Pharyngula

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Wednesday, April 06, 2005

I love our students!

What else can I say? UMM students are the best.

I attended Paul Nelson's talk here at the university this evening, and I wasn't impressed. It went on too long—about an hour and a quarter—and I think he was actually cutting his own throat in the first half. He was being careful to set up the scientific issues, so he spent a fair bit of time building up with relatively non-controversial material: a definition of evolution (organisms related by common descent by natural causes), an admission that having open questions is not a shortcoming in science (that one really came back to bite him in the ass later), and giving examples of unsolved problems that are poorly formed and predicated on incorrect assumptions, and are therefore invalid. About half of the audience consisted of faculty and students from the science division, and I think they were familiar with this kind of thing, were a bit bored, and pent up some bloodlust…not a good strategy with a mob of evilutionists.

Then there was a section where he focused on developmental biology. I really appreciate the plug he gave for the importance of development for understanding evolution, but I found his discussion aggravating. I don't know if the rest of the audience found his points as flawed as I did, but the argument was extremely weak. He was trying to set up the processes of early development as refractory to change, and that evolution was therefore unable to act on them. Unfortunately, in every case, he used as examples highly derived forms with determinate early cleavages—Halocynthia, Drosophila, C. elegans—that were of course resistant to changes in their early development. If he'd instead discussed more plastic, regulative organisms, like vertebrates or echinoderms, it would have contradicted the point he was making. It was a selective presentation of the evidence that was obvious to me; I had a few of my developmental biology students there who also, I hope, recognized what he was doing.

He also trotted out a series of quotes from serious biologists such as James Valentine and Wallace Arthur who argue that there is more to evolutionary history than selection. Again, though, it was misleading: I know that these people are no friends of intelligent design creationism, and what it really was was a kind of verbal quote-mining that will only persuade the already converted and annoy those who recognize what he is doing.

I'm afraid the talk really disintegrated in its closing section. It was an unconvincing hodge-podge that somehow led to the idea of an agency within organisms. Or something. His analogy was clever, but very weird. He used part of the Gettysburg Address, a call for sacrifice and dedication, and broke it down into its constituent words. Then he took those same words and rearranged them into an anarchist's manifesto, the point being that meaning doesn't reside in the component elements, but in the intent and arrangement imposed on them by the agency of the author…an interesting point that he then demolished by using it as an analogy for the action of genes: genes are the words, and we can have the same words, such as the 'master control gene' for eye formation, that have different effects in flies and mice. In one it triggers the formation of a compound eye, in the other a simple lens eye. Sadly, his explanation had something to do with agency. That somehow, the higher level properties of the organism impose a different meaning on the genes, in the same sense that his intent could change the meaning of the words of the Gettysburg Address.

The problem here is that we can trace how the master control gene induces different structures to form in different organisms (much of developmental biology is dedicated to basically step-tracing gene effects as development unfolds), and it has been very successful at that. Nowhere do we need to invoke intent or a designer or unseen global properties of the organism, and nowhere have we ever needed the Intelligent Design hypothesis to guide our work. It's all gene interaction and natural processes, and it's an example of the uselessness of ID, and the power of evo-devo.

The best part of the evening, though, was when Nelson opened up the floor to questions. He was kept hopping for the next hour and a half; a few of us faculty spoke up, but mainly it was our students who hammered him with awkward questions. You know, simple stuff like asking him for evidence for ID. A few mentioned the negative nature of his argument, and reminded him that "having open questions is not a shortcoming". I was impressed and proud, although I can't take credit for it: we don't have any classes where we specifically coach our students in critiquing creationists, although they do get a grounding in what to expect of a good scientific theory. Nelson kept up a cheerful front, but I don't think the Q&A was going in exactly the direction he expected.

In fact, in that 90 minutes of grilling, he only got one comment from a pro-creationist attendee, and it was basically, "it's all a matter of opinion; there aren't any transitional fossils; and evolution is all based on faith, anyway." To Nelson's credit, he looked more uncomfortable with that ill-informed point than all the criticisms he was getting. It must be hard to live with the fact that all of your friends are morons.

Man, though, but our students are good. I left that talk feeling very optimistic, that there is hope for the future of science in this country when our students can be that strong and informed and critical.

I hope Nelson can now convince his pals at the Discovery Institute to send a few more sacrificial lambs out to friendly UMM. The students would have a grand time eating Dembski and Behe and Meyer and Richards and whoever alive. Hey, maybe we could agree to send just the freshman class up against them. Not that it would change the outcome, but it would prolong the sport a bit more.


You don't have to just take my word for it all—there are a few other webloggers here at UMM, and a couple of them attended the talk, too. Nic McPhee concurs with my opinion of UMM students, and one of our students is too angry to talk about it.


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Comments:
#21203: — 04/06  at  11:14 PM
How good it is to hear that! Minnesotans didn't fail us! Nelson is going to be in Steubenville Saturday to give a presentation to an IDEA club at at a Franciscan college. I was thinking about driving over, but I'm afraid the audience won't be nearly as perceptive as your students and I might pop a carotid. Sonce I've only got one operating nowadays maybe I'll spare it the strain.



#21204: coturnix — 04/06  at  11:29 PM
You must be proud! Wonderful! I love your students, too!



#21205: John Wilkins — 04/06  at  11:36 PM
I have long thought Paul Nelson is the most honest of the IDevotees. Did you have a meal with him afterwards? It might have been fun.

Nelson is the student of a well-respected philosopher of biology, Bill Wimsatt. I have his thesis, and it Doesn't Suck, although it's no literary masterpiece. I think that being in the ID crowd has corrupted him, though



#21206: — 04/07  at  12:17 AM
Re master eye control genes. For the uninitiated, what he is talking about is Pax6 and the Drosophila homolog eyeless.

This week, I defended my PhD on work submitted on eyeless (ey) in fly eye development. It is pretty clear that ey/Pax6, and its closely associated downstream targets, are just DNA binding proteins. In fact, the fact they they are still controlling eye development is pretty remarkable. I think he really picked the wrong example, though -- the different kinds of eye development really reflect the genetic mechanisms of divergent organogenesis and give us interesting insights on the actual molecular mechanisms of macroevolution.

Since the origin of this core genetic network in an early bilaterate, eye development has been nothing but divergence. And that is exactly what you see on the genetic level. A great example is the ciliary versus rhabdomeric photoreceptor. Crx controls ciliary PR development; Pax6 generally controls rhabdomeric PR development. The use of these two pathways is highly variable through evolution. In vertebrate eyes, Pax6-specified rhabdomeric PRs have become degenerate and adopted new function as the retinal ganglion cells, while ciliary PRs are used as light sensors. In Drosophila, cells derived from ciliary PRs and specified by drx are used in central brain structures. Some species use both.

Cooption of genetic pathways is found throughout development. The Pax/Eya/Six network has roles in nephrogenesis and ear development in the vertebrate (as well as in the eye). New eye structures come under the same control as older eye genes -- for instance Piatigorsky's work on the evolution of the regulation of lens crystallins. As you mention, nothing implies design, and everything implies chance events that we see so often in evolution. That it can so nicely be traced back to anatomic diversity (and at times, even linked as causative to the anatomic divergence) gives us wonderful insights into the mechanisms of evolution.



#21209: Andrew Brown — 04/07  at  02:52 AM
Then he took those same words and rearranged them into an anarchist's manifesto, the point being that meaning doesn't reside in the component elements, but in the intent and arrangement imposed on them by the agency of the author…an interesting point that he then demolished by using it as an analogy for the action of genes: genes are the words, and we can have the same words, such as the 'master control gene' for eye formation, that have different effects in flies and mice. In one it triggers the formation of a compound eye, in the other a simple lens eye. Sadly, his explanation had something to do with agency. That somehow, the higher level properties of the organism impose a different meaning on the genes, in the same sense that his intent could change the meaning of the words of the Gettysburg Address.

But surely this bit is true, even though it doesn't prove ID. The meaning of any given sequence (and its visibility to selection, or effect on fitness) is not intrinsic to it at all. In fact there's extra-sequential meaning at two levels at least. First, we can't read out in a straightforward way the proteins coded for by any given sequence: variable splicings means that different proteins can be produced by the same sequence. Secondly, the same proteins can be used in hugely different ways depending on where and in which organisms they find themselves. Thirdly, it occurs to me, reading the posts above, similar cells can be recruited into different networks.

In all these cases, the meaning, or the function is not genetically determined, but imposed in the genes by the next level of complexity. It is the cell in which a gene finds itself which determines whether and how a gene will be expressed. It is the organism within which the cell finds itself which determines what this expression will do; and it is the environment within which the organism finds itself that determines whether this expression will be advantageous or not. All these chains of causality have no doubt originated through natural selection and are maintained by it. But they're there, they're real, and they're top down.

Two points stop this from being an argument for ID. The first is that we have no reason to believe that the universe as a whole is the kind of thing which can constrain its constituent parts. The second is that until human genetic engineers came along, there was no way for anything to affect the meaning more than one layer down, so to say.



#21210: — 04/07  at  04:58 AM
Makes me wonder what would happen if someone like that came to my campus. I am at a relatively conservative liberal arts college in PA. We even had a republican campaign event with Dick Cheney on campus. Anyway, one of our best student who has done research with me, presented at the annual Society for Neuroscience meeting, and has been accepted into several prestigious Ph.D. programs, was completely oblivious when she heard me speaking with some other faculty about the PA bill in the legislature allowing ID to be taught in school. She had never heard of ID.

This isn't surprising for our students. Another teacher brought up the Terry Schiavo case a couple weeks ago in a class about consciousness, and only about 1/2 of the students had heard of it.

I'm wondering how we can best make our students aware of things like ID without giving it formal recognition in classes.



#21211: — 04/07  at  05:29 AM
PZ, it doesn't matter what the actual results of the evening were for IDers, what matters to them is how the event is reported afterwards. Make sure to follow up with your local newsies as they try to be "fair and balanced" with their coverage too.



#21212: coturnix — 04/07  at  06:41 AM
Nelson is taken seriously enough that he was even allowed to publish in "Biology and Philosophy":

Paul Nelson "The Role of Theology in Current Evolutionary Reasoning"
Biology and Philosophy 11: 493-517 (1996). p. 495

I remember that Kelly Smith wrote a response somewhere immediately, but I cannot currently find it. Much later, Smith had a longer response:

Kelly C. Smith. "Appealing to Ignorance Behind the Cloak of Ambiguity." In Intelligent Design Creationism and Its Critics: Philosophical, Theological, and Scientific Perspectives, 705-735. Edited by Robert T. Pennock. Cambridge: The MIT Press, 2001.

Interesting (and IDC-sided) view of the exchange:

http://www.arsdisputandi.org/publish/articles/000079/article.htm

That is the line taken by Kelly Smith in a (rather ill-tempered) response to Paul Nelson. (Incidentally, I think that Smith misunderstood Nelson's intent, which was to raise questions about the process by which naturalistic evolutionists dismiss creationist alternative explanations. Nelson was attempting to suggest some defeater-defeaters, as epistemologists would call them, rather than attempting to construct a positive case for creationism, as Smith seems to have read him.) Concerning methodological naturalism and science, Smith says:

MN [methodological naturalism] is, after all, methodological. It is part of the very nature of science to be open to new possibilities, and it is not in the business of ruling things impossible. Science is in the business of trying to figure out which explanations‚ out of all those (including theological ones, at least in principle) that might be true‚ are more likely to be true. Science does tend to shy away from theological explanations, but on purely methodological grounds. The rule "don't involve divine mechanisms in a scientific explanation" is simply a rule of thumb (though a good one)‚ it does not say that such explanations are unacceptable in principle, much less that it's impossible they are correct. [Smith, p. 713, his emphasis]

Smith says this in support of his assertion that Nelson is confused about the very nature of methodological naturalism. But nearly everyone, including nearly everyone on Smith's own side of the ID issue‚ would be surprised to hear that science is [Smith's emphasis] in principle in the business of evaluating theological explanations, and that prohibitions to the contrary are mere rules of thumb, to be jettisoned if need be.



's avatar #21213: PZ Myers — 04/07  at  06:53 AM
Yes, Andrew, I agree -- Pax-6 (that is the gene he was talking about) doesn't mean anything in isolation. It has a role in the organism only in the context of all of those other downstream genes and its own regulators. When we look at those, though, what we see are what Ed just described: molecular interactions that are actually rather abstract when described. Where Nelson erred was in trying to ascribe that to some top-level property of the organism as a whole, implying intent or agency to the properties of a bunch of transcription factors.

Ron, we don't introduce our students to ID either. I think what happens is that if you cultivate students with some smarts and some ability to think for themselves, they can be good at detecting bullshit when they hear it.

I did spend some one-on-one time with him, John, and I agree that he's a nice guy who's relatively well read, and I think he honestly believes...but I also think he has been deluding himself. He's got a deep-down commitment to this metaphysical stuff, and I think his approach to the science is to try to squeeze God out of a turnip; he's got to be in there, if only we can find the best analogy to invent him.

That's a good point, David. I think I'll call the local paper and see if they are doing anything with it.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#21214: — 04/07  at  07:02 AM
This editorial cartoon is mostly on-topic.

http://cagle.slate.msn.com/politicalcartoons/PCcartoons/powell.asp



#21215: — 04/07  at  07:04 AM
PZ, I am desperately envious of the students you have! Large numbers of ours fall for the 'Gish gallop' type presentation with nary a peep. Fall? Hell, throat it down hook, line, sinker, rod, reel, boat, motor, trailer and attached F-150.

UMM wouldn't happen to need a slightly used mineralogist/geochemist, would they?

Sigh...



#21216: Wesley R. Elsberry — 04/07  at  07:32 AM
Concerning Nelson's argument on "theological themata"...

Nelson presented that at the 1997 "Naturalism, Theism, and the Scientific Enterprise" conference. I posted a response to the NTSE listserve and the Calvin Evolution list a bit later.

http://www.asa3.org/archive/evolution/199904/0166.html

Nelson's notion of theological themes cuts both ways, though, since most of what are billed as "predictions" of "intelligent design" are actually premised on a theological theme concerning a designer, not on any scientifically principled derivation from content of "intelligent design".



#21217: Reed A. Cartwright — 04/07  at  07:36 AM
NJ, You probably don't need to go as far as UMM. UNC Asheville,which is a public liberal arts school, is probably comparative. And Asheville is much cooler than Morris.



's avatar #21219: PZ Myers — 04/07  at  07:56 AM
Nuh-uh, is not. We hit -30°F in January. The lakes are still partially frozen (but thawing fast now).

Besides, we were just advertising for a new geology hire...it's a little late now, unless the search fails.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#21220: — 04/07  at  08:00 AM
Sigh....it makes me cry for my dear Rutgers, where - even as a night student - I've seen far more enthusiastic receptions given to ID presentations than I'd care to think about. I've even seen everyone's favorite snake oil salesman, Dr. Dino, debate Dr. Robert Trivers to overflow seating and standing ovations for Hovind's Powerpoint wizardry. Heck, at the last ID presentation I went to, I was the only representative of reason there who spoke up - and I'm not even in any of the natural sciences departments there.

I'm depressed now.



's avatar #21221: PZ Myers — 04/07  at  08:05 AM
I think PowerPoint is the only thing creationists are good at.

(and that is a seriously underhanded compliment.)

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



's avatar #21223: ajmilne — 04/07  at  08:11 AM
... He was kept hopping for the next hour and a half; a few of us faculty spoke up, but mainly it was our students who hammered him with awkward questions...

That really is lovely to hear. Thanks.



#21226: Ron Sullivan — 04/07  at  08:32 AM
It's encouraging to hear that UMM students were so on-target in their questions. I wonder if any liberal-arts types thought of mentioning that Nelson's little analogy works in English, but not in any number of other languages in which meaning is conveyed by inflections of individual words. That while it's a cute little cartoon and all, it proves nothing and demonstrates little.

Do you suppose he's got a spare analogy in his pocket, or has he got his head shoved so far up his metaphor that his whole worldview is mucous membrane?

(We'll barbeque that Irish Bull in my backyard tonight if the rain goes away.)



#21227: Milo Johnson — 04/07  at  08:57 AM
Thank goodness there are some scientific minds at your school. I am in the physics department at a college in Kansas, and I fear most of my students would have been the audience for which he was hoping.



#21228: — 04/07  at  09:03 AM
It must be hard to live with the fact that all of your friends are morons.


Perhaps, like Jerry Seinfeld, he actually prefers the company of nitwits.



#21230: — 04/07  at  09:40 AM
Actually Reed, UNC Asheville is nearly along strike from us and in the same state, so we are both drawing from pretty much the same pool of students. Boone is a lot like Asheville in style, just a good bit smaller; oddly enough, Appalachian is, I think, larger than UNC Asheville.



#21234: Reed A. Cartwright — 04/07  at  10:48 AM
UNC Asheville and AppState might have the same pool, but my understanding is that UNC Asheville gets higher calliber students. I could be wrong, though.



#21236: — 04/07  at  10:55 AM
Well, my limited exposure to Nic McPhee left me with impression that he is a decent and interesting fellow. His post today (and the rest of his blog) reinforces that.

No doubt that time he spent in Oregon is responsible for his fine character.



#21241: — 04/07  at  11:53 AM
Several of these ID advocates are "nice guys" in the sense that they shower regularly, brush their teeth, avoid profanity, and are not bomb-throwing anarchists. On the other hand, they ARE true believers, and they don't hesitate to throw the bomb if they think it will produce "productive" results for their own kind of -archy or -ocracy, whatever that may be at the moment.

Miller talks about having breakfast with (Morris or Gish, I forget which) after having met in debate the night before. Miller complimented him on holding the line for creationism despite the evidence -- and Miller was surprised to discover that the guy genuinely didn't recognize the evidence.

I saw Behe in front of classes of microbiologists at the University of Texas at Arlington. Behe was very comfortable with them, even conceding common descent, but holding to the line that flagella could not be designed. When several students presented three or four different possible evolutionary pathways, he simple said no one had looked. They produced the citations, from good journals -- he said he was unaware . . .

It's not about science. It's about "worldview." The ID folk genuinely believe that biology books teach "there is no God, and therefore there is no basis for morality."

We cannot reason people out of opinions they didn't get to by reason.



#21243: — 04/07  at  12:20 PM
That's kind of funny, because this Tuesday I sat through a seminar given by Sean Carroll, who gave an excellent talk about evo-devo in pigmentation patterns of Drosophila wings, and then closed his talk with a call to battle against the same sort of morons that you had listen to on Wednesday.

I think that as long as informed people speak up in public for science (Carroll's valid point was that the rejection of evolution by creationists is really a rejection of science itself),as long as we do our part to inform those that are willing to listen, then we've a fighting chance to hold off the Dark Ages. Carroll argued that we need to find religious leaders that do find harmony with science and religion (they exist, they're just not particularly loud) to show that this isn't a battle against science versus God.



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