Pharyngula

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005

I'd never vote for McCain, anyway

Great. Now McCain sells his soul to the anti-scientists.

On Tuesday, though, he sided with the president on two issues that have made headlines recently: teaching intelligent design in schools and Cindy Sheehan, the grieving mother who has come to personify the anti-war movement.

McCain told the Star that, like Bush, he believes "all points of view" should be available to students studying the origins of mankind.

The theory of intelligent design says life is too complex to have developed through evolution, and that a higher power must have had a hand in guiding it.

At a breakfast meeting Tuesday with the Tucson Metropolitan Chamber of Commerce, McCain said Sheehan is probably being used by organizations opposed to the U.S. mission in Iraq. But, he added, she is "a symptom, not a cause" of growing public discontent with the war.

So this is the guy who is supposed to be the moderate Republican? Screw that. I say we need to write off the whole party.

But before I get too partisan, I have to say that the Democratic party is doing its usual fine job of cowering back and avoiding any conflict with the Republicans, no matter how thuggish and imbecilic they may get. Here's a simple issue on which they could take a stand and differentiate themselves from their opponents—in which they could bravely set themselves apart as the party of the 19th century, rather than the 13th—and all you get is dumb silence. Maybe we need to write off the Democrats, too.

With one exception.

My man, Howard Dean.

Mr. Harris: Were you troubled by President Bush's endorsement that intelligent design should be taught alongside the evolution to schoolchildren?

Dr. Dean: The president has been anti-science for a long time. This is the most antiscientific regime that I've seen in America in my lifetime. I'm a trained physician, as you're aware. I'm insulted by that. It's going to harm America. What serious business is going to invest in America if a scientific education is influenced by politics? Science ought to be taught as science. If you want to teach religion, that's a separate debate. But science should be taught as science.

Schieffer: What is intelligent design? What do you think of that idea?

Dr. Dean: I think it's a religious idea. And actually, Einstein thought that there was some merit to it. Who am I to question Albert Einstein? But that is not--a religious idea is different than a scientific design. The idea that--and I don't think science and religion are incompatible. That's the thing that amazed me about this. You don't have to disbelieve evolution in order to be a religious person. So I don't understand why these folks continue to try to have this debate. But the truth of the matter is, intelligent design is a religious perception and a religious precept. That's fine. That should be taught wherever religion is taught, if that's the desire of those people who are religious.

Science is science. There's no factual evidence for intelligent design. There's an enormous amount of factual evidence for evolution. Those are the facts. If you don't like the facts, then you can fight against them. The Catholic Church fought against Galileo for a great many, many centuries. But it never pays to ignore the facts. Reason we're in trouble in Iraq right now, president didn't care what the facts were. Reason we have a $7 trillion, almost $8 trillion national debt, president didn't care what the facts were. The facts matter. The truth is, you can't run a business, a state, a country or a family if you don't care what the facts are.

He's not quite right about Einstein, there, but otherwise…I want him to be President in 2008. I guess that won't happen, but the other lame potential Democrat candidates are a tepid bunch in comparison. If McCain thinks the way to start campaigning for the Republican nomination is to come out for medieval theology, why can't the Democratic nominees begin by coming out for modern science?


New Patriot has another representative of principled opposition. It's not about creationism, but I'll settle for a Democrat who will criticize the war.


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Comments:
#37359: DarkSyde — 08/24  at  05:10 PM
Shit PZ I didn't see a single national dem take a swipe at the open jugular that Patty boy toy for Godliness Robertson literally opened up his coat, took off his tie, and laid his little head down on the chopping block for. I seriously do not understand wtf is wrong with the dems man. They're riding high in the polls now, people are flipping on Bush like they got caught with a ki of China White, and Robertson says this amazingly asinine thing just begging for a take down and the dems? They're talking about Lance Armstrong ..???
Someone really needs to explain to those folks that this is a gunfight and dull forks ain't gonna work. They should have been on that crap like a rug on a floor. The dems have a lot bigger problems than evo if they let opportunities like that pass them by, they need a lobotomy.



#37360: — 08/24  at  05:11 PM
McCain has never been a moderate Republican; he's even more anti-abortion than Bush. What he is is slightly quirky, that's all.



#37361: — 08/24  at  05:20 PM
I think Dean is right enough about Einstein: whatever pantheist god he might've believed in, it had little bearing on his work in science, except possibly as a driving motivation. And even if that's not true of Einstein, it may be true of Dean himself.

Strange how this scientific issue has taken on a partisan tilt. I wouldn't be surprised if there were plenty of Americans with little opinion about evolution, being ignorant of the subject, who look to their chosen political leaders to tell them what to believe.



#37362: — 08/24  at  05:28 PM
YEEEAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRGGHGHGHHHGHG!!!!!!!!

Howard can kick ass from time to time.



#37363: — 08/24  at  05:39 PM
Hell, if Dean ran on an independent ticket, I'd vote for him. The man had me sold in the '04 election, but the Dem convention decided to go with Kerry. Blah.



#37367: — 08/24  at  06:03 PM
When Einstein talked about God he was anthropomorphising the universe.



#37368: — 08/24  at  06:19 PM
Was Dean's Einstein comment just an unfortunate mis-application of the (in)famous "God does not play dice with the universe" quip re: quantum mechanics -- or is he picking up on something more substantial?

I know next-to-nothing-- wait, no, absolutely nothing -- about Einstein's religious views-- or even much about his biography, so I'm curious: was Dean just experiencing a moment of utter confusion, or should I give him more credit than that?

On the whole, I like Dean. I kind of like Reid too in that he's occasionally willing to put up a fight. It's one thing to be the party of Eternal Righteous Anger, but its much worse to be the party of Eternal Pathetic Spinelessness.

Three cheers for vertebrates.



#37372: — 08/24  at  06:42 PM
Wait, I'm confused. McCain still has a soul sell!? How did he manage to get to Washington then?



#37373: Adam Ierymenko — 08/24  at  06:59 PM
The Republicans are currently the slaves of the religious right for the simple reason that they cannot get elected without them. Nobody in the party dare say anything to upset the fundamentalists, and I'm sure McCain's strategists are telling him this.

A lot of "secular free market Republicans" are jumping ship for this and other reasons (e.g. disgust with war mongering, Bush's drunken sailor spending, etc.).

http://www.freedomdemocrats.org/



#37374: — 08/24  at  07:07 PM
Theophylact is exactly right. McCain is not a moderate republican. Lincoln Chaffee of RI is probably the last one.

McCain is really a more despicable character than most of his republican colleagues. The 2000 assault by the Bush mafios against McCain was beneath contempt, but McCain stuffed his testicles in his mouth and lined up against the tyrant.

McCain is a politioc who would perform fellatio upon anyone who would give him a vote.



#37375: — 08/24  at  07:24 PM
Dean was plain wrong about Einstein.

To a Baptist pastor asking Einstein whether he had considered the relationship of his immortal soul to its Creator:

I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.

To a correspondent citing an article about Einstein’s religious beliefs:

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

To a Chicago rabbi preparing a lecture on “The Religious Implications of the Theory of Relativity”:

The religious feeling engendered by experiencing the logical comprehensibility of profound interrelationships is of a somewhat different sort from the feeling that one usually calls religious. It is more a feeling of awe at the scheme that is manifested in the material universe. It does not lead us to take the step of fashioning a god-like being in our own image—a personage who makes demands of us and who takes an interest in us as individuals. There is in this neither a will nor a goal, nor a must, but only sheer being. For this reason, people of our type see in morality a purely human matter, albeit the most important in the human sphere.

Excerpts from “Albert Einstein: The Human Side,” a collection of letters chosen in part by his long-time secretary, Helen Dukas.



#37377: sort of buddhist — 08/24  at  08:05 PM
Blueshoe - thanks for the interesting Einstein quotes. I think that the religion of a lot (though not all) "religious scientists" (thinking back to the NY Times story) is pretty close to them. But even that degree of religiosity should not be taught in science classes as science, of course. Einstein was very clear that the closest he got to traditional religion was his feeling of "unbounded admiration for the structure of the world"; it was not a scientific inference from that structure, as an object of scientific research.



#37379: Bob Davis — 08/24  at  08:21 PM
It's shocking to read the Mr. Straight-Talk McCain is an idiot. Who would have thought? But then why is it that, even with mostly weak democrat responses (Dean company excluded) that this really is, unbelievably, a partisan issue? I mean, sure Frist is a medical doctor who diagnoses patients by video clip, but why do so many republicans feel the need to take the anti-science side in this? Aren't there republican scientists?

Well, I believe the republicans are now preparing to come out with a new teach-the-controversy position on geometry: There shouldn't really be three sides to a triangle anyway, just two sides - one for the man and one for the woman is enough. After all, God created Adam and Eve, not some freaking three sided triangle love nest with Adam, Eve and Genevieve or some other French idea.



#37381: — 08/24  at  08:27 PM
Dean's misinformation was probably based on Anthony Flew's belief that Intelligent Design is compatible with Einstein's philosphy.

Anthony Flew had world fame as an atheists philospher. He doesn't believe that ID is faith (even though it's adherents are mostly religous) but rather science.

Einstein believed in a natural law philosphy. God is the cosmos. All things work in harmony. No such thing as a personal God, but a believer in Spinoza's pantheistic philosophy.

If Dean is familiar with Anthony Flew, then he probably mistook Flew's comments as Einstein's endorsement.



#37382: John — 08/24  at  08:34 PM
Howard Dean is one of the only Democratic politicians who consistently says the things that need to be said. He's one of the few willing to call a spade a spade.



#37385: — 08/24  at  08:51 PM
I'm not surprised that McCain is willing to have ID taught in schools, I've never bought into the idea of McCain as a moderate. I am glad to see Dean speak up on the issue. Unfortunately, it probably means the Democrats will rush to endorse ID just to keep putting distance between them and Dean.



#37386: — 08/24  at  09:28 PM
I seem to remember something about Einstein believing in the idea of a soul because of the notion that energy cannot be destroyed. That always sounded wrong to me from the little that I do know about Einstein but I would be that is why many people think of him as supporting religious beliefs.



#37390: — 08/24  at  10:17 PM
Howard Dean is the President this country needs but doesn't deserve. And McCain is *such* a whore.



#37391: — 08/24  at  10:47 PM
God does play with dice. He uses loaded ones.



#37395: — 08/24  at  11:10 PM
McCain?

Wasn't he one of the Keating Five Four?



#37396: — 08/24  at  11:35 PM
There's also this one from Einstein:

"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings."



#37399: — 08/24  at  11:50 PM
Anthony Flew had world fame as an atheists philospher


Flew is pretty much an unknown, as far as I know, so it might be stretching it a little to talk about "world fame".

Regarding McCain, as others already have said, he's no moderate. However, I think that he would have been a much better president than Bush II. But then, so would the day-old coffee in my cup.



#37403: — 08/25  at  03:11 AM
McCain buys into the IDists' trap. Of course all Christians believe that everything was intelligently designed, but not all believe that the diversity of life can be explained without God's "special" intervention (i.e., another miracle). ID "theory", from the theist point of view, attempts to show that living things show the hallmarks of "Intelligent Design", but against a background of an intelligently designed universe. Add in the concept of an omnimax being and ID "theory" merely proposes that some things are more "designed" than others and I await the IDists attempts to define omnimax design without reference to the designer ;)



#37404: Alon Levy — 08/25  at  03:13 AM
I don't think you should trust Howard Dean. He's better than most Democratic politicians, but that reflects on the quality of most Democratic politicians rather than on Dean's. He has a tendency to project an image and say what is in accordance with it; witness his statements on Iraq in late 2002 and his statements on Iraq from about January 2003 onward, or his statements on religion in early 2003 and his statements on religion in late 2003. Dean has a lot of charisma and is better than most politicians, but he's not the president you should hope for.

Among the 2008 hopefuls whose names I've seen tossed, Feingold is by far the best, not only in terms of his being the most liberal Senator but also in terms of his winning reelection by margins substantially greater than these of any Democrat campaigning in Wisconin. Even though he is far too protectionist to my taste, his positions on other issues, most prominently foreign policy and civil liberties, mark him as the best possibility.



#37405: — 08/25  at  03:16 AM
Pirate mode gave me this (no kidding):

Dr. Yaaarrrrr! Dean



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