Pharyngula

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Thursday, September 22, 2005

I think they planned it this way

On Saturday, 24 September, I'm going to be speaking to the Minnesota Atheists, 1:30-2:30, at the Roseville Public Library (2180 Hamline Ave. N., Roseville, MN). The announced title is "Unintelligent Design", but we came up with that a while back, when I was still a bit vague on what I was going to talk about. A better title now would be "Biology as a superior historical narrative"—I'm planning to tell some stories from evolutionary genetics, in the context of whether religion and science conflict (short answer: yes. And science is right.)

Just to irritate me, though…I mentioned the wacky religious component of my little town. A local church is bringing in some bozo named Brian Young of the Creation Instruction Association to give a talk on, you guessed it, their idiotic version of history. He's a young earth creationist who wanders the country babbling this kind of nonsense:

First and foremost, we believe in the Triune God; the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as the Creator of the universe and Savior of all who believe in Christ. We believe in a literal 6 day, 24 hour creation and an earth only a few thousand years old is vital to Christianity (not salvation). We believe that science accurately supports what is clearly stated in Scripture and we accept these Scriptures as the inerrant Word of God.

I was salivating at the idea of going to this, and it wasn't because they were serving lunch. Look at this guy's poster (pdf)—he's going to talk about carbon dating, cave men in the bible, and dinosaurs living concurrently with humans. This is classic, old-style clueless creationism, and I really wanted a good afternoon's laugh, even if they are charging admission (creationism is a real racket, I tell you).

Then I saw the date: Saturday, 24 September, 10-2. Bastards. They scheduled it for the day I'm going off to talk to a bunch of atheists, sensible people who already know better. If any Morris people are going, let me know and I'll loan you my precious copy of The Counter-Creationism Handbook (amzn/b&n/abe/pwll). I won't even object if you bring it back with a few dents and bloodstains.

I mentioned that I was brought up Lutheran. The church I used to attend, though, was a low-key, reasonable sort of thing, like something you'd find at Lake Wobegon. They read the Bible and sponsored missionaries in Africa and had a Sunday School where we'd memorize verses and tell stories on a felt board, and yeah, we'd memorize the catechism and learn church doctrine. They never said a word about science, though—that just wasn't their schtick, and I'd have left the church even sooner if they'd started foaming at the mouth over empirically false gobbledygook about the way the world works. This speaker is being sponsored by Zion Lutheran Church of Morris. I admit to feeling a little regret at seeing my former sect degraded to this level of ignorant imbecility.


Trackback url: http://pharyngula.org/index/trackback/2976/wLnmp6CC/

Comments:
#41212: Matt McIrvin — 09/22  at  06:59 AM
"How does the Tabernacle give us a picture of heaven?"

Man! Is he going all Cosmas Indicopleustes on us?



#41213: — 09/22  at  07:05 AM
Sponsoring missionaries is hardly reasonable.



#41214: MAJeff — 09/22  at  07:12 AM
Lemme guess, Zion Lutheran Church is WELS.



#41216: — 09/22  at  07:14 AM
PZ,

Seems the solution to your problem is to gather up your merry band of atheists around 10, get on over to the church and slap him silly the way you did Birdnow. Or maybe if Dr. Hurd has some free time he can proxy for you. It would be too much to expect though that "Rev Dr" Lenny Flank could get there. I'd love to see that alligator wrasslin'!!!



's avatar #41217: PZ Myers — 09/22  at  07:22 AM
Alas, Morris is three hours away from Roseville. I need a time machine to do that, or a transporter.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#41219: — 09/22  at  07:42 AM
Are most of these creationists blonde/blue people? Are there different ethnic groups involved as well? Sorry if this is a crazy/stupid question - I just looked at the poster, and have seen some pictures of other creationists/IDers... The whole thing seems kind of creepy to me as well as insensible.



#41221: Johnny Vector — 09/22  at  07:49 AM
Huh. One of Mr. Young's books is entitled Genesis: Yesterday’s Answers to Today’s Problems.

Well yeah, I got no argument with that.



's avatar #41228: DouglasG — 09/22  at  08:25 AM
So many things to do on that Saturday, and so few clones...

Douglas E. Gogerty
-----
“No, I’m from Iowa. I just work in outer space.”
-James T. Kirk



#41231: — 09/22  at  08:35 AM
Not to worry PZ. There are plenty of creationists to go around. The local ChristianTalkRadio® station is sponsoring an official D. James Kennedy Creation Weekend.
http://www.kkms.com/subpage.asp?StationId=KKMS-AM&PageNo=112
You would need a ticket to go to the Saturday morning session, but it sure would get you juices going for you early afternoon presentation. I am doing safety/support for a whitewater canoeing trip this weekend or I would be there for entertainment.

The presenter has been featured on the afternoon show all week. Yesterday, he fumbled questions on the evolution of sexual reproduction and the development of air breathing by the first land animals. He kept wanting to talk about whales. Email me if you are interested in adding a little color to your creationist weekend. I'll arrange a ticket for you.



#41237: — 09/22  at  08:54 AM
Well, so long as you don't mind driving to catch all the crazy fundi action, then it looks like there is no shortage of creationism there in MN:

http://www.tccsa.tc/

I'd especially hate to miss Behe when he speaks at UM-East Bank

http://www.maclaurin.org/lectures.php



#41238: — 09/22  at  09:03 AM
At the aforementioned Minneapolis "creationism" event, Friday they are having a "debate" between a young earth creationist and an "old" earth creationist. That must be the creationist version of which form of Klingons(original series or Next Gen) are the "Correct" version.

Scott



#41244: — 09/22  at  09:15 AM
I noticed that "Yesterday's answers" thing. I find it remarkable that he doesn't realise how stupid that sounds, but then again, most of his audience probably don't think it's stupid either.



#41248: — 09/22  at  09:22 AM
The "Zion Lutheran Church of Morris" - that's just so appropriate for a YEC Church. I wonder if it's Henry they worship or John grin



#41250: — 09/22  at  09:37 AM
PZ,
I can't wait to hear your presentation. I live in St Paul just off of Hamline Ave only about two miles south of that library. I'm sorry that you will miss the YEC in Morris, but I'm glad you're coming to my neighborhood.



#41261: — 09/22  at  10:26 AM

#41237: Samuel Crane — 09/22 at 08:54 AM
I'd especially hate to miss Behe when he speaks at UM-East Bank

http://www.maclaurin.org/lectures.php

I see there's another IDC talk on October 27th by Dr. Michael Kent. Who is he?



#41263: ruidh — 09/22  at  10:33 AM
Zion Lutheran Church in Morris is a Missouri Synod congregation which, other than name, is a far cry from the Evangelical Lutheran Church you probably grew up in.

The Missouri Synod is the group who tried their East Coast coordinator for sycretism because he had the temerity to say a prayer at the Yankee Stadium prayer service after 9/11. LCMS is a bunch of whack job fundamentalists.



#41265: — 09/22  at  10:42 AM
Something else you'll miss:

Darwin, Design and Democracy V:

Science Converges on Design - from Cosmology to Paleontology to Biology

September 24-25, 2004
Woodward Hall, University of New Mexico
Albuquerque, New Mexico

Key design theorists and many others will lead you from the origin of life through the remarkable "recurrence of similar design solutions in different phylogenetic lineages, despite their absence in a common ancestor." A prominent question in biology today is "what drives this convergence?" Biochemist Michael Behe, PhD, Mathematician William Dembski, PhD and Chemist, Fazale Rana, Ph.D. and many others will discuss the data and why it seems to converge on design rather than a chance driven Darwinian process.
...



#41268: RPM — 09/22  at  10:48 AM
He's part of the Creation Instruction Association (aka, the CIA). I could make a joke about the lack of intelligence in the CIA, but I think there's something funny to say about the Culinary Institute of America . . . I just can't figure out what it is.



#41272: Alon Levy — 09/22  at  10:57 AM
One of Mr. Young's books is entitled Genesis: Yesterday’s Answers to Today’s Problems.

Nothing beats Robert Allen's, "between my faith and reason, I'll always choose my faith" admission, in my opinion.



#41273: — 09/22  at  10:58 AM
Thought this might be appreciated here:

<img src=http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TQAAAE8XPIj4kv75z3s85tCRrXzM5kN4p490BIKMy6ERyhIq5tdOTw1hmEWtu1fBg0KxmgWHLQg3!*OxCBKcqMvlzGywM0B4X*KkaTja2GtI74m4zRV*dg/OLDSKOOLGOD.jpg>



#41283: — 09/22  at  11:31 AM
"A local church is bringing in some bozo named Brian Young"

I continue to be bemused by the number of highly qualified people speaking in favour of actual science who can't resist attacks on individuals rather than concentrating solely on their ignorant and stupid ID/creationist arguments. It just gives "the other side" ammunition to claim that "...they attack us personally because they know that the logic is on our side."

"... bozo ... idiots ... cretins ... jerks ..." - all seen today. Plus the ongoing attacks on religion as though the "fundies" represent anything other than the idiot fringe. One example - "I don't trust in you, Jesus; I think you're a chancre on humanity." In my opinion, that's just an ignorant & insulting comment which adds nothing to the debate.

And if the response is, "Well, they do the same thing!" ... well, if you want to get down to their level and sound like 8-year olds in a schoolyard ...



's avatar #41285: — 09/22  at  11:37 AM
Douglas, it seems to me that it is the creationists who seem to reproduce by cloning, while the rest of us prefers sexual reproduction... Well, sex anyway.



#41287: Alon Levy — 09/22  at  11:44 AM
I continue to be bemused by the number of highly qualified people speaking in favour of actual science who can't resist attacks on individuals rather than concentrating solely on their ignorant and stupid ID/creationist arguments. It just gives "the other side" ammunition to claim that "...they attack us personally because they know that the logic is on our side."

I disagree for two reasons. One, Pharyngula brims with actual evidence for evolution and against ID arguments, and the talk.origins FAQ has even more such evidence. Two, although Pharyngula is a large, widely-read blog, it has very few unconvinced readers, too few for convincing them to outweigh saying the truth about creationists, namely that they're clowns.



#41291: — 09/22  at  12:11 PM
"...saying the truth about creationists, namely that they're clowns."

As I said, the value of "schoolyard arguments" escapes me. Can you not adequately criticize and denigrate someone's ignorant arguments without personal attacks?

Some may be "clowns" (whatever that is supposed to mean beyond being insulting), some may not be. In either case, the insult adds nothing.



#41294: — 09/22  at  12:35 PM

As I said, the value of "schoolyard arguments" escapes me. Can you not adequately criticize and denigrate someone's ignorant arguments without personal attacks?

So we should just point out that they have big red noses, excess makeup and very large shoes, and multitudes of them can fit in a very small car, but not state that they are clowns?

Have you considered starting your own blog and running it your own way?



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