Pharyngula

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Sunday, August 14, 2005

Has HNN no standards?

At a time when The Panda's Thumb, as well as a few commenters here, are disparaging those awful militant and ideological atheists who want to crush the dreams of sweet little old Christian ladies, we turn to the History News Network to hear the voice of reason.

Uh-oh. Screwed again. They've published a piece of hackwork from some conservative religious looney working in one of those right-wing think-tanks.

It is commonplace these days for some journalists and many intellectuals to blame religion for much of the worlds ills. Look at foreign affairs, they say. The Muslim fanatics blowing themselves and others to bits really think they’re going to rewarded in heaven with 40 virgins. Those cowboys and Zionists who are running American foreign policy and endangering the world think they are doing the will of the God. At home, Catholics and others are at work to prevent the research necessary to cure many diseases. Right-wing evangelicals constantly plot to impose their moral restrictions on others. It is only the sober, educated rationalists, we are told, who can see realities beyond the superstitions and bring justice and truth to a world hungering for peace and prosperity. Rid the globe of religion and you free the human mind, at last, to create the wonders of which it is capable.

He's off to a good start; those first bits about religious fanatics, anti-science ignoramuses, and sanctimonious bluenoses are definitely true, but he succumbs to some hyperbole at the end. Getting rid of religion isn't a panacea—it means we will have disposed of just one shackle.

This is the dogma of the 18th century Enlightenment, of course, later embraced by Marxists who murdered clergy and destroyed churches whenever the opportunity arose. This secular dogma lives still, especially among leftist intellectuals and media moguls who often see themselves as the high priests of knowledge and learning. Woven into their arguments are almost always appeals to end definitions of right and wrong, a move that has the advantage of destroying all moral inhibitions and sanctions. Free sex for a free people.

Oh, those Marxists. The religious sure are glad to have them to kick around, but let me return to that later.

Personally, I'm a little bit miffed about this frequent assertion that atheists are just that way because they want free sex. I'm an atheist, and I never got to take advantage of all that free lovin' hedonism; all of the atheists I know seem to live rather ordinary, conventional lives. I got married, have been faithful ever since, have had three atheist children who haven't bothered to shoot up their school or muck up their lives with drugs, and as far as I know, my freethinker wife hasn't been participating in any Black Masses behind my back. Is it all the other atheists who have wild and degenerate private lives?

Since the Second World War, Western Europe has become increasingly secular. After 1960, Easter services in the Church of England attracted only two percent of the British people. By the 1990s, only 40 percent of marriages in England and Wales were solemnized in a church. Mass attendance in France has fallen to six percent on a given Sunday. Spain has endorsed homosexual marriage. The Dutch are almost wholly secular people. And so on. Now that Christianity is disappearing, European peoples should be awaiting the dawn of reason and happiness. If it only weren’t for those religious crazies and Texas loonies who keep believing they are doing the will of God.

I don't quite get his point. OK, so Europeans aren't going to church much, they are dispensing with priestly sanctioning of their marriages, and they're tolerant of homosexuals…is this something bad? Have hideous things been happening over there as a consequence? It looks to me like they are mostly at peace, working out old difficulties to form a European Union.

Several things are wrong with this hoary and naive approach to truth. In the first place, there is no such thing as a purely secular person. The innate passion for religion can never be wholly suppressed. Although it wasn’t G. K. Chesterton who said it, this venerable thought rings true: "When men stop believing in God, they don’t believe in nothing. They believe in anything.”

The objects of human worship know no limit. On the crudest level, there are the millions who revere athletes,

Texas small towns: hotbeds of atheism.

movie and television stars,

Damn you, Oprah!

rock stars,

Oh, yeah. Creed.

automobiles,

All those NASCAR fans? Unrepentant atheists, every one.

pornography,

Uh, OK. Guilty. I do like my squid. And of course, no Christian has ever looked at pornography.

drugs,

Rush Limbaugh is one of us? Who knew?

and gambling.

Paging Bill Bennett…

On a slightly higher level, millions bow to race, the nation, status, wealth, political parties, art forms, clubs, cities, and colleges. Millions put their faith in horoscopes, cults, gurus, fads, and diets.

Christians and Moslems and Jews, however, are uninterested in all of these things.

On its most intellectual level, the most common form of worship by the avowed secularist is found in the mirror, and many a professor has been able to smile throughout life by pondering its reflection.

He's never seen me, or he'd know mirrors aren't something I relish.

None of this makes any sense. He seems to be trying to argue that atheists all have this huge void in their life that they fill with his laundry list of fads and fashions, but there is no linkage. Those are all things that the religious favor, and some at least perhaps more than we atheists do.

Secondly, there is no such single, objective thing as "reason."That we have rational powers cannot be denied, of course, but the sad truth is that in many areas of life, especially the ethical and moral, "reason"tends to tell us what we want to hear. This is the huge flaw in the historical works of Herbert J. Muller, beginning with the impressive Uses of the Past. Muller thought that all "reasonable"people, throughout history, would naturally see things in the same way, and that superstition and ignorance were responsible for blocking the consensus. Education is vital, of course, as is reason. But human beings and history aren’t as simply understood as Muller thought.

OK, hold it. Mr Reeves, sober up before you write. This is just incoherent nonsense. I know relativism is all the rage among conservatives, but applying it to reason is going too far. I think you're just saying that because it's what you want to hear.

Although your disavowal of reason does help explain how you could write this piece.

Thirdly, a life without divine inspiration, consolation, and hope often leads to rage and despair rather than happiness. I have experienced this myself and know that many others have also. Paul Johnson and Malcom Muggeridge have written on this theme at length. The Imitation of Christ by Thomas a Kempis examined the issue carefully centuries ago. St. Paul understood the matter fully.

Oh, yes, the personal anecdotes of Christians about the unhappiness of atheists are very convincing. I am quite happy and satisfied with my atheism, and certainly don't want to start believing a set of lies because some bland theologian likes his delusions.

Although it is true that Paul Hill and Eric Rudolph seem to have derived some significant satisfaction from their faith, which excused their own rather fluid morality.

Fourthly, what are the fruits of militant secularism? Are the lives of Robespierre, Lenin, Stalin, and Mao not instructive? And have we no personal knowledge of the utter misery that has plagued friends who mistakenly thought they could live happy and completely secular lives? As for wholly secular states, Oz Guinness, writing in the Wilson Quarterly (Spring 2005) observed, "It’s a simple fact…that, contrary to the current scapegoating of religion, more people were slaughtered during the 20th century under secularist regimes, led by secularist intellectuals, and in the name of secularist ideologies, than in all the religious persecutions in Western history."Read that again, slowly.

Yes, very slowly. And it's OK if you move your lips.

Those were totalitarian states. Yeah, those kinds of regimes do ghastly things to their people, whether they are avowedly atheist or fervently religious.

Reeves is ignoring the real lesson of history: religion is not a moral force, nor is the absence of religion. The Inquisition tortured and killed people, not because they were Catholic, but because they were absolutely certain they were right (something that their Catholicism contributed to) and were willing to dehumanize those they thought were not sufficiently orthodox. North Korea is suffering under a cult of personality where the state has put absolute trust in a madman. Neither one shows that religion or atheism have the moral high ground, but instead simply demonstrate that bad people will do bad things if you give them the power to do so.

Remember at the beginning of his little essay, where he was telling us how damnably secular modern Europe was becoming? I don't see the Dutch gearing up to butcher their neighbors. It looks to me that he has demonstrated no necessary connection between atheism and brutality.

And then…and then…what's this I see? No, it couldn't possibly be. He wouldn't, would he?

One last point: Suppose the claims of Christianity are true, and there are eternal verities leading to a peaceful and productive life, and eternal consequences stemming from our faith and related activities?

Golly gee, he did. It's a version of Pascal's Wager. What a clueless nitwit.

Suppose I had a million dollars. Then I would be rich! Therefore, I have a million dollars.

Suppose our Green Bay Packer shirts, porn sites, expensive homes, stock portfolios, advanced degrees, and mirrors are inadequate guides to the good life and death? Let us open our minds and think further about the possibilities and joys of a wholly secular existence.

What is it with this guy and his irrelevant lists? Does he think that those are all attributes of atheists or something? It's as if he has this vision of atheists as a bunch of rich people lounging about and wallowing in porn…it sounds like a good life for some, I suppose, but it's nothing like that in reality. But then, it's clear from the ignorant crap Reeves is scribbling that reality doesn't trouble him much.


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Comments:
#35647: coturnix — 08/14  at  10:06 PM
He is using the term "Enlightment" as derogatory? Openly? Why read the rest of the rant to the end then?



#35651: — 08/14  at  10:14 PM
Uh, OK. Guilty. I do like my squid. And of course, no Christian has ever looked at pornography.


I can imagine PZ with a pile of national geographics under beneat his matress rasberry

I don't quite get his point. OK, so Europeans aren't going to church much, they are dispensing with priestly sanctioning of their marriages, and they're tolerant of homosexuals…is this something bad? Have hideous things been happening over there as a consequence? It looks to me like they are mostly at peace, working out old difficulties to form a European Union.


Several people bring this up, how they're "secularistic" countries now and stuff, how its such a bad thing but nobody says 'whats bad about it'.

Personally, I'm happy for Europe for finally stepping out of it, I took euro history in high school and europes history is fascinating, but so many religious wars. Its no wonder they're turned off by it. So many unnecessary deaths..

People don't like a secular europe, but do you see europe invading the middle east?

-----
"As with all of ID, the important thing is first to have the concept. Production can then follow as a matter of course.” -Dembski



#35654: — 08/14  at  10:25 PM
No, you see them acting like the lame, unchristian cowards they are and starting up bilateral negotiations with the likes of Iran. They're allowing themselves to be tangled up with the enemies of Christianity.

Seriously, I'm going to continue my German education and move over there. Gott weiss ich liebe Bush nicht.



#35656: — 08/14  at  10:38 PM
Personally, I'm a little bit miffed about this frequent assertion that atheists are just that way because they want free sex. I'm an atheist, and I never got to take advantage of all that free lovin' hedonism; all of the atheists I know seem to live rather ordinary, conventional lives. I got married, have been faithful ever since, have had three atheist children who haven't bothered to shoot up their school or muck up their lives with drugs, and as far as I know, my freethinker wife hasn't been participating in any Black Masses behind my back. Is it all the other atheists who have wild and degenerate private lives?

Dude, you really have to start going to the meetings.



#35657: — 08/14  at  10:40 PM
This piece from History News Network by Mr. Reeves...doesn't something about the style of writing and "argumentation" remind you so much of high school students writing assigned papers where they have to argue some point? Phrasing like: "sad truth", "huge flaw", or starting with, "It is commonplace these days..."--it's the classic high school student form of overgeneralized language that sort of sounds like an argument (to a high school student) but is only a disconnected list of unexamined items, glossings, argument from personal experience or friends' experience, etc. Is this guy 15 years old? Oh, snap, no, it turns out he's a Professor and Senior Fellow of the Wisconsin Policy Research Institute." I'd better go back and re-read it. Slowly.



#35662: notheory — 08/14  at  11:16 PM
Secondly, there is no such single, objective thing as "reason."That we have rational powers cannot be denied, of course, but the sad truth is that in many areas of life, especially the ethical and moral, "reason"tends to tell us what we want to hear. This is the huge flaw in the historical works of Herbert J. Muller, beginning with the impressive Uses of the Past. Muller thought that all "reasonable"people, throughout history, would naturally see things in the same way, and that superstition and ignorance were responsible for blocking the consensus. Education is vital, of course, as is reason. But human beings and history aren’t as simply understood as Muller thought.


OK, hold it. Mr Reeves, sober up before you write. This is just incoherent nonsense. I know relativism is all the rage among conservatives, but applying it to reason is going too far. I think you're just saying that because it's what you want to hear.

This is a bastard offshoot of a branch of the philosophy of science, which i posted about here.

The long and the short of it, was that there are a whole bunch of people who were really cheesed off by Logical Positivists. These people are still pissed off today, and take Positivism's failure to mean that everything the Positivists did or said is false.

As PZ mentioned this is tied to the fad of relativism that the right wing seems to have a huge fetish for. Just because total objectivity is impossible, doesn't mean that we shouldn't do our best to minimize subjectivity and bias.

In conclusion, David Horowitz is an intellectual pygmy.



#35663: Alon Levy — 08/14  at  11:34 PM
It's interesting that Reeves brings up hedonism as a consequence of secularism... actually, hedonism is more of a reaction against the totalitarian denial of pleasure that is present in all religions. One of Aldous Huxley's points in Brave New World is that when you become too liberal about sex, you trivialize it. Once sex stops being socially forbidden, people largely stop getting worked up about it, and as residual sexual conservatism disappears, the amount of wild sex people have plummets. I'm pretty certain the attitudes Skatje displays on her blog are normal for people her age with liberal upbringing.



#35665: — 08/14  at  11:44 PM
Whenever people down here in Lubbock, TX learn I'm an atheist, it often seems to me that they're a little disappointed that I'm nothing like the Nihilists from The Big Lebowski.

Then I feel bad for letting them down.



#35667: Stephen Frug — 08/15  at  12:08 AM
May the Flying Spaghetti Monster bless you, PZ! I was just about to email this article to you, suggesting that it merited a fisking and that you were the one to do it... when I see that you not only have already done it, but have done first-rate job of it too!

Alas, HNN seems to have posted two such pieces of dreck in the last day or so. The other suggests that Europe is Dying... because it's secular... so everyone is so bored that they stopped having babies. (I kid you not. So much for all the wild athiest sex!) It actually is a bit more sophisticated, at least in tone, than Reeves's bit, but the ultimate end point is more or less the same. So: want to go into round two? The other piece is here: http://hnn.us/articles/12295.html.



#35668: — 08/15  at  12:20 AM
WHAT!!... we who are godless are supposed to have multiple sex partners!?

Ewwww... it took long enough to get Spouse Version 1.0 trained. There is NO way I am going to spend the energy on anymore!

I reserve the right to be godless and very very boring.



#35670: — 08/15  at  12:59 AM
Several things are wrong with this hoary and naive approach to truth. In the first place, there is no such thing as a purely secular person.

Suppose the claims of secularism are true, and there are purely secular persons. Then, in that case, there is such a thing as a purely secular person. Hah! I got you on that one, Mr. Reeves.



#35671: — 08/15  at  01:24 AM
as residual sexual conservatism disappears, the amount of wild sex people have plummets

The only thing that ended the orgy that started with the sexual revolution was AIDS. Perhaps there had been so much sexual repression for so long that the "plummet" lasted over a decade. Although in the gay community it never really has plummeted, it just got wrapped in latex, and found other less "fluid" outlets.



#35672: — 08/15  at  01:27 AM
The "murderous 20th-cy. secularists" argument ignores the fact that there are simply more people available for killing nowadays. And if one scales by total population, some past cases of mass murder were worse than the infamous 20th-cy. mass murders. The Thirty Years War, one of the Reformation's Wars of Religion, is estimated to have killed 20-25% of Germany's population. While the Stalinists killed only around 5% of Soviet citizens, and the Nazis and Maoists had similar kill rates.

Furthemore, the Nazis were not atheists -- the German Army had belt buckles saying Gott Mit Uns (God With Us), and the Nazis were good buddies with the Catholic Church, at least for a while. Hitler himself claimed that fighting the Jews was doing the will of "the Almighty Creator", examplified in "the Lord" Jesus Christ's famous Temple temper tantrum.

And the Japanese Imperialists believed in State Shinto, which taught the divinity of the Emperor of Japan.

The Communists themselves were atheists, but they show that being an atheist does will not keep one from believing in irrational, quasi-religious belief systems. Consider Communists' turning their leaders into quasi-deities with their "personality cults".



#35673: — 08/15  at  01:38 AM
I love how Europe is just now dying, because of secularism. Never mind that Europe had two world wars in the first half of the last century, and spent the second under the specter of the Iron Curtain. No, Europe is now dying under its gravest threat: secularism. Does the original writer of this piece even understand the basic European history on which Europe's current sociopolitical climate is based?

His ignorance is breathtaking, even the sorostitutes in my poli sci classes who'd twiddle their hair and ask "When the Cold War ended, did that make global warming worse?" show a greater grasp of history and politics than Mr. Reeves.



#35677: — 08/15  at  01:44 AM
PZ,

Enjoy

http://swfsc.nmfs.noaa.gov/frd/Coastal Pelagics/Squid/squidmovies/mating5.mov

[you'll need to cut & paste the URL due to the space]



#35678: — 08/15  at  01:45 AM
Loren Petrich, meet Godwin's Law.



#35683: Stephen Frug — 08/15  at  02:20 AM
Does Godwin's law hold if the subject of the post -- Reeves, not PZ -- himself brought up the Nazi analogy? Loren Petrich was only responding to that argument...



#35685: — 08/15  at  02:33 AM
That might be an excuse - if he had. But (I checked the original article, too) at no point does he reference the nazis.

Oh, there is one mention of Hitler - a link to 'Hitler Watch', a project monitoring the use of the argumentium ad nazium.

So given that Loren was attrempting to tar the religious with the nazi brush, I think that yes, Godwin's Law applies. Oh, and the Hitler zombie is sated once again...



#35687: Martin Wagner — 08/15  at  03:12 AM
Sorry, outeast. Whether Reeves said it in this particular lump of excrement essay, Christians always bring up the Third Reich as an example of a "secular, atheist" state. It's a brush the religious try to tar atheism with far more frequently than the other way around. Loren's remarks were in the interest of responding to Reeves' claims that Europe was threatened by secularism; history provides many examples of Europe facing far more dire, religiously motivated threats than those posed by secularists. I notice you focus on Loren's Nazi remarks and ignore those about the Thirty Years War and Japan, the better to dismiss her entire post. Disingenuous, sir.



#35689: Adam Ierymenko — 08/15  at  03:49 AM
Sometimes I don't think of myself as an atheist, but an "adogmatist." I think this is a bit more comprehensive than atheism; it represents a rejection of the type of thought pattern that characterizes religion as well as a rejection of religious dogma itself.

The Marxists might have been atheists, but they weren't adogmatists. They merely transferred their dogmatic thinking from religion to a secular dogma that was equally narrow-minded. In many ways, they weren't even atheists... depending on how you define theism. They made the state and/or the "people" into a God.



#35690: Henry Stadhouders — 08/15  at  03:59 AM
Hey you out there,

Being as European as one can possibly be and Dutch citizenship at that I can assure you Americans it is like living in Paradise here compared to the States: less people in poverty, a narrower gap between well-to-do people and those less better off both financially and socially and deeper-rooted solidarity among them, no old nannies having to feed on pet food, law-enforced health insurance for everybody, welfare legislation, lower criminal rates, homicide rates 5 to 10 times less, the same for prison inmates, family values not only theoretically held in high esteem but also avowedly put into practice in everyday life as people don't need to work day and night in several jobs to earn a decent income and will not move frequently over long distances, plenty of leisure time, five to six weeks of holiday a year, and a pretty relaxed life style, never a dull week-end during summer-time with all those gay and love parades in every capital city, exciting travelling over short distances and yet meet people of such variety of nations, cultures and languages living in peace and harmony, governments spending low budgets on the military and even less on warfare, investing tax money rather in robust infrastructure and things like dikes to protect people against floods, proper education accessable to everybody in all school levels, no puritanist obsessions with sex and a far lower teen pregnancy and abortion rate, full citizen liberties and freedom rights except for the right to bear arms.
The Dutch are proud to have had religious and intellectual tolerance ever since their nation was founded over 400 years ago and to have repeatedly given asylum to all kinds of freethinkers. Remember that your own Founding Fathers, as they were drawing up their constitutional charters, had deeply been inspired by the Dutch documents of independance issued in the eighties of the 16th century.
I would advise Mr. Reeves to make himself acquainted with the epitome of uncompromising rationalism and radical secularism, the 17th century philosopher Benedictus Spinoza, who, generally considered an atheist, had to put up with the same sort of demising rhetoricism directed against him as Mr. Reeves is emitting in his flux of spermacidal cream. This marvel of intellectualism is commonly counted among the most precious gifts to have been yielded by Dutch civilization to Europe and the world. By no means an atheist in his own eyes he unreservedly did reject all institutionalized religion and outward piety as redundant superstition hampering the mind. Even so, his moral conduct was beyond reproach, living up as he did to his own high standards, a truly free man in no need of hypocrisies. Moreover, he is unanimously reported to have been a benign and humble man who never lost his temper and got along well with people of all walks of life. By the way, Mr. Reeves, he never had sex with anyone.



#35691: — 08/15  at  04:42 AM
Martin Wagner

Hm, so the best way to defend an argumentium ad nazium now is be resort to a tu quoque? Total red herring, old chap.

Loren's use of the H(itler)-bomb was wrong for several reasons; in the first place, simply because it was an ad nazium, something very close to a capital offenswe in rhetoric almost any situation (we can argue about that if you like...). Secondly, though, it was extremely dubious at best - the fact that Hitler exploited the church for a while and anthing written in a belt buckle are irrelevant: although Hitler may have exploited religion the holocaust etc was not motivated by religious belief; ergo red herring.

I could go on.



#35692: — 08/15  at  04:44 AM
Yes, the Dutch pee perfume and have excrement made of chocolate. The Dutch have offered religious and intellectual tolerance since the nations founding 400 years ago? This is the bloody Dutch! The most oppressive and racially intolerant of all the Imperialist nations. Yeah, read a history book written by an author whose name doesn't contain "van." I gotta go, my Grandmas outta catfood.



#35693: — 08/15  at  04:47 AM
I don't think of myself as an atheist, but an "adogmatist."
That isn't really an equivalent to atheism at all, since it could easily include Unitarians. However, it is a nice word anyway. It includes the good bit of anarchist and not the bad bits which would prevent someone labelling themselves as that instead. It does come with a slight risk of throwing out ethics and science though, depending on fine-print of definition. Not doing harm could count as a dogma to some, as could the scientific method - despite the well-grounded rationale and proven track record of those. Skeptic and non-idolater also have some of the connotations you seem to be trying to include.



#35694: Alon Levy — 08/15  at  04:51 AM
A few points, ranging from mildly important to hopelessly pedantic:

1. While the AIDS pandemic had a lot to do with the deliberalizing of sexual mores, the trend was well underway before the virus ever reached the West; in 1980 people had much less wild sex than in 1965.

2. Quality of life is higher in Europe than in the USA, but let's not succumb to delusions of the European dream. Europe's immigrants are ghettoized to a degree that no immigrant groups in the United States are. In the USA, Hispanics constitute 12% of the population, and the number is trending upward. Second-generation Mexican immigrants as a rule of thumb speak English much better than they do Spanish, despite the fact that in some areas of the country Hispanics are a majority ethnicity. In Germany, second-generation Turkish immigrants speak Turkish at home, not German, even though Turks are only about 3% of the German population. As stupidly racist as Americans tend to be, Muslims are better off in the United States than in Europe.

3. The influence Dutch philosophers had on the Enlightenment is practically nil. The major figures in the Enlightenment are by and large British and French - Newton, Locke, Voltaire, Montesquieu, Rousseau, Hume, and Smith.

4. Godwin's Law doesn't say that the first person to compare his opponents to the Nazis loses the argument. All it says is that as a debate continues, the probability that someone will make a Nazi comparison approaches 1.

5. Stalin didn't kill 5% of Russia's population; during his reign he killed something like one sixth of Russia's population, accounting for population growth. In Ukraine, however, he killed a quarter of the population in nine months.

6. The proper Latin for "appeal to the Nazis" is not "argumentatum ad nazium," where Nazi is singular, but "argumentatum ad nazios," where Nazi is plural.



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