#51361: Linkmeister — 11/30  at  02:54 PM
Now that's clever.

#51363: Banana Slug — 11/30  at  03:04 PM
Well, we know the 1 vote against wasn't Kerry Livgren, who went all kinds of born again in the 80's. Cute.

#51364: Mrs Tilton — 11/30  at  03:13 PM
Y'know, it's ironic, given some of the stuff PZ has been presenting for our delectation lately, but until I followed the link, I thought this was serious. IIANM some or all of the (musical) Kansans are indeed born-again Christians (and might even have obtained ministers' licences). Still, though those of you in the USA might scarce credit it, there are one or two Christians who are not IDolaters. The posted headlines are, however, too close to redstate reality to be immediately apparent as a joke.

Mind you, Kansas are crap. They are astonishingly, world-historically crap. They'd be crap even if they not only rejected ID but published, open-source, the entire human proteome, plus offered a unified field theory, squared the circle and created cold fusion into the bargain. They'd be great scientists in that case, sure; but, much more importantly, as a band they'd still be crap.

And that goes for their drummer, too.

#51369: — 11/30  at  03:38 PM
"The People . . . of the South Wind
Are not cousins to chimpanze-hees
The People . . . of the South Wind
Turn to be irreducibly complex"

Hey, this is fun.

#51370: — 11/30  at  03:45 PM
They had, by my memory, exactly two good songs. Everything else was thoroughly forgettable.

#51371: Kristine Harley — 11/30  at  03:48 PM
Oh, I don't know. Kansas are crap for sure, but will never suck as much as REO Speedwagon.

"IDolators!" I love it!

#51372: — 11/30  at  04:04 PM
Small world: I know the guy who was the original drummer for the band that ultimately became Kansas.

Ironic fact: he's a self-identifying born-again Christian.

Double irony: he's not a creationist.

#51375: — 11/30  at  04:14 PM
Lt. Kizhe wrote: "They had, by my memory, exactly two good songs."

Which two?

#51376: — 11/30  at  04:21 PM
The drummer as the voice of reason?! Ha!

#51377: — 11/30  at  04:22 PM
So where does that leave Texas?

#51383: Jeremy — 11/30  at  05:09 PM
Aquariussssssssssssss...

Anybody see The 40-Year-Old Virgin?

"How hard did the people at the frame store laugh at you when you brought this in?"

#51386: Raven — 11/30  at  05:26 PM
Beautiful, Mrs. Tilton, just--beautiful. *sniff*

#51404: — 11/30  at  07:22 PM
Dust in the Wind
Wayward Son
Point of Know Return
(OK, three)

#51406: — 11/30  at  07:40 PM
REO had one great song- Golden Country. the lyrics are progressive and the live version rocks!

#51410: — 11/30  at  08:19 PM
Lt. Kizhe wrote:

"Dust in the Wind
Wayward Son
Point of Know Return"

Just as I suspected. You appear to equate goodness with making "America's Top 40": Kansas is lousy because they had few pop hits. Judging by the bands Mrs. Tilton lauds on her blog, she thinks Kansas is lousy for essentially the opposite reason: it's too mainstream. Mutually exclusive reasons leading to the same complaint. Sometimes it seems that there's a parallel with Pharygulites' dislike for Christian fundamentalists: One person says they're insane for not seeing how science has undermined their faith. Another says they're insane because they just don't get that science is based on *methodological*, not metaphysical, naturalism, and that Darwinism is wholly compatible with Christianity.

But back to more important things: Have either Lt. Kizhe or Mrs. Tilton actually listened to a Kansas album?

#51411: — 11/30  at  08:31 PM
I could see a bit of restraint in this post.
I bet PZ had rewritten it few times. He probably had a draft with a scathing attack on "Those idiots! I knew they sounded like creationists back in the eighties! This is MY point of no return. I thought the band was crap anyway!" Then after much huffing and puffing, just left the last line.
Didn't want to admit to taking a joke too seriously. Like Mrs. Tilton.

#51421: — 11/30  at  10:08 PM

You appear to equate goodness with making "America's Top 40":

How you got that out of what I wrote, I have no idea. In music, I equate good with "what I like". And I happened to like those songs. That's all. I frequently hated the Top 40 -- when I was aware of it, which I haven't been for almost 30 years.

Have either Lt. Kizhe or Mrs. Tilton actually listened to a Kansas album?

I was never a fan. The only album I've ever listened to was "Best of...", which I acquired much later. And those are the only songs I can even remember off that album. Thus, my opinion expressed above, with which you appear to disagree (though I'm uncertain in which direction).

#51423: — 11/30  at  10:46 PM
I can tell you one thing, those best of compilations are utter crap. Often times, the best music is hidden in the albums and the most popular songs aren't necessarily the "best". Being an audiophile, i personally own over 7,000 albums and can tell you that by listening to some record execs best of cash-in, you are missing out on a whole lot. Give it a try once, especially with a prog band like Kansas, with which listening to the whole album can be much more fulfilling.

#51440: — 12/01  at  04:00 AM
A confused woman thinks her door has the eyes of Jesus watching her:

http://69.46.24.198/~gkko/media/609/jesus.wmv

A case of Intelligent Door.

#51446: Mrs Tilton — 12/01  at  05:54 AM
Nat,

don't let the five LPs that appear in my sidebar at the moment lead you to incorrect conclusions about why I dislike Kansas. At other moments, they might include Le nozze di Figaro or Take Five rather than Metal Box. For that matter, they might include Rubber Soul; pop doesn't get any more mainstream than that, and nor does it get any better. The gravamen of my complaint against Kansas is not that they are 'too mainstream' but that they are, as I said, crap.

And by 'crap' I mean that they were dull, overwrought, pretentious, boring, mediocre; worth neither my spending money nor my listening time. If my opinion seems a little harsh to you, let me answer your question by saying yes, I have heard albums by Kansas. I spent the late 1970s living in New York and it seems to me that at times I heard little else but Leftoverture and Point of Know Return (and that litle else was usually by Styx and thus even worse). I have had more Kansas inflicted on me than anybody should be made to bear in a civilised society, and I still resent the fact.

BTW, as for Kansas being too 'mainstream': if anything, their, emm, mainstreamosity mitigated their awfulness. They didn't want to be mainstream; they wanted to be ELP. But bless their little midwestern hearts, they could never manage to be quite that hideously bad. There are things worse than mainstream mediocrity; considered in the progrock-dinosaur context, Kansas are actually among the least bad of a very bad lot.

But I am nothing if not liberal and anyway, de gustibus and all that. If you enjoy Kansas's music, by all means let it blare from the speakers of the Whilk household morning, noon and night. Sure wouldn't the world be a dull place if we all thought alike.

#51447: — 12/01  at  06:57 AM
Applauding wildly, Outeast seriously considers starting music magazine just so as to be able to offer Mrs Tilton a position on staff.

#51454: — 12/01  at  08:44 AM
Lt. Kizhe wrote: "How you got that out of what I wrote, I have no idea."

What you wrote was that Kansas had "exactly two [or was it three?] good songs. Everything else was thoroughly forgettable." While "Point of Know Return" was one of Kansas's three chart-toppers, I know of no one who's actually familiar with the Kansas oeuvre who thinks it stands out in quality from the rest of their songs.

"The only album I've ever listened to was 'Best of...'"

And so you felt qualified to comment on "[e]verthing else" they did . . . why? If I think the Beatles' "One" isn't worth buying (at less than 50 cents per #1 hit) should I stop lamenting that I can't buy "Julia" or "Blackbird" or "A Day in the Life" at iTMS?

Mrs. Tilton writes: "If my opinion seems a little harsh to you, . . ."

Ah, it was your opinion. It seemed to me as if you were presenting the crapulence of Kansas as an objective fact. (Another parallel to the problems in the science and religion discussions?)

". . . let me answer your question by saying yes, I have heard albums by Kansas. I spent the late 1970s living in New York and it seems to me that at times I heard little else but Leftoverture and Point of Know Return"

Really? I had no idea Kansas so dominated the New York music scene. What was your specific beef with "The Spider"? "Miracles out of Nowhere"? Do you have an opinion on "Two Cents Worth"? On "Bringing it Back"?

"considered in the progrock-dinosaur context, Kansas are actually among the least bad of a very bad lot."

So it's the genre you object to. You hate 70s prog/arena rock; I hate hip-hop and dodecaphonism. I can live with that.

#51458: — 12/01  at  09:05 AM
As for the cartoon, I thought it was funny but it would have been funnier if there were a little more to the joke than the fact that Kansas is both the name of a state and of a band. Kansas (the band) "championed science"? When? Did Phil Ehart have one of those face transplants so that he looks like Robby Steinhardt in the inset photo?

#51465: — 12/01  at  10:09 AM
It occurred to me last night that "The Point of Know Return" (the album of which I once saw framed as art in a Lebanese restaurant!) might well serve as the name for some Dembskian concept, as in, where so much is known (or not known) about evolution, that the theory is irretrievable. Like, since every transitional fossil creates more gaps, someday the number of gaps will become so large that we will reach the Point of Know Return!

I'll return to work now.

#51468: Mrs Tilton — 12/01  at  10:23 AM
How pleasant it is to run across you in the 'blogosphere' every now and then, Nat.

Ah, it was your opinion. It seemed to me as if you were presenting the crapulence of Kansas as an objective fact.

But of course their crapulence (or otherwise) would be a matter of objective fact. It shouldn't surprise me to learn that Kansas had at one time or another been crapulent; most of us have been at some point. But then with clean-living folk from the heartland one never knows.

In any event, I wasn't talking abut Kansas being crapulent but about their music being crap; which is not altogether the same thing. And I should have thought it amply clear that, when one says 'such-and-such a band is crap', one is expressing an opinion.

(Another parallel to the problems in the science and religion discussions?)

I don't think so. I don't see many problems in the 'science and religion discussions', because there are very few such discussions. For the most part there are discussions (if one can call them that) between science and bizarre fringe sectaries; and that is not the same thing at all. The fringe sectaries don't speak for Christianity, much less for 'religion' in some abstract sense; but they are capable of embarrassing other Christians. (True, one also hears the occasional embarrassing thing said by village-atheist types. But then as I am not an atheist, I'm not the one to feel embarrassment at this.)

I had no idea Kansas so dominated the New York music scene.

I'm sure they didn't, but then I was a mite young to get into CBGB in those days. Kansas certainly got more than their fair share of radio play (mostly, but not only, the few big hits; in those days stations like WNEW, if I have remembered its name correctly, would often play the 'other' tracks from popular albums; in itself a commendable practice). And they sold more than their fair share of albums; among others, to a number of my friends, who would insist on playing them for me. (These friends had compensatory qualities, not least that they would sit without much complaint when I made them listen to Give 'em Enough Rope).

What was your specific beef with "The Spider"? "Miracles out of Nowhere"? Do you have an opinion on "Two Cents Worth"? On "Bringing it Back"?

Assuming the songs you mention are on the handful of Kansas albums I'd have been exposed to, my specific beef with 'The Spider' and 'Miracles out of Nowhere' is that they were crap. Under the same assumption, my opinion on 'Two Cents Worth' and 'Bringing it Back' is this: they are part of what struck me as an undifferentiated mass of crap. The songs you name are superior to the two or three 'hits' somebody mentioned above only in that, having received less radio play back then, they are less likely now to become present to my memory at the mention of their titles.

These songs certainly seem to be important to you, though. But that's okay. Everybody should have a hobby.

So it's the genre you object to.

No; try to pay closer attention to what I write, not to what you imagine I must mean. What I object to about Kansas is that they are crap, 'crap' being defined as in my earlier comment.

It's true that I have little use for the genre they're generally put in, and that there are a number of bands from that genre I dislike even more. But there is some Jethro Tull (for example) that I can listen to with surprisingly little irritation, and I have a lot of time for Led Zeppelin (the latter, admittedly, somewhat questionably 'prog' if unquestionably 'arena').

You hate 70s prog/arena rock; I hate hip-hop and dodecaphonism. I can live with that.

Ah, agreement to disagree. The best we could have hoped for, under the circumstances. As it happens I quite like some De La Soul and Public Enemy but otherwise find hiphop deeply annoying; and am at any rate happy to concur unreservedly WRT 12-tone.