#8617: Chris Clarke — 11/09  at  02:37 PM
The only nuance I'd ask for here is to be careful of conflating reactionary theocrats and their allies with "the heartland," as even a solid Bush state like Nebraska had hundreds of thousands of Kerry voters in it. It's unfair to lump them in with the fascists. We need them.

As long as we remember that, I have no problem taking the gloves off.

#8621: — 11/09  at  02:59 PM
I heard this quote attributed to the late, great Frank Zappa: "Real life isn't like university, it's like high school." Much of the discussion prior to and following the election has reminded me of this.

#8623: PZ Myers — 11/09  at  03:21 PM
I'm aware of the distinction—I live in the 'heartland'!

#8625: apostropher — 11/09  at  03:33 PM
Well, whaddayaknow? Great minds and all that. Somehow, I missed the "Liberals Under the Bed" one. I intend to keep the list within arm's reach for rapid smackdown purposes. Being raised by Southern liberals, I have a tendency toward reflexive politeness that I have to sublimate, but perusing that list of my various moral failings and inherent perfidies, sublimation is becoming quite a bit easier.

As Ogged says: One salutary result of the election is that we blue-staters (speaking spiritually, of course), finally feel free to say, "Oh, fuck you already" to the red-staters.

#8626: apostropher — 11/09  at  03:34 PM
And I've lived my entire life in North Carolina, for what it's worth.

#8628: — 11/09  at  03:44 PM
I have to agree. Nothing worse than hypersensitive, namby-pamby conservatives who can't take it, but always like to dish it out...

Say, Apostropher, I have a question: How does it feel to lose 2 real close elections in a row?

Professor Myers,

I think the real lesson has to be that it’s time to take off the gloves and spike these jerks hard.

I'm not sure its a bright idea to use "Jerk" and "Hard" in the same sentence. Potential for unpleasant double entendres, and unsightly visuals

#8630: — 11/09  at  03:52 PM
"I’m not sure its a bright idea to use “Jerk” and “Hard” in the same sentence."

Somehow it seems completely appropriate when the name 'Bob Flynn'is also in the sentence.

#8631: — 11/09  at  03:59 PM
Well, firstpusk, I'm not the one "taking off the gloves" to "spike" anyone But, I didn't do too well in my classes in Freud in college, so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

#8633: — 11/09  at  04:10 PM
I'm all in favor of using soft words and hard arguments, which helps keep the rhetorical signal-to-noise ratio closer to 1.0 than zero. Feelings need not apply. If someone gets upset because it's pointed out to them that they're wrong about something, it's nothing to be ashamed about.

#8634: Chris Clarke — 11/09  at  04:33 PM
I wasn't worried about *you* getting that distinction, PZ. I just think devastating insults are better when phrased precisely, is all.

#8635: PZ Myers — 11/09  at  04:45 PM
I fear there is little point in holding back the insults. Look where it's gotten us: compared to the Republicans, the Democrats were restrained and deferential to all groups, and even now we've got nitwits on this site claiming that Kerry was a closet Christian-hating atheist, and that Democrats think everyone in the middle of the country is stupid. In the absence of insults, they put them in our mouths.

I think this situation is much like the complaint that Democrats lacked a sharply defined narrative. I think what we need to do is stop being cautious, and go ahead and cuss out the idiots...but we have to be specific about our targets.

I think if we were clear that we think goddamned worthless neo-cons and theocrats are despicable scum, it would be easier to deflect the complaint that we think all christians are despicable scum.

#8636: — 11/09  at  04:55 PM
As Jim Weaver, former congressman from Lane County Oregon used to say, he had a respectful disagreement with principled conservatives, unfortunately pretty much everyone in congress who claimed to be a conservative was actually a corporate hack or religious wacko.

#8638: apostropher — 11/09  at  06:06 PM
Bob Flynn,

Oh, fuck you already. ;)

#8639: — 11/09  at  06:31 PM
Heh. I think the country just did that to Kerry last Tuesday

#8648: mattH — 11/10  at  04:05 AM
firstpusk, apostropher, ignore Bob. He's pretty much harmless once he's ignored. Ironically enough, he doesn't like listening just to himself.

Interesting bit about Joe. The moments of incoherence are almost disturbing.