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Sunday, November 14, 2004

Hollowell sinks her caries-riddled, snaggly teeth into "theory"

Wheee! Kelly Hollowell graces us with another excrescence from the chitinous cloaca of the mindless, reflexive reactionary hive mind labeled "WorldNetDaily".

A favorite liberal maxim is: "The mind is like a parachute. It only functions when open." So why are libs so zealously opposed to any idea that runs counter to evolution?

What a spectacularly mind-bending opening! Setting aside the fact that I had no idea this maxim was particularly favored by liberals (she's trying to understand, people. We'll cut her some slack and let the first four words of her essay pass), I will at least agree that open-mindedness is a good thing. But, umm, if she is saying that open-mindedness is a liberal value, what does that say about conservatives? That they refuse to pull the ripcord when skydiving?

The second sentence has the same deep conceptual problem. I don't normally associate valuing good science with the liberal/conservative label. I would imagine intelligent conservatives ought to be getting a bit irate with these weird theocratic extremists who have hijacked their political designation and are now using it to associate stupidity with conservativism.

But OK, if Dr Hollowell insists, let's run with it. Yes! Liberals are the party of good science, empiricism, and reason! Conservatives are sad little know-nothings who prefer obsolete, falsified superstitions over evidence.

A trial opened Monday over a warning sticker placed in suburban Atlanta biology textbooks that says evolution is "a theory, not a fact." The sticker reads, "This textbook contains material on evolution. Evolution is a theory, not a fact, regarding the origin of living things. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully and critically considered."

As you might expect, opponents insist that the warning label violates the separation of church and state by promoting religion. They insist this is a backdoor attempt to reintroduce Biblical creation into the classroom.

Why, yes. Because it is. There are no scientific reasons for a bunch of politicians to decide they know biology better than textbook authors and to start slapping warning stickers on books. Seriously, if a group of left-wing extremist tried to stick this warning on all American history textbooks, wouldn't Kelly Hollowell be a little bit suspicious of their motives?

This textbook contains material on the Constitution. That document was written by a cabal of wealthy, slaveholding white males who wanted to perpetuate an elitist class structure on our culture. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully and critically considered.

I think Hollowell would be a bit more than suspicious—she'd be shrieking and whirling like a top. (Want more stickers? Have fun.)

And the creationist warning label is just so stupid. The first sentence is a no-brainer; if evolution isn't in a biology textbook, well, it's not a biology textbook. And the last sentence ought to be true for every textbook—are there certain books which the Republicans believe ought to be approached with closed mind, skimmed carelessly, and accepted without question? Is that their ideal of education?

It's that middle sentence that is the real problem. It's wrong. It misuses the language of science in such a way to illustrate that the authors of the warning simply don't understand science.

Here, I have to redo my absurdist American history warning sticker to show why.

This textbook contains material on the Constitution. Since we do not have a time-machine or videotapes of the deliberations of the founding fathers, it is not possible to analyze the document historically. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully and critically considered.

Anyone with even a passing knowledge of history would know right away that there is no such restriction requiring direct visual observation of an event by a living student of the subject to study history. Historians everywhere would rise up en masse and ask, "What kind of goddamn morons do we have in the state house?"

It's the same story with scientists. We're all rising up and wondering what kind of goddamn morons think calling evolution "a theory, not a fact" necessitates calling it into question. It's like criticizing history for studying things that occurred in the past, or math for using premises, or philosophy for talking about how we think without knowing how we think.

In science, theories are good things. Saying that we have a theory of something means that we have a solid explanation for it with buckets of evidence to back it up. A theory is a whacking great tool we can use to chop into evidence and figure out how everything works, and it's also a great tool for taking scattered bits of evidence and assembling them into interesting and useful ideas. One of our chief criticisms of Intelligent Design creationism and old school creationism is that they have no theory of origins at all, and even studiously avoid saying anything about it.

The other bizarre implication of this sticker is that somehow, raw facts are better than theory. Try to picture a science textbook with nothing but "facts".

"Here is the sequence of hemoglobin. Here is the sequence of the sickle-cell form of hemoglobin. Moving right along, here are some measurements of beak sizes in Geospiza fortis, correlated with average rainfall by year."

Data is crucial, and biology has volumes of it supporting evolution, and it gets presented in these same biology textbooks that the creationists are criticizing…but theory is the framework for understanding. Biologists aren't out collecting postage stamps. They are building ideas that integrate and explain the "facts".

By the way, in addition to lacking any theory, the Intelligent Design creationists also lack any supporting data for whatever the hell it is they are proposing to substitute for evolutionary biology. So why are these politicians paying any attention to them?

But back to Hollowell…Dr Hollowell, who calls herself a "scientist". Strangely enough, Kelly Hollowell, Ph.D., also has a peculiar view of scientific theory. She defines it for us.

A truly scientific theory, by definition, must be testable by repeatable observations. That means a scientific theory can only attempt to explain processes and events that are presently occurring repeatedly and are within our observation. In other words, a scientific theory is empirical in nature.

Hmmm. There goes geology, cosmology, big chunks of astronomy, theoretical physics, paleontology, etc., etc., etc. I am totally baffled by a so-called scientist who claims that science cannot by definition tells us about anything that has happened in the past.

I also don't see why evolutionary biology fails to meet her requirement. Evolution is an ongoing process that is studied in extant organisms, and even our study of the past involves repeated measurements (geologists and physicists will also insist that they are studying ongoing principles, too, I suppose…). Is she seriously trying to suggest that biological theories lack an empirical foundation?

I'm shaking my head with disbelief at this point in her essay, and then she pulls an illustrative example out of her butt, and I'm dumbfounded. Here's the true secret weapon of creationists: say something so incredibly stupid that your critics are all stunned into silence.

Assume the fossils of a one-toed, two-toed and three-toed horse were to be shown to a panel of evolutionists and intelligent design advocates. An evolutionist might conclude that the fossils support descent-by-modification of a species consistent with their worldview. By contrast, intelligent design advocates might conclude with equal validity that the fossils do not provide evidence of a transitional animal but rather demonstrate a rule of extinction that persists in the world today at 20,000 species per year. In either case, the evidence remains unchanged—able to support but unable to prove either explanatory model as accurate.

Umm, I suppose if we had so little data that all we could do is show three examples of discrete morphological features, Hollowell would have a case. That's actually the situation we were in two centuries ago, and then, yes, smart people could oppose the idea of the transformation of species. Now, though, we don't have three: we have thousands of fossils in the horse lineage. We aren't just counting toes, but looking at other morphological features. We have biogeographical and chronological data to go with them. We understand some of the principles of the genetic basis of morphological change. The two worldviews are no longer equally valid: you have to be deeply ignorant or seriously nuts to accept the creationist view anymore. And somebody please tell Dr Hollowell that science doesn't deal in proof: what we have at this point is a body of evidence that is not compatible with her creationist hypothesis, but does favor evolutionary explanations.

I'm also trying to puzzle out her weird "rule of extinction…at 20,000 species per year." So, like, a million years ago there were an additional 20 billion species on the planet? And the Cambrian was populated with an additional 10 trillion? Sounds crowded.


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Comments:
#8905: Chris Clarke — 11/14  at  01:06 PM
As usual, a definitive smackdown.

Here's another take on the disclaimer sticker idea.



#8906: — 11/14  at  01:25 PM
WorldNetDaily is also conducting a poll in which a third of the respondents are currently declaring their faith in a creator God and another quarter say that Darwin can't explain the evident design features of the universe. (As is customary with WND polls, there are lots of overlapping responses provided.) Almost no one believes that Darwin is correct, which tells you the kind of people who take WND polls.



#8907: Brent — 11/14  at  02:58 PM
For more sticker fun, check out this post by Andrew Olmsted*, and the resulting comments:

http://andrewolmsted.com/MT/archives/000963.html

It was made in response to this post by Austin Cline of the Agnosticism/Atheism About.com site:

http://atheism.about.com/b/a/125398.htm

Then, a "David Mobley", who describes himself as a Christian, a physicist, and a "postdoctoral researcher in biophysics at a major research university" (his research page here: http://dillgroup.ucsf.edu/~dmobley/research.html), posts this in response to Cline and myself:

http://dmobley.blogspot.com/2004/11/evolution-is-theory-but-dont-remind-me.html

The fundamental problem is that Cline, the author of the atheism post, continues to insist that the ONLY definition of evolution is "change in allele frequency over time." I work in biophysics at a major research university, and I far more often hear evolution used in context more like this: "We can see how this protein is evolutionarily conserved across all these different species." That means (a) the protein is the same across many different species, and (b) the claim is that those species are related by evolution -- i.e. the fact that the protein is similar in a man to that in a chimpanzee means that man evolved from a chimpanzee. This is not something that NECESSARILY follows from the change in allele frequency over time.


I also threw a few comments his way, but apparently this guy only listens to his colleagues, and cannot be bothered to give a common atheist like myself the time of day. But why in the world would a self-described "physicist" working on "Improving computer modeling techniques for computational drug discovery" think that his area of professional expertise makes him some sort of authority on biology and evolution? I'm a well-read layman, but I recognize my limitations and rely on the research and studies conducted by the real professionals.

Anyway, I just thought you all might be interested in some conversations concerning this same subject in other blogs.

*Andrew was actually very gracious to me via email and seemed to understand that his understanding of the subject was indeed limited and showed a willingness to learn more about it.



's avatar #8908: PZ Myers — 11/14  at  03:48 PM
You know these people have a common problem: they don't understand a scientific concept, so they try to link it to some other distinction they think they understand. Olmsted and Mobley are under the delusion that evolution is an atheistic idea, while Hollowell flat out calls it "liberal". It has about as much to do with god and politics as does gravity.

The argument by Mobley that you quote is as bogus as Hollowell's fairy tale about horse toes: they are based on ignorance of the depth and breadth of our current knowledge. Yes, you can take a single protein from a man and a chimp and compare them, and the similarity does not necessarily imply common descent, but when you take a thousand proteins from man, chimp, mouse, fish, and jelly fish, and you compare them and put a computer to work assembling relationships, it becomes pretty much indisputable evidence. And it's not just the raw similarities, but the patterns of differences that are informative.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#8909: — 11/14  at  03:52 PM
I don’t normally associate valuing good science with the liberal/conservative label. I would imagine intelligent conservatives ought to be getting a bit irate with these weird theocratic extremists who have hijacked their political designation and are now using it to associate stupidity with conservativism.


On the other hand, an impartial observation of the last, say, four years or so of the US's science policy might indeed conclude that good science is not something conservatives are all that interested in.

Rrawr!



's avatar #8910: PZ Myers — 11/14  at  04:03 PM
Well, to be fair, this administration doesn't seem to have many ties to conservativism, either. When a bug-eating nutcase in the insane asylum proudly claims to be a Republican, it doesn't necessarily mean all Republicans are insane.

Although when the Republicans elect the inmate to the presidency, the hypothesis does acquire more force.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#8911: DarkSyde — 11/14  at  04:05 PM
Well of course folks like Hollowell know they're lying and distorting. I often see evols making implicit excuses by stating something like "Clearly this person (someone with a degree in science) doesn't know the difference between the collowquail and the scientific definition of the term theory'.
Nonsense. Of course they know what they're doing. They're liars pure and simple.



#8913: — 11/14  at  04:11 PM
Olmsted and Mobley are under the delusion that evolution is an atheistic idea,


I have always been troubled by those who present themselves as serious evolutionists and devout Christians. This a common approach with science teachers in schools. I find it inconguous that one can find the facts and theory of evolution compelling and at the same time take Genesis to be any more than a fairy tale.

One does not need be an atheist to understand evolution, but once one understands the facts and theory of evolution how does one not become an atheist.



's avatar #8914: PZ Myers — 11/14  at  04:16 PM
Oh, I don't know. I've known a few amazingly obtuse people who have managed to work their way through grad school: persistence and good schmoozing will get you a long ways.

But even if they are lying, they're doing it for Jesus, which makes it OK.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#8915: — 11/14  at  04:19 PM
I am always struck by the paranoid repetition of evangelicals of the term "worldview", as if they have "outgrown" the use of reason, logic, and empirical observation to make decisions in their own lives.

They sadly insist that scientists have drifted too far from the shore when, in fact, they are on the same boat with us 99% of their waking lives. It's just that when it comes to certain facts about life that conflict with their holy book, they thrown out their everday tools of existence (reason, logic, and empirical observation) and reach for their supernatural teddy bear.

Try asking an evangelical whether they refer to the Bible to determine if they should take an umbrella with them. When they say, "No" ask them "why not"? Then ask them if they refer to the Bible to determine if their credit card company has calculated their debt correctly. If they say, "no", ask them "why not"? Then ask them if they refer to the Bible to determine whether if they drop their pencil, it will fall to the ground. If they say "no", ask them "why not"?

The point is that these folks don't have a different "worldview" when it comes to interpreting facts *except* for that tiny tiny number of facts which conflict with their holy book. This is their problem, not scientists (many of whom are Christian), and they need to be made aware that this "worldview" dichotomy is nothing more than a bogus excuse for their ignorance and their pathetic attempts to force their ignorance on others.

How should they be made aware? By our political leaders, on national TV. The time for fucking around is over.



#8916: — 11/14  at  04:20 PM
Lying for Jesus ... has a nice ring to it.



's avatar #8917: PZ Myers — 11/14  at  04:25 PM
DD: Compartmentalization is an easy thing to do. All of us hold contradictory beliefs. I can simultaneously see my cat as a detestable and annoying stinky pee-making machine, and as a member of the family who needs to be cared for and protected.

Christians can be committed to understanding as well as possible the purported Creation of their god, and can do good research. That their discoveries have made their god-concept superfluous and give greater respectability to atheism doesn't imply that Christians are incapable of contributing to them -- it just means that in science the record of the natural world easily trumps the delusions of the mind.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#8918: — 11/14  at  04:48 PM
It strikes me that where the conflict comes is over how one defines being a Christian, not the definition of scientist. I realize that everyone makes their own decisons about how to parse their religious views with the facts on the ground, and I respect the need to do so. Certainly in most cases scientists, and other rational people, let the facts rule and moderate their religious beliefs. Fundies do it the other way around which puts them out of step with the rest of the world, including most of those teachers I used as example. Dr. Hollowell being one of those unable to compartmentalize appropriately.

I think a big reason that the fundies/ID/creationists fight so hard for the Genesis view of the world is because if it is wrong, then everything that comes after may also be wrong.



#8919: Andrew — 11/14  at  04:59 PM
Just to defend myself from specious charges:

1) I do not subscribe to a belief in creationism (which I believe I mentioned in my original post on the subject).

2) Even if I were to subscribe to a belief in some variation of creationism/intelligent design, I would not attempt to call it 'science,' since neither of those is falsifiable, which I believe is a necessary requirement of a valid hypothesis or theory.

3) I do not consider evolution and atheism to be inextricably linked (indeed, I am not an atheist, but I do believe that evolution is accurate), but I have discovered that for a certain type of atheist, they fly completely off the handle if you not only subscribe to evolution, but agree to it precisely as they understand it. (I've seen the same thing from many abortion supporters; it's insufficient to be prochoice for them, you've also got to be willing to die to defend Roe v. Wade, etc.) My use of the term 'zealot' was intended to illustrate that this was not the norm for atheists in my experience, but instead an annoying aberration. Evidently I was unclear.

I'd like to offer kudos to Brent, whom I found to be a valuable voice of reason in a discussion that is too often blurred by emotions on both sides.



Trackback: Science v. Religion, Round Two Tracked on: Andrew Olmsted dot com (209.208.121.34) at 2004 11 14 17:12:12
I've written about quite a bit over the three-plus years I've maintained this site, and I've discovered there are only two topics that invariably draw a response: Apple Computers and atheism. Any deviation from the party line in either case...



#8920: Les Lane — 11/14  at  05:22 PM
Some reflections on "worldview". Kelly Hollowell's is clearly prescientific.



#8921: — 11/14  at  05:41 PM
"On the other hand, an impartial observation of the last, say, four years or so of the US’s science policy might indeed conclude that good science is not something conservatives are all that interested in."

Quick, what do MSNBC, CNN, the NYT, ABCNews, and CBS News have, that FoxNews doesn't?

A science section.



#8922: David Mobley — 11/14  at  05:42 PM
I just want to reply to Brent, who quoted a portion of my post and said this:
"But why in the world would a self-described “physicist” working on “Improving computer modeling techniques for computational drug discovery” think that his area of professional expertise makes him some sort of authority on biology and evolution? I’m a well-read layman, but I recognize my limitations and rely on the research and studies conducted by the real professionals."
He says this in response to my assertion that defining evolution simply as "change in allele frequency over time" is defining it more narrowly than a biologist does.

I'm certainly no expert on evolution, but I can tell that a biologist is using a more broad definition of evolution when they say that a protein is "evolutionarily conserved" between a mouse and a human (meaning that the protein is similar in the mouse and in the human, and that the mouse and the human are related by evolution). Evolution certainly INCLUDES change in allele frequency over time, but it's often used in a much more broad way. If you don't believe me, just attend a couple of research talks at a university on biology, especially in the area of bioinformatics.

This is only important because Cline's assertion is that "change in allele frequency over time" is the only definition of evolution. And since we see this around us all the time (that is, we develop different breeds of dogs, or bacteria resistant to certain antibiotics, etc.) evolution is a FACT and anyone who says otherwise must be "stupid or ignorant".

I would agree with Cline if that were the only definition of evolution. But my point is, that's NOT the only definition of evolution: Biologists use it in a much more broad way, to say that humans and mice evolved from a common ancestor. I realize pretty mcuh everyone on this board believes that. But I'm not "stupid or ignorant" if I don't believe it, because unlike "change in allele frequency over time," it's not something that we can observe happening. (Particularly, have you ever observed a human and a mouse evolving from something like a fish?)

Cline's assertion is that evolution is a theory, and a fact. Mine is "change in allele frequency over time" is a fact, but the idea that we all evolved from common ancestors is just a theory.

Now that I hope I've sufficiently explained myself, feel free to ridicule me.



#8923: — 11/14  at  05:57 PM
But I’m not “stupid or ignorant” if I don’t believe it, because unlike “change in allele frequency over time,” it’s not something that we can observe happening.


David, the point that is often missed by those who don't believe in common ancestry is that we have observed speciation events. There's a good list of articles at http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html#part5

Rrawr!



's avatar #8924: PZ Myers — 11/14  at  06:04 PM
So, have you observed a canyon carved by erosion?

Have you witnessed thermonuclear reactions in a star?

This qualifier that if we don't observe something happening, it's not credible science, is a ludicrous canard that is often used by creationists of the most abysmally ignorant sort. That broad way that you hear it used in bioinformatics talks? That's well-supported, evidence-based science.

And why, no, I haven't observed a mouse evolving from a fish; it occurred well before my time, on a timescale that is not compatible with an individual seeing it all. It is painfully stupid to suggest that that is a strike against the idea. I have seen numerous fossils that illustrate the process. I've seen the molecular and embryological vestiges of the events. There is a meshwork of many lines of evidence that all converge on one best answer.

And please..."just a theory"? That's really number one on my list of phrases useful for recognizing the floundering creationist idiots who have wandered far out of their depth. Did you read anything that's been written on the scientific meaning of "theory"?

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#8926: DarkSyde — 11/14  at  06:18 PM
David said "I’m certainly no expert on evolution

Correct, you are not. If someone were to come along, say someone who had a Law degree, and say "I'm no expert in physics, but I think physicists should at least be open to the idea of Intelligent Grappling."

And assuming someone was so serious about IG that they were lobbying to have it taught in 9th grade physical science classes across the country, because afterall there are "problems in string theory and in force unification which modern secular atheistic physics cannot explain" would it be out of line to suspect they were A. Completely flaked out and/or B. Following an agenda in which the scientific education of the students was not a top concern?

Not to say that you do this David, but any statements you make about Intelligent Design in the context of evolutionary biology will be used by folks who do precisely this no matter how innocent or off the cuff those statements might be. Even something as simple as saying "You've never observed a fish evolve into an amphibian" will be misused if you have any academic initials after your name. (And if they misquote you or exaggerate what you meant, you can tell us, believe me we will believe you.)



#8929: — 11/14  at  07:42 PM
The walls are closing in! The barbarians are at the gate!!!First, they took the White House, Senate, House, and the majority of Governorships -- Heck, they even got some right-wing nut job, Tim Pawlenty, in charge of Myers' beloved Minnesota! It's like a bad dream, ain't it? Hordes of pea-brained peasants with pitchforks intruding in the inner sanctum of scientific discovery!!!

I say, Oh Well, Myers.



#8930: — 11/14  at  07:56 PM
Desert Donkey said,
Lying for Jesus … has a nice ring to it.

True enough, but here's a better one:

Killing for Jesus.

...the most popular alibi for murder over the past 2000 years?

Not exactly my definition of "morality."



#8936: — 11/15  at  03:44 AM
Hollowell: As one Chinese scientist remarked, "In China we can question Darwin but we can't question the government; in America you can question the government but you can't question Darwin."

She doesn't give the name of the scientist, but she's probably talking about Jun-Yuan Chen, in case anybody was curious.

Sure is a lot of vituperation going on around here, by the way. Wow...



#8939: — 11/15  at  06:26 AM
The enlightened refer to it as WorldNutDaily wink



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