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Monday, May 23, 2005

ID News from the Netherlands

Idiocy may be infectious. It's not just the US that is infested with Intelligent Design creationism, although we seem to have the most advanced case of it. Sander Kupers sent me a link to this article in the Algemeen Dagblad (registration required, and it's all in Dutch, anyway…fortunately, Sander sent a translation):

(Note: new stuff added, and moved most of it below the fold, along with the pants-free cartoon)

Parliament: No debate about the theory of evolution

The Second Chamber of parliament (equivalent to the House of Commons or House of Representatives) doesn't want a debate about the theory of evolution, like the one Minister of Education Van der Hoeven (of the Christian Democratic Party CDA) wants. "The political parties aren't interested in a Minister that set us back to the 50's", says representative Balemans (of the Liberal Party VVD).

Van der Hoeven is charmed by the idea that there is a 'intended design' for life on Earth. This so-called Intelligent-Design philosophy is controversial in the scientific community, because it tacitly assumes the biblical account of creation.

The generally accepted theory of evolution of Darwin has no place for such supernatural explanations.

Last satuday, Van der Hoeven said in an interview with de Volkskrant that the theory of evolution is 'not complete'. She added that she doesn't believe in coincidence. The CDA-politica wants to start a dialogue between scientists and supporters of creationism and intelligent design.

The VVD (Liberals), D66 (Democrats), PvdA (Social Democrats), LPF (Populists) en also Van der Hoeven's own CDA (Christian Democrats) don't agree with her. "This will set us back five steps", fears representative Lambrechts (of the Democratic Party D66). "Six years ago we decided that schools must teach their students the evolution of evolution. We want to keep it this way."

According to representative De Vries (of the Christian Democratic Party CDA) such a debate is not necessary, "because there is no taboo." He says she can discuss it as much as she wants on own her own department.

Representative Kraneveldt (of the Populist Party LPF) thinks that the separation between religion and government is in danger if Van der Hoeven thinks it's her task to make the "ID-idea" heard in schools.

Van der Hoeven wanted to invite professor of Genetics R. Plasterk to the debate. He criticizes the ideas of the politician, because according to Plasterk, her ideas don't agree with the separation of religion and government. Plasterk thinks her statement that she doesn't believe in coincidence is "a bit strange".

Journalists in the Netherlands are going to have to work on their comprehension of the phenomenon: ID explicitly denies a strict attachment to biblical accounts, although it is an implicit assumption among many of the believers. That can lead to trouble later, when the proponents start complaining that their ideas have been misrepresented, and everything turns into a stultifying theological debate. At least it's a good sign that many of the politicians are quick to dissociate themselves from the nonsense; American politicians seem to avoid making a stand on the issue, unless they're coming out for it.

The New Humanist mentions another incident in the Netherlands, a school headmaster trying to push ID creationism on his science teachers.

A headmaster of a Protestant school has agreed to stay at home for a few days after causing a stir by his insistence his teachers adhere to the Christian theory of Creationism.

Peter Boon of Augustinus College in the northern city of Groningen said in an interview with newspaper "Dagblad van het Noorden" earlier this week he could not tolerate one of his teachers telling a class he was a supporter of the Theory of Evolution.

News agency ANP reported that many of the teachers in the school disagree with this and believe that the Theory of Evolution can go hand-in-hand with the Christian view on how life — and humans in particular — has developed.

During a staff meeting, some teachers indicated to Boon they felt offended and as if they were not been taken seriously.

As a result of the meeting, Boon he will create a "cooling off period" by staying away from the school until Tuesday. Monday is a holiday in the Netherlands.

Again, it's a promising sign that his peers just kindly asked the crazy headmaster to go home and have a nice lie-down, but not so good that such nuttiness is erupting at all. The Dutch treatments so far all seem very sensible, I wonder if we can get them accepted here?


Sander sends along some more translations from NRC Handelsblad (not available online).

Minister of education wants a debate about creation

Minister Maria van der Hoeven wants to start an academic discussion about evolution and the idea that there is a 'designer' responsible for life on earth.

The results of such a discussion might be added to school curricula.

In an interview in de Volkskrant of last Saturday minister Van der Hoeven confirmed this idea, which she wrote about on her own weblog last March.

According to the minister "you have to admit that the theory of evolution is incomplete," and that "new things" are discovered all the time. On her weblog she referred to the ideas of the American movement of Intelligent Design, a movement from the 90's that suspects a creator is responsible for life on earth.

This is serious! It's on a weblog!

The minister wants to organize a discussion next fall with scientists and supporters of creationism and intelligent design. According to Van der Hoeven this discussion can be used to make connections between science and religion. The minister thinks it's "too bad" that scientists want to keep science and religion separated. Her remarks don't violate the separation between religion and government, says the minister.

The Second Chamber of Parliament rejects the minister's plan. According to coalition partners VVD and CDA the government should not play any role in a debate about science and religion. Representative J. de Vries (CDA): "That debate has to happen within the scientific community itself." E. Balemans thinks this idea is linked with an unwanted "conversative-religious movement in the United States". "Politics should stay far away from science," says M. Hamer (PvdA). U. Lambrechts (D66) says the remarks of the minister "set us back five steps", "Six years ago we decided that schools must teach their students the evolution of evolution. The minister's remarks at least seem to suggest that ID is a theory that as equally supported as the theory of evolution."

There's also a link to a curious cartoon. The captions are translated as "Fokke and Sukke have never noticed any intelligent design," and the characters say: "We know the ministry of education as a supporter of the creation..." and "of chaos". Hmmm. OK. I can't say that it's exactly hilarious, but it is interesting that Dutch cartoon characters can get away with not wearing any pants in their newspapers.

fokke & sukke

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Comments:
#25716: coturnix — 05/23  at  01:07 PM
I guess they are everywhere! I doubt they have much room to grow in Netherlands, though. It does not in Serbia, remember?



#25725: — 05/23  at  01:38 PM
If anything is unclear about the translation, don't hesitate to ask. English is not my first language and I'm afraid I am no Nabokov...

There's also a translation of the original interview in de Volkskrant at the talk.origins newsgroup: http://tinyurl.com/d5utr .



#25748: — 05/23  at  03:20 PM
"The political parties aren't interested in a Minister that set us back to the 50's", says representative Balemans (of the Liberal Party VVD)


Does Balemans know that Minister van der Hoeven's plan will take the Netherlands back to the 1850s?

Representative Lambrechts: "Six years ago we decided that schools must teach their students the evolution of evolution. We want to keep it this way."


Possibly the last three words of Lambrechts's first sentence are a translation error, or perhaps the Dutch curriculum includes a meta-evolutionary perspective still unknown beyond the polders.

Irregardless, it's apparent that something major happened in Dutch biology instruction in 1999. Can anyone fill in a little background as to that almost-millennial turning point, and whatever preceded it? Maybe poor headmaster Peter Boon is innocently asserting what he was taught (albeit in a now-obsolete century) before the famous van Skopjes trial?



#25755: — 05/23  at  03:29 PM
...it is interesting that Dutch cartoon characters can get away with not wearing any pants in their newspapers.


Even their names wouldn't be permitted in any American daily newspaper....



#25756: — 05/23  at  03:31 PM
Possibly the last three words of Lambrechts's first sentence are a translation error, or perhaps the Dutch curriculum includes a meta-evolutionary perspective still unknown beyond the polders.

Sorry, my mistake, the original article says "theory of evolution" instead of "evolution of evolution". If PZ Myers would be so nice to fix the mistake...

The history of creationism and evolution is also part of the curriculum though, but not for biology. It's part of a subject known General Natural Sciences. That subject is about the scientific method, the history of science and the practical uses of science.

I'm not sure what happened in 1999, but I'll contact some teachers of high-school biology I know.



#25758: Paul — 05/23  at  03:38 PM
An online forum I frequent (OK, it's the one at Randi.org) has many members from the UK. Apparently ID is a hot topic over there right now as well.



#25782: — 05/23  at  06:27 PM
I'm guessing the cartoon is making a play on words along these lines "We all know the ministry knows nothing about INTELLIGENT DESIGN; all they know is the CREATION ... of CHAOS".



#25783: — 05/23  at  06:27 PM
Maybe the supporter of chaos is a reference to the secterian warfare that ravaged the European continent following the Protestant reformation?



#25785: — 05/23  at  06:47 PM
I have confidence that the Dutch will arrive at a sensible conclusion. They have a reputation as a very practical people. As the old joke goes: When an American comes home and finds his wife in bed with another man, he gets out his gun. When a Dutchman comes home and finds his wife in bed with another man, he gets out his rollerdex, because he's obviously missed an appointment.



#25788: — 05/23  at  08:21 PM
In 1999 a new science curriculum was developed for the mainstream sedondary schools. It came with new textbooks that give a minimal treatment of evolution theory in diverse contexts. Parochial and protestant schools, by the way, are public schools in the Netherlands.



#25800: — 05/23  at  11:15 PM
coturnix:
I doubt they have much room to grow in Netherlands, though.
Um... are you referring to their genitalia?

smile

Because, from what I've heard, Evolutionists are usually known to be pretty evolved in that department, if you know what I mean...

...Maybe the IDiots are projecting?

Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

-Jerry Garcia



#25801: — 05/24  at  12:03 AM
I'm guessing the cartoon is making a play on words along these lines "We all know the ministry knows nothing about INTELLIGENT DESIGN; all they know is the CREATION ... of CHAOS".


That's it, Steve.

(My Dutch is rusty but serviceable...)



#25805: Alon Levy — 05/24  at  01:16 AM
Well, I don't read Dutch, but I do know that "van" means "of."

Eudoxis: in France Catholic schools receieve government funds, and that's a country where it's not considered self-evidently stupid to force Jewish and Muslim kids to eat pork at school.



#25811: — 05/24  at  01:53 AM
Tom Stinnett send me some questions about the cartoon and because more people seem to have trouble understanding the cartoon, I'll post those answer here as well:

1) Who are "Fokke and Sukke"? Are they recurring characters in the cartoon? Are they meant to be caricatures of certain real people who exist, or are they representative of "types" that can be found in the general populace? Do their names mean what I think they mean?

Fokke and Sukke are characters in a long-running cartoon in the newspaper NRC Handelsblad (http://www.nrc.nl/).

What I'm going to write now is in part based on http://www.foksuk.nl/informatie.phtml. Fokke and Sukke are two birds, a duck and a chick. I don't think they're based on any real persons, although they may resemble the authors of the cartoon when they were students.

The first cartoon was also written for a magazine for students, called Propia Cures. The name "Sukke" was thought up first, and is actually based on the rare Dutch word "sukken", which means "irritating someone very much on purpose". They needed a second name for the other character. They don't explain their motivation for choosing "Fokke", but I think it has to do with the way the names sound in English. I think most of the Dutch readers understand this, so yes, you could say the names mean what you think they mean.

2) What is the significance of the characters wearing no pants? The cane? The hats?

I don't know why they don't wear any pants. They never wear any pants in any of their cartoons, but they do always wear their hats. The one with the hat with the "F" is Fokke.

The cane is supposed to make them represent a teacher. About 50 years ago, teachers in the Netherlands still had canes to point to equations and such on the blackboard.

3) Is the cartoon intended to be a slam at the politician who is advocating creationism, or not? Does the dialog have any special meaning or reference that needs to be explained to a non-Dutch person?

The cartoon is intended to be a joke about the Dutch ministry of education. There have been quite a few large changes in the Dutch education systems the last decade, and some of those were pretty disastrous.

Teachers were supposed to answer the questions the students have while they were learning independently, instead of just talking to the students and explaining everything to the entire class at the same time. The idea was quite good in theory. Well-motivated students would be able to work at their own pace and teachers would be able to spend more time on students that required more help. However, in practice the classes tended to become very chaotic.

It is not really a joke about intelligent design, but about the Dutch ministry of education and their policies.



#25817: — 05/24  at  03:04 AM
The name "Sukke" was thought up first, and is actually based on the rare Dutch word "sukken", which means "irritating someone very much on purpose".


Any language freaks out there? "Sukken" is almost certainly cognate with "sekieren", a Viennese dialect word with exactly the same meaning.



#25820: Alon Levy — 05/24  at  03:29 AM
I don't think this is likely, zilch. In German, the process of umlaut would have probably made the word begin with sü. Furthermore, as Viennese is a High German dialect, the cognate of medial or final k in English or Dutch would be ch, as in seek-süchen, make-machen.



#25824: — 05/24  at  05:24 AM
You may be right to be skeptical about the cognates, Alon. I'll have to consult my Altphilolog experts here. But as far as the umlaut goes- in Wienerisch, it is lost as a grammatical marker (High German "fährt" becomes "fahrt", "süchtig" becomes "siachtig", etc.) and is only present as a nongrammatical alteration of certain vowel sounds, especially in combination with medial or final "l", for instance "geld" becomes "göd". It's true, there's a big difference between the "u" of "sukken" and the "e" of "sekieren", but stranger things have happened- witness "saelic" (MHG "blessed") becoming ME "silly". Or "schneibe" and "snow".

And English "k" is often cognate with "g" (indistinguishable from "k" in Wienerisch) or "ck" in German: suck, saug; pluck, pflück; luck, glück; etc.

Of course, you may still be correct.



#25829: Alon Levy — 05/24  at  06:36 AM
All good points... do you know the standard German cognate of sukken?

Sander, if you have a Dutch dictionary with etymologies, could you look up the word and tell us what cognates it has in other Germanic languages, if any?



#25836: — 05/24  at  07:43 AM
No, I only know slang "sukken", which means (wait for it!) "to suck" in the sense of "Man, this game sucks!" But that's very new and certainly direct from English.

I have an etymological dictionary of German at home- I'll check it out too.



#25847: — 05/24  at  09:23 AM
IIRC, the Dutch have their own homegrown creationists, who I assume are derived from the Dutch Reformed Church. I have a beautiful book called "Journey to the Ice Age" by Rien Poortvliet, the same guy who did the gnome books back in the late 1970s. It's basically a series of paintings of Dutch wildlife from the present day back to the last ice age, with commentary from the artist. In the introduction, he mentions that a friend who is a fisherman sometimes finds mammoth teeth in his nets, but he says that his friend wouldn't agree with the account of the ice age in the book because it contradicts the bible.



Trackback: Netherlands: Controversy Over Evolution Tracked on: Agnosticism/Atheism (207.241.148.39) at 2005 05 24 11:48:50
Evolution and creationism have been making headlines in the Netherlands. In Amsterdam, the headmaster of a religious school had to "cool off" at home for a few days after saying that all teachers had to adhere to creationism. In the...



#25951: — 05/25  at  01:33 AM
Well, nothing definite about "sukken" from my end. My linguist friend thinks "sekieren" is more likely to be related to Italian dialect "seccare" (meaning approx. "to tease") from Latin "siccare", "to dry" (as in "dessicate"). There are lots of Italian words in Wienerisch, so she may be on to something.

Apologies for the linguistic thread drift.



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