Pharyngula

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Tuesday, June 14, 2005

If you doubt this is possible, how is it there are PYGMIES + DWARFS??

Can you stomach a little more Jim Pinkoski? He's ranting in the comments most amusingly.

You guys LIE about Java man, you LIE about Lucy, you LIE about the horse ancestary chart, you LIE about fetuses mimicking evolution stages, you LIE about upright trees sticking through different geology layers, you LIE when you ignore the arguments about the earth's magnetic field, you LIE when you respond to the rotation of the moon orbiting the earth -- SO WHY SHOULD I EVER CONCLUDE THAT ANY OF YOU ARE ACTUALLY "RIGHT" ABOUT ANYTHING? All I see is repeated pathological LYING done by evolutionists in the evolution vs. poor old Kent Hovind's Creationism!

Those are his words, but I added the links myself—each one addresses these old creationist canards. Evolutionists are not lying; rather, the creationists are not comprehending.

His comic book flings out absurd claims at a frenetic pace, in exactly the same way. He just babbles, echoing tired old creationist stories, each of which does nothing but reflect the ignorance of these people. Here is a partial list of some of the crap he flings at the wall in the space of 15 pages. None of it sticks; I've linked to a refutation for each from the Talk.Origins archive.

Pinkoski isn't exactly lying. He's merely pretending to a competence that he does not have, in matters that he doesn't understand at all. He's just not very bright.

When he isn't making up bogus arguments against evolution, he's inventing silly fantasies about his creation model. Pinkoski is a big fan of the pseudoscientific "vapor canopy" idea of Walt Brown, even though it doesn't make sense, wouldn't work, and is completely unsupported by the evidence.

He's inconsistent and more than a little hypocritical. Note that above he attacks the fossil record in multiple ways, but here's an interesting reversal:

FACT: The FOSSIL RECORD shows that nearly everything grew LARGER before the flood—"GIANTISM" flourished—(they've found 18 inch cockroaches, 3 ft. dragonflies, 2 ft. grasshoppers, 8 ft. beavers, 15 ft. turtles, 80 ft. sharks, etc., etc.!) ACCORDINGLY, THIS CONDITION COULD ALSO APPLY TO MANKIND!

This is one of the hallmarks of creationism, cherry-picking the data. He only accepts the scattered bits of the fossil record that fit his predetermined view. At the same time, while rejecting the reasonable, consistent, and tested interpretations of evolutionary theory, he feels free to hare off and make up any ol' bit of nonsense he wants. For example…

giants in the earth

I gotta say, though, that that little "note" is one of my favorite bits of the book, and it tells us so much about Pinkoski's illogic. In case you can't read it, it's his supporting evidence for his claim that Adam was 15 feet tall:

NOTE: If you doubt this is possible, how is it there are PYGMIES + DWARFS??

Man, the existence of pygmies and dwarfs has nothing to do with whether men were 15 feet tall 6000 years ago, and I had to laugh out loud. It's an incredibly useful phrase that's going to come in handy.

Ever wonder how the hell a moron like George W. Bush got elected? "If you doubt this is possible, how is it there are PYGMIES + DWARFS??"

How can people be so gullible to believe the nonsense peddled by the Discovery Institute? "If you doubt this is possible, how is it there are PYGMIES + DWARFS??"

"Kids, go clean your rooms." "Awww, do I have to?" "If you doubt this is possible, how is it there are PYGMIES + DWARFS??"

There are more ridiculous creationist fantasies in the book, including his devil-driven dinosaur assault on Noah's Ark and some malarkey about how T. rex could breathe fire, but it's the same old evidence-free babble. Or rather, the evidence is all along the lines of, "If you doubt this is possible, how is it there are PYGMIES + DWARFS??"


Trackback url: http://pharyngula.org/index/trackback/2423/rDlDDzdb/

Comments:
#28410: — 06/14  at  06:54 PM
Man, the existence of pygmies and dwarfs has nothing to do with whether men were 15 feet tall 6000 years ago...
Unless, of course, he means to imply that pygmies and dwarfs come from the future - where, in about 5,000 more years, everyone will be only about 3 feet tall.

Of course, if this is true, I think that I might start praying at all like Hell for a sooner-than-later date of Rapture...

...I'm short enough as it is, damnit!

Regardless, I gotta thank you, Dr. Myers. This post really made my day (allowed me a clinging shot at sanity), especially having nearly lost all hope after reading Pinkoski's latest comment in the above-mentioned thread.

Next round's on me.

Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

-Jerry Garcia



#28411: Orac — 06/14  at  06:56 PM
I just can't figure out why Jim would accuse "evolutionists" in general of "lying." One thing I learned on Usenet is never to call anyone a liar unless you can convincingly prove that (1) what he is saying is untrue and (2) that he knows that it is untrue but says it anyway. Notice that PZ didn't accuse Jim of lying, just of spouting off about stuff he clealry doesn't know or understand.

In any case, Jim's rant calling so many people "liars" without evidence seems mighty un-Christian to me.

--
Orac “A statement of fact cannot be insolent.”
http://oracknows.blogspot.com



#28414: — 06/14  at  07:04 PM
I love creationists. They're a hoot.



#28419: — 06/14  at  07:13 PM
Dear Sir,

Having consulted with my colleagues and based on the information gathered from the Nigerian Chambers Of Commerce And Industry, I have the privilege to request your assistance to transfer the sum of $47,500,000.00 (forty seven million, five hundred thousand United States dollars) into your accounts. If you doubt this is possible, how is it there are PYGMIES + DWARFS??



's avatar #28420: Ken Cope — 06/14  at  07:13 PM
I didn't see how it was possible to resist the urge to shout quoted creationist idiocy after the fashion of Mr. Gumby, until I asked myself, HOW... IS... IT... THERE... ARE... uhh... uhh... PYGMIES + DWARFS??



#28422: — 06/14  at  07:19 PM
The real reason that Tyrannosaur didn't breathe fire, of course, is that God only allows a certain amount of badass in the world at any one time, and fire-breathing would most certainly have caused an overload.

Rrawr!



#28423: No More Mr. Nice Guy! — 06/14  at  07:19 PM
When you look at the range of intellectual capacity in mankind, how is it that there are mental PYGMIES + DWARVES who believe in cretinism (oops, I mean creationism)?



#28425: DarkSyde — 06/14  at  07:32 PM
JIm isn't uncomprehending, he's marketing his product. We often make the mistake of assuming what matters to folks is accuracy and integrity; i.e. that they're scientists or interested in science. But when you're in the PR and Advertising game all that matters is exposure and name recognition. If Jim had asked PZ to make an annoucement on Pharyngula abut his products knowing that's it's now the one of the highest traffic science sites in the US being watched by both friend and foe (Potential customers in both camps BTW), Dr Myers would have laughed at him.

Al he has to do is ratchet up the pretend insanity and outrage each time and he'll milk it for all it's worth. Personally I think it's woth giving him some exposure just to see how far he'll go in shedding all dignity. It's like making a rummy dance for nickels in a bar.



#28426: — 06/14  at  07:36 PM
So relieved. Now I understand why I never got taller than 5 feet--I'm either a pygmy or a dwarf. Or am I missing something here?



#28428: — 06/14  at  07:51 PM
Or am I missing something here?

Yes. Three vertebrae. The government harvests them occasionally; they're ground up to feed Congressmen.



#28433: Amanda — 06/14  at  08:20 PM
Tired creationists canards on show too at a "debate" <a href="http://webdiary.smh.com.au/archives/phil_uebergang/001149.html>hosted by the Sydney Morning Herald</a> between Answers in Genesis and the Aust Skeptics. Opening statements up, the rest to follow in the coming days. Ho hum but someones gotta do it.



#28434: Amanda — 06/14  at  08:21 PM
Eh. Code. Apologies. http://webdiary.smh.com.au/archives/phil_uebergang/001149.html



#28435: Laura — 06/14  at  08:30 PM
I personally like how modern man is in a suit and modern woman is in a skirt. We couldn't be nake or anything.



's avatar #28437: Les — 06/14  at  08:36 PM
Priceless. It's amazing to see how many long-debunked creationist claims can be compressed into a comic strip at one time without causing people's heads to explode.

If it weren't for the fact that some people actually people actually believe that crap it would be hilarious.

"Religion consists in a set of things which the average man thinks he believes, and wishes he was certain." - Mark Twain, Notebook, 1879.
Stupid Evil Bastard



#28438: — 06/14  at  08:42 PM
This Jim P guy is so far over the top it is hard to believe he isnt putting on an act. Ive been reading his spiels for days and find it really hard to believe that he is even half serious.

If not, I hope he is under close supervision.



#28439: — 06/14  at  08:43 PM
I know they exist... I still can't believe it. Mr. Pinkoski refuses to observe, learn and understand. His tone tells it all. He has it all figured out and he is done thinking about it.

Imagine what that is like for a moment... knowing that you will never gain insight of the world around you. You will never discover, or wonder. You will never doubt or question your position. You are satisfied and refuse to seek more data.
He is the hamster on the treadmill; the angry hamster on the treadmill.
How depressing. I can't help but feel sorry for the man.



#28440: — 06/14  at  08:46 PM
Laura
I personally like how modern man is in a suit and modern woman is in a skirt. We couldn't be nake or anything.


A proper (god-fearing) ankle lenght skirt at that.



#28441: — 06/14  at  08:54 PM
I think DarkSyde has it right. JP is hamming it up for his customers. Maybe even some of us will buy a copy or two for the giggles. Not me, but maybe you.

Of course this is how I interpret the rantings of televangilists and Republicans, too; they are all hucksters who understand the weaknesses of their customer base.



#28442: — 06/14  at  08:54 PM
JIm isn't uncomprehending, he's marketing his product.

Of course he is. Why anybody would assume otherwise is beyond me. (I think he's one of Ron Wyatt's sidekicks.)



#28443: — 06/14  at  08:56 PM
from the Kansas Kreationist Kangaroo Kourt transcript:
Irigonegaray asked [Warren Nord], "Is it important to have religion taught in economics class?"
Nord: "Yes."
Irigonegaray: "What about math class?"
Nord: "I can make a case for that."

PYGMIES + DWARFS = ADAMS/2

Do I get a gold star now, Prof. Nord?



#28444: — 06/14  at  08:56 PM
"you LIE about Lucy"
Okay, Pinkoski, I admit it -- I knew all along that she was going to pull the football away just as Charlie Brown was trying to kick it!



#28445: Wayne — 06/14  at  08:57 PM
Adam is hot.



#28457: — 06/14  at  10:13 PM
I realize I'm thinking WAY too much about this whole "pygmies and dwar(ves)" thing, but:

The Mbuti people are considered to be the only true Pygmies since they are under 150 centimeters. That's 4'11" tall. To be a dwarf under current medical standards, you need to be 4'9".

Since researchers are able to determine the average height nation-by-nation, it's pretty well-established that different populations differ in height, even in the same general geographic area. For instance, Dutch men average about 6'0" in height, but German men are about 5'9". So not only are the Mbuti not unique, their being shorter than the surrounding population isn't even that unusual, particularly since they don't mix with the other peoples. That means they've been (yes!) naturally selected to be shorter.

Dwarfism is a whole different issue -- it's a medical condition, usually a result of genetics.

So my question is -- why are people taller today than they were 200 years ago if Adam started at 15 feet tall over 6,000 years ago? Shouldn't people be shorter today than they were 200 years ago if we're progressively shrinking since Adam's day?



#28460: tim gueguen — 06/14  at  10:18 PM
If Noah, and presumably other members of his family, was 12 feet tall that adds yet another problem to the story of the Ark, namely that 12 foot tall people would require more calories than smaller people simply to move the additional mass around. Hence the Ark would need to be stuffed with even more supplies than an Ark crewed by 6 foot tall humans.



#28461: UrsulaV — 06/14  at  10:18 PM
I am ashamed to confess that I spent nearly a minute trying to figure out how the existence of PYGMIES + DWARFS fit in to the whole "Adam was a giant" thing. ("So, um...Adam was a giant. And pygmies...prove this...somehow...or other...and...err... huh?") Man, there's not even an internal logic to that one.

I could at least respect a coherent, seamless mythology as a nifty exercise in worldbuilding, but I'm not buying any fantasy comic that doesn't at least make a stab at internal consistency, damnit.



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