understanding the psychology that roots it. And ignoring the people who say these sorts of things sure hasn't worked for us very well in the last decade or so, has it?

#16221: Rana — 02/16  at  07:55 PM
You know, I don't buy the notion that these people are stupid or deluded. I think they know _exactly_ what they are doing, and that they are doing it because (a) they know they are not going to be called on it and (b) the average person isn't going to waste energy trying to process their words -- either the listener/reader agrees, and is pleased, or is too busy caring about other things and shrugs these words off -- if they hear them.

Frustratingly, I think that the only way these days to deal with this is to be loudly, and clearly, and bluntly, offended when they spew stuff like this. That way it can't serve as comfort to those who agree (because they can't live in a happy little bubble if the people who disagree are too loud to ignore) and it forces the people who'd just shrug off the crap to notice that the crap really can't be ignored.

Here's a small-scale example: Let's say you're at a party, and there's some loud-mouth bigot going around saying rude, obnoxious things about other guests.

In scene one, some of the people who are offended leave quietly, perhaps muttering unhappily among themselves, leaving behind the bigot (who crows about having scared them away), the bigot's supporters (who'd say the same things but are too timid to do so openly), and a group of people who are glad that the victims left (because it was uncomfortable and now they can go back to having a fun time).

In scene two, some of the guests call the bigot on his rudeness, and are bluntly and clearly unwilling to listen to his crap. Either the bigot will shut up, and the party will continue, or it will be the bigot (and perhaps his supporters) who slink away muttering. And the party continues.

Which scene would you rather be in, if you're not a bigot?

#16224: PZ Myers — 02/16  at  08:13 PM
Unfortunately, we've been muttering and withdrawing from the loudmouths for too long, and now we've got a whole pack of vicious boors peeing on the furniture and burning our books in the fireplace. I think we need to do more than chew out a few slobs -- we need to get our own group together to go kick some butts out onto the lawn.

#16227: — 02/16  at  08:46 PM
Well PZ, you're just the prof to do it! (Note: professors are a lot meaner, sneaker, and smarter than you may think. Just ask PZ's genetics class if you don't believe me... ;=)

#16228: PZ Myers — 02/16  at  08:48 PM
They might agree with "meaner", but I hope not "sneakier" -- I've been warning them since day 1 that my exams are brutal.

#16230: — 02/16  at  09:10 PM
Sounds like they are creating theodicy to me. They can't blame themselves for the evil currently happening in the world so they project the cause onto those who disagree with them. I think Rana and PZ are right we are letting them get away with this kind of behavior. They are acting like any animal and pushing the boundries to see what they can get away with and the sooner they get called on it the qicker they will stop. I also liked Chris Clarke's suggestion. I went to Horowitz's site and asked to be put on the list, left a message saying I was a liberal, read banned books and believed in evolution. Signed up for their newsleter and evertime I get one I am going to reply with "put me on your list"
PZ I think its been a long time since you were a student. All students know that professors may threaten them with quizes from day one, but to actually give a quiz - thats just sneaky!

Trackback: Capo Di Tutti Capi Tracked on: Happy Furry Puppy Story Time with Norbizness (217.160.226.4) at 2005 02 16 22:24:26
Well played, old bean douchebag! It pains me to say that the interlocking series of nefarious no-goodniks The Left has placed into positions of power in academia, the media, the entertainment industry, politics, and grass roots organizations... all from...

#16236: Steve Bates — 02/16  at  11:12 PM
Thanks for the heads-up, PZ. I say we call them on this kind of liberal-bashing (not that Carter was really a liberal) every single time, no exceptions. BTW, one of your comments made the banner quote on my site tonight. You can probably guess which one.

#16240: tim gueguen — 02/17  at  12:41 AM
Its amazing they're still obsessed with Jane Fonda. The woman barely has a profile that rises above water anymore.

#16244: — 02/17  at  03:41 AM
Wow. Just when you think these loons can't get any more crazy and scary, they surprise you yet again. The "Network" site seems a classic example of "Winger Projection" - i.e. they accuse others of doing what they are doing themselves. Thus, intelligent design advocates accuse scientists of being dogmatic and close-minded, Right Wing hacks accuse their opponents of being part of a large well funded structure that hates America etc. etc.

The problem is, of course, how do we strike back? These guys have no shame, so pointing out their follies only provokes a counter attack - witness the recent snarling over Gannon's "outing". Constant pressure does seem to be doing some good - and if we are consistently firm and clear and reasonable in pushing our point of view, we should attract some of the better sort to our side - but how are we going to start doing some serious damage to these guys?

#16249: Republic of Palau — 02/17  at  06:40 AM
Horowitz has form with this sort of thing. Students for Academic Freedom was set up to gather ammunition for the Republicans to allege liberal bias in colleges and schools. So far, so unexceptional for the genre. There's lots of these carefully-laid lures by Republican party operatives and their characteristics are quite similar. But when you start to read the complaints en masse it takes on a much more sinister aspect. For example:

"St. Louis University Sunday, February 13, 2005
Required Readings, Introduced Controversial Material, Mocked
Political/Religious Figures, Conducted Political Activities, Other, Conducts
one-sided lectures in class
SociologyProfessor : Dr. C.M. Terry and Dr. Shockey
Class : Introduction to Sociology

University of Wisconsin-MadisonFriday, February 11, 2005
Required Readings, Singled Out, Introduced Controversial Material,
Forced Students, Biased Grading,
Political Science
Professor : Scott Straus
Class : Politics of Human Rights

University of Georgia Friday, February 11, 2005
Required Readings, Mocked Political/Religious Figures, Conducted
Political Activities, University Funds,
Political Science
Professor : Charles Bullock"

What's chilling is that these students obviously seem to think that this is some sort of official complaint site and that something actually will happen to the academics they complain about, in terms of discipline. The mindset that that exposes is quite terrifying, and that these young people have been trained by adults to think this way, that people who don't agree with them have no rights and should be punished. This belief system isn't just fertile ground for fascism, it is the very prerequisite for it.

There is also the aspect of the list in itself. What a handy little compendium of accused subversives, all neatly laid out with times and dates and details, how very efficient. How very official. The Patriot Act is still in force, and Bush is trying to bull through sweeping extensions to its current scope right now.

"As some day it may happen that a victim must be found,
I've got a little list--I've got a little list
Of society offenders who might well be underground,
And who never would be missed--who never would be missed!"