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Wednesday, October 27, 2004

Homo floresiensis, Flores Man

Echoed on the Panda's Thumb

A long-lost cousin has been discovered, Homo floresiensis, or Flores Man. It's especially dramatic for a number of reasons. It's relatively recent, with the youngest specimen only 18,000 years old, but it is most closely related to Homo erectus. This species was also minute, only 3 feet tall, and tiny-brained. Here we have a group of small, specialized human relatives, living contemporaneously with Homo sapiens, on isolated islands in Indonesia. It's like discovering that Munchkins were real. You can read more here:

Flores Man
The LB1 cranium and mandible in lateral and three-quarter views, and cranium in frontal, posterior, superior and inferior views. Scalebar, 1cm.

A real pleasure of working in a historical science like biology is that sometimes you can be completely surprised by some unexpected, odd, and entirely accidental discovery. Flores Man is such a wild surprise.

A new human-like species - a dwarfed relative who lived just 18,000 years ago in the company of pygmy elephants and giant lizards - has been discovered in Indonesia.

Skeletal remains show that the hominins, nicknamed 'hobbits' by some of their discoverers, were only one metre tall, had a brain one-third the size of that of modern humans, and lived on an isolated island long after Homo sapiens had migrated through the South Pacific region.

"My jaw dropped to my knees," says Peter Brown, one of the lead authors and a palaeoanthropologist at the University of New England in Armidale, Australia.

The find has excited researchers with its implications—if unexpected branches of humanity are still being found today, and lived so recently, then who knows what else might be out there? The species' diminutive stature indicates that humans are subject to the same evolutionary forces that made other mammals shrink to dwarf size when in genetic isolation and under ecological pressure, such as on an island with limited resources.

Flores Man adds an interesting twist to our hominid phylogenies. As you can see in this diagram, we now have to add this slender thread from the great Homo erectus dispersal, a relic species that survived long after it's closest relatives.

Flores Man
Homo floresiensis in the context of he evolution and dispersal of the genus Homo. a,The new species as part of the Asian dispersals of the descendants of H. ergaster and H. erectus, with an outline of the descent of other Homo species provided for context. b, The evolutionary history of Homois becoming increasingly complex as new species are discovered. Homo floresiensis (left) is believed to be a long-term,isolated descendant ofJavanese H. erectus, but it could be a recent divergence. 1, H. ergaster/African erectus; 2, georgicus; 3, Javanese and Chinese erectus;4, antecessor; 5, cepranensis; 6, heidelbergensis; 7, helmei; 8, neanderthalensis; 9, sapiens; 10, floresiensis. Solid lines show probable evolutionary relationships; dashed lines, possible alternatives.

Cryptozoologists are going to have a ball. Henry Gee already has an article up, mentioning "that other species of recently extinct humans might be discovered on other isolated islands", and even mentioning the possibility of extant hominids.

The accompanying paper on the archaeology also shows the tools found with these little hominids; these weren't simple apes. They were making some wicked weapons and carving tools.

Flores tools

Despite its ability to make tools, though, Flores Man was small-brained, small even for its diminutive size.

brain/body ratios
The relative brain and body size of H. floresiensis. The dimensions of the skull and skeleton (LB1) described by Brown et al. fall well outside the extremes seen in H.sapiens and the ‘erectines’(a range of hominin species, of which H. erectus is the most familiar). LB1 is closer in size to, but even smaller than, the australopithecines, of which the best known example is Lucy. On various anatomical grounds,however, Brown et al. believe that LB1 represents a dwarfed H.erectus.

Look at that: 1m tall, with a 380 cm3 brain. And shaped stone tools. That is simply amazing.


Flores Man reconstruction

There's also an article on Flores on the National Geographic site, including the nice reconstruction to the left.

National Geographic provided funding for the research, and are going to be airing a documentary on the subject next year.


They also summarize the little guy's life style:

The Flores people used fire in hearths for cooking and hunted stegodon, a primitive dwarf elephant found on the island. Although small, the stegodon still weighed about 1,000 kilograms (2,200 pounds), and would pose a significant challenge to a hunter the size of a three-year-old modern human child. Hunting must have required joint communication and planning, the researchers say.

Almost all of the stegodon fossils associated with the human artifacts are of juveniles, suggesting the tiny humans selectively hunted the smallest stegodons. The Flores humans' diets also included fish, frogs, snakes, tortoises, birds, and rodents.

Morwood MJ, Soejono RP, Roberts RG, Sutikna T, Turney CSM, Westaway KE, Rink WJ, Zhao J-x, vandenBergh GD, Rokus Awe Due, Hobbs DR, Moore MW, Bird MI, Fifield LK (2004) Archaeology and age of a new hominin from Flores in eastern Indonesia. Nature 431-435.

Brown P, Sutikna T, Morwood MJ, Soejono RP, Jatmiko, Saptomo EW, Rokus Awe Due (2004) A new small-bodied hominin from the Late Pleistocene of Flores, Indonesia. Nature 431:1055-1061.


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Comments:
#8583: — 11/08  at  11:47 PM
If LB1 proves to be a (secondary) microcephalic, does that disapprove the concept of evolutionary dwarfing of Homo spp. in island environments? Or are we "above" those evolutionary forces, which do affect other big animals? The historical short stature of the Japanese is not written in their genotype, while Samoan islanders are born giants. My heart says we are children of evolution.



#8586: — 11/09  at  12:30 AM
I have no doubt we are children of evolution. I have studied human evolution and published peer-reviewed papers on this topic (including operation of natural selection among modern - last few thousand yers - people). Obviously humans on islands evolve various body sizes. Small body size (pygmy-like) seems to be regular adaptation to very hot and humid climates, because passive heat radiation is the only way to cool a body in such climates. Sweating will not work in full humidity. Thus, on Flores reduction in body size is likely, but within normal human range. I have supervised recently completed PhD by Mita Artaria (Surabaya) which among others, has shown that Javanese children growing in the families of very high socio-economic status (children of doctors, businessmen, dentists etc.) are smaller than their American o European counterparts. This is genetically small body size adapting to warm and humid environments. Yet, none of these children were real dwars.



#8590: — 11/09  at  02:45 AM
Jaime, Richard, Heterolocha:
You asked to be corrected and I am happy to jump up and oblige. The brain is a very expensive organ to maintain, and current free availability of calories (in our societies, not in south Sudan) is a very exceptional, extremely recent situation. H. sapiens evolved in penurious circumstances and any useless cerebral tissue outgrowth would not be affordable for long.
I tend to agree with this assessment. Our brains use approximately 1/5 of all the energy we consume each day. Figure that's 20% food energy for a 3 lb organ, or about 2% body mass! Add that to the fact that our brains might have begun their growth when hominids began scavenging and getting the calorie rich bone marrow, and later of course added meat to our diet. I call it our "obscenely large" brain!
Yet when we consider the connections within the brain, once established (evolved) in such complexity, it's quite possible for a reduction in size to occur without losing the complexity.
Also interesting that some "idiot savants" have apparently bridged the two hemispheres of the brain and have tremendous powers of memory and calculation. A recent study indicates that the active portions of their computational brains continue to grow as they get older. Now that's intriguing!
We are indeed a remarkable species!!



#8604: — 11/09  at  10:37 AM
With apologies to Roark, how can we know when we, "Use Enough Brain?"

I have a friend in Indiana whose son has about 350cc worth of brain and has been nursed along, bedridden, for almost 18 years. The boy has died several times and been "saved". He barely has hearing, some touch, neither sight nor speech nor motor control from the neck down. The poor boy has emotions though and has displayed terror, sadness and pleasure at being touched by family members. Obviously this is a mis-wired brain. Clearly, 350cc can barely keep basic life functions going in a modern human.

At the same time, I taught in LA with a man whose niece had been hit by a car at nine years old. She has permanent brain damage to all cortex but the left rear quarter of her brain. She had to learn all infant skill over again, but triumphed and passed her law degree in Hawaii in her 20s. According to my fellow teacher, there is still no brain function outside the LR quadrant (she is supposed to be a Phineas Gage sort of study piece, so maybe some of you have heard of this woman?).

Obviously animals with far smaller brains perform complex tasks. Some do it with instinct, some with cognitive thought. Speculation by Paleo-novelist Auel went so far as to having Neanderthals connected by racial memory. A baby's fear of heights is evidence it lives in us, but to what degree would it have been a part of the Ebu Gogo?

Regardless of the answers, I just feel fortunate to live in a time of such fabulous scientific discovery, especially the wide spread use of computer-assisted DNA tests. LB1 and the whole Ebu Gogo thing is the most exciting subject for study and speculation that I've come across in a long time. My thanks go out to the guys and gals in the lab coats.

PS: In laymens' terms, what is a maxiallary pillar?



#8647: — 11/10  at  02:40 AM
It may be true that in very hot and humid climates humans tend to evolve towards small bodies. But the climate of Flores Island is not very hot nor very humid. I quote:

"This is a typical monsoon area. The period of the N.W. monsoon (December - April) with prevailing wind from west to northwest brings rain, while the period of S.E monsoon (June-September/October) is the dry season, with prevailing wind east to southeast.

The two seasons are separated by intermediate months (November and May) when winds may come from any direction. According to the island's rainfall pattern, Flores can be divided into three zones: 1. The dry north coast with less than 1000 mm annual rainfall, 2. The central mountains with over 2000 mm annual rainfall and 3. The southern flanks which benefit from bimodal rainfall."



#8655: — 11/10  at  10:20 AM
Jaim:

So what you're saying is that the "smaller body sheds heat" theory of shrinking H. erectus doesn't hold with Flores?

It may not be Central Africa or Hyderabad hot, but it's plenty dank and sticky, especially if we consider that the island was probably completely forested in pre-history, or at least, before the arrival of rice-based aqgriculture.

There's another way to drop heat but it is precarious: grow really lean, ala East Africa. As we have seen all too often in our time, that physiological solution to the heat thing doesn't pay dividends in, how did Gorilla Girl put it, caloric "penury" (love good phrases!).

I want more evidence from the source, or close to it! Oh, and I found out what a maxiallery pillar is.



#8723: — 11/10  at  11:22 PM
"It may not be Central Africa or Hyderabad hot, but it’s plenty dank and sticky, especially if we consider that the island was probably completely forested in pre-history, or at least, before the arrival of rice-based agriculture."

Richard, this is out of my area of competence, but it seems to me that Flores climate is a Wet-Dry Tropical Climate (Aw in Vladimir Koeppen's classification), typically a savanna. The presence of elephants confirms, in my mind, that Homo floresienses did not live in a dank and sticky Tropical Rainforest environment.

By the way, what happened to those cute Flores elephants?



#8740: — 11/11  at  10:40 AM
Jaim:

The Koeppen classification system is new to me. Thanks! Something new is always fun to study.

Being part of the archipelago, Flores is right in the way of monsoons and other moisture laden weather systems, whereas the Islands to its north are slightly less so.
Elephants in Central Africa as well as those in S, and SE Asia are jungle dwellers, making small openingings which grow over quickly, but someone with more expertise can better educate both of us on Flores' climate +/- 18k years ago.

I Googled my fingers raw on Stegodon, which also seems to have been a hold out in that region, and found very little. As for what happened to the cute pygmy stegodons, can you say "concentrated protein"? How about "knapped stone cutting edge"?

It takes just as much effort, except perhaps for the final kill, to staulk and corner a small animal as a large one. In primitive cases, it would be more, as the nimbler creatures can sometimes out-maeuver, and in tight country outrun a hominid hunter with muscle-powered weapons. If the boys are out for meat then a larger animal, less able to shed heat during pursuit and less able to maneuver out of bad ground, but possessing the same meat as twenty or more deer-size critters, makes the choice of game clear. Witness the disappearance of the large mammals in the immediate post-Folsom period in NA history. Mammoth remains indicate that primitive man's choice of tactic was to tire the animal through harrassment, then put a spear into the loins and let the animal weaken before finishing it off. That Neanderthals had enormously high numbers of broken (and knit) bones is testimony to the hazards of hunting larger animals, but the payoff was immense. On a related note, Norse Runic tales mention Vikings going north to a small island (Wrangle? Spitzbergen?) to hunt what could only have been mastodons, and this from 800-1000 c.e.

I am holding desperate hope out that the Ebu Gogo are still out there, even if they disappoint us by being nasty little bastards with which we can find no common bond.



#8808: mattH — 11/12  at  02:41 PM
Clearly, something has happened to give birth to the Mesoamerican high civilizations and odds are it was some African settlers.


Why, because they weren't intelligent enough to do it themselves? This line of thought is based on a superficial interpretation of limited iconographic Olmec material. Platforms from the Olmec period which are the precoursors of Teotihuacano, Aztec and Mayan pyramids resemble nothing like the Egypian pyramids. Arguments that the collosal stone heads are African in appearance is superficial at best, ignoring variation in indigenous populations. It also ignores a majority of iconographic material in favor of a select few that fit the argument. Even the LDS do better archaeology than this with their preconceived notions. It's also interesting that you seem to imply that metallurgy was brought by Africans, yet your argument doesn't claim that there was contact after metallurgy was developed in Africa, and ignores the fact that metallurgy was first present in the Western Hemisphere in modern Andean Peru.

The real irony of all of this is that the arguments most often presented for why this is 'ignored' by scientists is that it's simply racist, all the while ignoring the bigoted nature of the revisionist claims themselves.



#8833: — 11/12  at  06:03 PM
Ooooh, Heteralocha, it looks like you peed in MattH's PC Wheaties. I'll bet you disappear into an ashram for self examination—NOT!

Matt: An anthropologist is by definition a racist, but not necessarily a bigot. My guess would be that you've never slept while a man of another color, language and religion protected you with a loaded rifle, nor have you made love to women to whom you could neither speak nor pronounce their name. People ARE different, and the best of our kind get along and celebrate the differences. That's what makes us interesting, but to scream "racist" to halt discussion is like the Taliban blowing up old Buddas to glorify Islam.

Hominids are different and they get their ideas from one another. Read Diamond's Guns, Germs and Steel and then rejoin the conversation in a less pouty frame of mind. Jeez.



#8849: mattH — 11/12  at  09:25 PM
That's funny Richard. I'm an anthropologist. Interestingly enough one of my undergrad professors did her MA on Mesoamercian iconography, and later did post-doctoral ethnographic work in East Africa on East African Kingdoms around Lake Victoria. My personal interests include ancient civilizations and complex societies. And yes, I have read GG&S. It's all right, but not stellar, nor do I think that Diamond himself was advocating diffusionism as the primary means of culture change, let alone that his work really supports diffusionism as the answer for the stratification of New World societies.

It's also not about being PC, it's all about facts. The facts that don't support Heteralocha's thesis without being highly selective in what you examine and preclude. Show me a peer-reviewed article about African influence in pre-Columbian Mesoamerican and I might take you a bit more seriously.

As for the rest of your diatribe, mind explaining why that matters? Are we trying to determine who's the most sensitive by how much sex someone has had with illiterate indigenous people, or who's been in a UN protectorate?



#8869: — 11/13  at  06:58 AM

Also interesting that some “idiot savants” have apparently bridged the two hemispheres of the brain and have tremendous powers of memory and calculation.

Um, everybody has bridged the two hemispheres of the brain: I doubt they've grown a second corpus callosum, so what did you mean?



#8880: — 11/13  at  01:31 PM
Direct connections, no cc there. I will try to find the article I read (it was fairly recently).



#8890: — 11/13  at  10:39 PM
With regards to the microcephaly arguement as to why the "hobbit" is not a seperate human species... Even if the small brained individual found was from a regular-sized population suffering from microcephaly, don't other facial features suggest this would be a H. erectus population not H. sapiens? Making the 18ky date for the find equally astounding?



#8904: — 11/14  at  11:41 AM
Maciej Henneberg sounds like teuku jacob?!



#8925: — 11/14  at  06:06 PM
I talked to Teuku Jacob on the telephone on Friday 5 November, right after he announced at a press conference findings of his team - that LB1 was a microcephalic. Since I announced the same on 31 October, following statistical analysis of LB1 measurements and a study of its photographs, we compared our notes and just laughed. Teuku is a very senior and experienced colleague whom I respect. We arrived at our microcephaly conclusion independently, though. It has been reported in "The News of the Week" in the latest issue of "Science".

As to the face of LB1, it metrically is indistinguishable from faces of modern humans, except for smaller orbit breadth which is related to smaller width of the microcephalic braincase (see supplementary information for Brown et al.'s paper in "Nature"). LB1 has a receding chin, which is a common characteristic of microcephalics, but happened to be also present in H. erectus. Due to the small size of the braincase, the forehead of LB1 is low, thus the bar of bone over the uper rims of orbits stands out resembling supraorbital tori of H. erectus. Receding forehead is characteristic of microcephalics.

In short: similarities between LB1 and H. erectus are a by-product of developmental anomalies of the head and face that occur in microcephaly.



#8951: — 11/15  at  10:50 AM
MattH: Mama would be so proud to know her stugglin' son was even capable of a diatribe. Why, I am ever so flushed with the thrill of accomplishment.

Seriously: point taken. And frankly I agree that Heteralocha's metals-from-l'Afrique is a stretch, but I won't nay-say it. I am far more inclined to believe that metallic, artistic and empire-building influences were linked to dynastic upheavals in Asia (sorry, but I DON'T think they thought it up by themselves, but my reasons are Equine). The Pacifc Current, ancient stone-donut anchors found along the California coast and the Tangish art influences scream "Sino-Refugee." Have you done any reading on this (this question is not being smart-assed, I'm curious to learn more)?

As for 'why it matters', is that the majority of academically educated people who espouse political correctness (or wave the term 'racist' as if it was some sort of vampire-repellant garlic) have never actually broken bread with or busted caps alongside folks from cultures divers. I forget the impossibly long German word meaning the "world-weariness of wealthy children," but the same idea crops up alot with Limosine Liberals. Maybe you've paid your dues on some remote studies or a Peace Corps (now THERE are gutsy people) tour, and if so, then you are entitled to a tip of the hat. If the closest you've come to another culture is weeping gently over a Sally Struthers commercial, well....

Gorilla Girl: Please keep writing about Savants. Ever since reading about Blind Tom they have fascinated me from the wiring harness standpoint. But, how could someone not have a corpus collosum?

Dr. Henneberg; You seem to be a voice of caution, but doggonit, one can only hope your assessment is proved wrong in the end. Have you included the other small skeletons in your theory? The microcephaly thing seems so unlikely, considering age and apparent normality otherwise. Don't micros also show signs of muscle imbalance or other malformations which would reveal themselves in the bones? Would that explain the longer-than-average arms? In the study of science, people such as yourself are SO valuable. Thanks for NOT getting caught up in the emotion of the whole thing, so that the rest of us can jump up and down knowing that there is some adult supervision.



#8956: — 11/15  at  01:19 PM
Maciej Henneberg wrote:
similarities between LB1 and H. erectus are a by-product of developmental anomalies of the head and face that occur in microcephaly.

Oh Maciej Henneberg or teuku jacob, why don't you just said straight ahead that LB1 and H. erectus is the same. Also, if LB1 is H. sapiens with microcephaly, then there is no H. erectus, because the fossils of H. erectus found in Java is similar with LB1? (it is your conclusion, though).
Come on....make people laugh.....



#8970: — 11/15  at  05:29 PM
Dr. Henneberg: If Sm 3 appears to be a cross between H. sapiens and H. erectus, is it possible that LB1 could be a dwarf mix?



#8974: — 11/15  at  06:22 PM
Thanks Richard for your good words about me. Severity of anomalies varies from one microcephalic to the next. Some are not even intellectually disabled. The skeleton of LB1 is somewhat anomalous, not only the length of the upper and lower limbs does not match, but the shape of the pelvis looks to some of my learned colleagues more "australopithecine" than Homo. Microcephaly being a developmental anomaly that starts before birth, is likely to produce disproportions in the skeleton, but no clear pathological signs on bone surface. I already mentioned a microcephalic I met last week in a shopping mall in Adelaide - she was a mature adult, walked and talked with her family members. As to the age of the LB1 individual, she is an adult, and so were a number of other microcephalics retrieved from archaeological contexts, most notably a 4 ka old adult male from Minoan culture on Crete.as to the antiquity of microcephalic skeletons the oldest comes from the Magdalenian Period of Europe which is Upper Pleistocene (some 20 ka), similar to LB1. For a comprehensive overview of "archeological" microcephalics see "Cambridge Encyclopaedia of Paleopathology" pblished in 1998.

As to Adji Manggomom's comments. I am NOT Teuku Jacob. I use here my real name, so you can look up my details on internet (http://www.adelaide.edu.au). I am an Australian professor of anatomy and biological anthropology (with a past in academic positions in Poland, Texas and South Africa). I did not say straight away that LB1 and H.erectus are the same, because I do not think they are. I think that LB1 is simply an individual of H.sapiens with a growth disorder. Whether there is, or there is not H.erectus, as a species separate from H. sapiens, is a broader topic of a separate discourse concerning definitions of species, continiuty of hominid lineages etc. I have published in 1990 (Journal of Comparative Human Biology - HOMO) an opinion that H.erectus is an earlier version of H. sapiens, that is, they are both members of the same evolving gradually lineage. I cannot take it back.



#9038: mattH — 11/16  at  04:19 AM
As for ‘why it matters’, is that the majority of academically educated people who espouse political correctness (or wave the term ‘racist’ as if it was some sort of vampire-repellant garlic) have never actually broken bread with or busted caps alongside folks from cultures divers.


Ah, so it's a version of "some of my best friends are...". I think that speaks for itself.

Seriously: point taken. And frankly I agree that Heteralocha’s metals-from-l’Afrique is a stretch, but I won’t nay-say it. I am far more inclined to believe that metallic, artistic and empire-building influences were linked to dynastic upheavals in Asia (sorry, but I DON’T think they thought it up by themselves, but my reasons are Equine). The Pacifc Current, ancient stone-donut anchors found along the California coast and the Tangish art influences scream “Sino-Refugee.”


Then present a better thesis that explains all of the data we have, not just the selected ones that make your view consonant with itself. That's what science is about. The current Africa-Olmec thesis ignores, no, is oblivious to, vast swaths of information, from social structure to religious terminology, from iconographic uses of symbols to implementation of technology into the system itself. And when they do get something 'right', they elide from one culture to another, presenting at best a superficial understanding of the subject, reminicent of the work of Joseph Campbell.

For example, one of the most quoted points is that the Olmec used African linguistic iconography on one piece of monumental architecture. Yet there is no evidence that it is used in a method consistent with that language, nor that more than few 'words' can be seen as consistent with sentence structure. Clyde A. Winters, the translator making these claims, has found only two objects containing alleged African linguistics amongst thousands. Compare that to the La Mojarra Stela, an Olmec monument with a language consistent with later Mayan writings and clearly a consistent and coherent whole that subsequently opened up the linguistic system of this late/post Olmec period. Just about every object examined in this light supports an indigenous development of the Olmec language. And that's just the linguistic side of things.

This is what you need to address, a more robust theory that takes into account and explains more facts than the current theory. If you can't do that, don't bother.



#9055: — 11/16  at  10:12 AM
'K, Matt: If the current theory is that a bunch of hunter-gatherers were stumbling around from one carcass to another and suddenly decided to involve themselves astonomy, cyclical plantings and monumental achetecture, then I don't need to put forth a new theory, the current one is moribund.

On a related note, has any DNA research been done regarding the infusion of Chinese or Japanese DNA into Meso-America? Even knowing that Absaroka and the Uto-Shoshone Languages are Sinitc, and that the base stock for the Americas was probably Yakut, I've seen metric shitloads of Mexicans who looked distinctly Japanese and/or Chinese.

Early linguists, both Spanish scholar-clerics and the dreaded, racially intolerant, oppressive, land thieving, treaty breaking, esteem-lowering, missionary positioning, Bible-thumping, repeating rifle-using, whiskey proffering loser Yanqui types noted an extreme diversity among the languages of the Indians (Wagon-Burner, not Elephant Washer) of California. Something like 28 language families. Even in dealing with non-written languages, and allowing for confusion or distant links, this was an astounding number for such a resricted area. How many of them were influenced or originated with Asians fleeing the latest upstart regimes?

As for publishing a paper, cool idea. It had never occurred to me, and what a fine excuse to go to Mexico and drink fabulous margaritas. Maybe I could find a way to shoot or at least examine a 1934 Mendoza light machinegun (and in 7x57, my fave!). Mexico, with the largest number of living languages of almost any place on the planet, might have some interesting leads. There might be some simple tech. terms which have Japanese or Chinese roots. You know, the terms for pyramid, bureaucracy, mass agriculture, fine art, sculpture, whiney art critic, puking accomodationist liberal, Neville Chamberlain, etc.

"Some of my best friends..."? Well, no, not now, but they have been in the past. And maybe in the future. I don't worry about being the Ugly American. Everyplace I've lived everyone has known that I was a Yankee white guy, proud of it, and just dying to learn more about them. Whoever buys the beer (or the chai), we laugh way too much.

Matt, it's OK to be yourself, and no, IKEA is not a culture.



#9079: mattH — 11/16  at  01:27 PM
You're just as bad as the creationists, Richard. Mistate opponent's arguments, change arguments as one is crushed, appeal to "impossible complexity" to disregard arguments, constant insults, long meandering bits of information with no relevancy.

I'd continue addressing the points you bring up, but what would be the point? The only thing I'm likely to get are more insults, shifts in arguments, and obtuse ignorance on your part.

Simply put, go ahead and have your last insult, think you've won, whatever, but it's pretty sad when even Bob think's you're odd.



#9084: — 11/16  at  01:51 PM
Well, he may be odd, but he just bested you in the argumentsmile

[ knock it off, Bob. Yours, the Management ]



#9094: mattH — 11/16  at  02:32 PM
Thanks PZ. I appreciate that.



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