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Tuesday, January 03, 2006

In praise of godless science

I'm flattered that John Rennie puts me in the same paragraph with Richard Dawkins (and Andrew Brown has me going toe-to-toe with a dead mystery writer—I'm battling the godly everywhere), but while I agree in part with what he's saying, there's also a theme that I have often found troubling and self-destructive.

Just to further clarify, I'm absolutely not arguing for a strategic moratorium on anti-religious arguments. Some critics have suggested that outspokenly atheistic evolution advocates such as Richard Dawkins and PZ Myers should censor themselves for the greater good. I disagree: the scientific community encompasses many points of view and there is no reason to hide that fact. At the same time, let's not play into the hands of the creationists by unintentionally sending the message that science is automatically derisive of religion.

It is entirely correct that the scientific community is full of Christians and Muslims and Buddhists and agnostics and atheists, and I think that's reasonable and fair—we're even pleased to point out to the creationists that many of our leading lights have been and are religious (Dobzhansky, Ayala, Miller, Collins: it isn't at all difficult to find people who can do both good science and follow a religion in their private life). It is self-evident that scientists are not necessarily derisive of religion, and also that science as an abstract concept can't be derisive at all. However, I do think that the processes of science are antithetical to the processes of religion—personal revelation and dogma are not accepted forms of evidence in the sciences—and that people can encompass both clashing ideas is nothing but a testimony to the flexibility of the human mind, which has no problem partitioning and embracing many contradictions. There are also many scientists who are capable of suspending disbelief and reading fantasy novels with pleasure; that doesn't mean that magic is a valid way of manipulating the world.

I really think we (not me, of course, but the general "we" of all of us ladies and gentlemen fighting creationism) go too far in trying to present science as compatible and even friendly to religion. It's not. The whole philosophy of critical thinking and demanding reproducible evidence arms its proponents with a wicked sharp knife that is all too easily applied to religious beliefs, which rely entirely on credulity. While individuals may be happy to sheathe that knife during the church service, filling the pews with ranks of critical individuals while preaching absurdities is a risky business. Why do you think I can't go to church? It's because I'm sitting there with a demanding and hair-trigger critical faculty, thinking "baloney!" at almost every platitude from the preacher, struggling against the urge to stand up and shout "Show me the evidence!" at the pulpit. Even if I keep that urge in control, it's not a comfortable time. The religious know that a well-educated populace with a good background in science would mean church attendance would fade away, especially for the more stridently evangelical/fundamentalist (AKA "insane") sects.

We are being disingenuous when we claim science is compatible with religion. It's compatible with a kind of thoughtful religion that consciously sets itself aside as dealing solely with a metaphysical domain, not the world; it encourages the apostasy of deism and agnosticism, and can easily lead people into the path of atheism. It's far more compatible with freethought than the kinds of religions our opponents, the creationists, hold. It does not mollify that family of Southern Baptists to explain that a college education is likely to allow their kids to emerge still Christian, but critical of fundamentalism, and more impressed with the testimony of rocks than the list of begats in Genesis.

So what we get is a common strain of chronic avoidance of the issue among the pro-evolution crowd. We put up a façade that ignores two important things: 1) the majority of scientists are deists, agnostics, and atheists, who want to promote greater science literacy and rational thinking (but not, explicitly, freethought—that's only a common aftereffect) and 2) the creationists aren't stupid about social issues, and can see right through it—and they are well aware that compromise erodes religion, not vice versa. It's analogous to the way the Intelligent Design creationists pretend to be scientists with no religious motivations*, which is similarly false and transparent.

I do not think that we should marginalize the opinions of scientists who are also religious—far from it, I think it is a good idea to have them there to show that you can do good science while holding some unscientific ideas. However, I also think we ought to do a better job of similarly promoting atheist scientists, not instead of but as a complement to those more socially acceptable theists. Science should be seen as a muscular endeavor, and hiding our fiercest and most fearless advocates behind the scenes is a waste of potential and gives the impression that we're timid and ashamed of many of our best and brightest.

Case in point: Richard Dawkins. How often have you heard the phrase, "I love Dawkins' books, but…" followed by excuses that he's too arrogant, he's too hard on the religious, he's a militant atheist? Here in the US at least, you'll often see Ken Miller the Catholic biologist trotted out as the man to emulate, the unintimidating figure of a scientist with something in common with the ordinary guy on the street (unfairly, too, I think—he ought to be praised as a biologist, a lucid writer, a great speaker, not because of his one failing: he's religious), but you'll never see Dawkins brought up in the same way. He's "far too fierce", as if that were a shortcoming.

It's a strength. Creationists hate the guy because he doesn't just stand against one ludicrous symptom of their belief system, he goes straight to the root with scathing rhetoric against the whole monumental pile of rickety confabulations. Look at how they react to him:

The Christian Courier

Professor Dawkins is not just an atheist. He is a swaggering atheist. He hates religion with a passion and never misses an opportunity to level a blast at those who profess devotion to the Supreme Being.

Albert Mohler

As a militant atheist, Dawkins is living out the inevitable consequences of the Darwinian worldview. The evolutionary perspective is left with the universe as nothing more than a silent box empty of all meaning, intention, and design. Everything within the box must be explained in terms of purely naturalistic materials and processes. The cosmos and everything within it is nothing more than a marvelous--if often malevolent--accident of nature.

Robert Fulford

He won't mute his views of religion to avoid hurting the feelings of believers, as some scientists do. He lost any respect he had for that practice in the aftermath of Sept. 11, 2001, "when prelates and pastors did their tremulous Martin Luther King impersonation and urged people of mutually incompatible faiths to hold hands, united in homage to the very force that caused the problem in the first place."

Gregg Easterbrook

Don't take this personally, but if you are an American adult there is a one in two chance that Richard Dawkins, a renowned professor of science at Oxford, thinks you are "ignorant, stupid or insane," unless you are "wicked." These are the adjectives Dawkins chooses to describe the roughly 100 million Americans adults who, if public opinion polls are right, believe Homo sapiens was created directly by God, rather than gradually by evolution. Ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked. Not much to choose from there!

Michael Novak

…Dawkins in his apoplexy can find no place for believing Jews and Christians except delusion. He thinks of atheism as a place of honor and of religion as a disease; teaching of the latter, a crime; teaching of the former, a way of light, knowledge, and truth.

Christian Courier

Richard Dawkins is a professor of zoology at Oxford University. He describes himself as "a fairly militant atheist, with a fair degree of active hostility toward religion". According to Dawkins, "religion is very largely an enemy of truth". He characterizes the idea that man was created by God as "blasphemy," and insists that "we [atheists] have to fight against" this ideology.

The fact is – it is he, along with those of his anti-intellectual ilk, who are the real enemies of truth, and the adversaries of common sense.

Now, really, how can you but admire someone who gets such press from such execrable sources?

When creationists carp at the uncompromising atheism of people like Dawkins, let's not pander to them and thereby validate their complaints by offering up some more palatable Christian proxy, but instead stand up for them. Yes, he's a forthright atheist…and so was John Maynard Smith and Ernst Mayr and Francis Crick and many, many others. We like them. Have you got a problem with that?

Some people already have the right idea. Jerry Coyne reviewed A Devil's Chaplain : Reflections on Hope, Lies, Science, and Love (amzn/b&n/abe/pwll), and thought that ferocious atheism was admirable.

"Modern theists," writes Dawkins, "might acknowledge that, when it comes to Baal and the Golden Calf, Thor and Wotan, Poseidon and Apollo, Mithras and Ammon Ra, they are actually atheists. We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." But Dawkins goes beyond a mere defence of atheism. He also subscribes to the American writer H. L. Mencken's dictum that: "We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart." Why, asks Dawkins, should the public give religious arguments any more credibility than arguments for other brands of nonscientific 'truth'? Curiously, Dawkins does not explore why religious ideas get undue respect. Surely one reason is that arguing about religion (especially when one participant is an atheist) is unproductive, likely to produce only mutual dislike. No rapprochement is possible between those whose beliefs derive from evidence and those whose beliefs either do not depend on evidence or are unshaken by contrary evidence. This is why science and religion are incompatible ways of viewing the world.

Dawkins' critique of religion rests on three points. First, because different faiths make very different claims about the world, they cannot all be true; and none of the claims (such as the bodily assumption of Mary into heaven) can be scientifically verified. Second, the choice among faiths is not based on rational consideration: the vast majority of people simply practice the religion of their parents. This is especially galling to Dawkins, who sees the easy indoctrination of children as a product of natural selection favouring the rapid spread of information between generations. Finally, Dawkins considers religions to be vehicles of evil because they facilitate the labelling of people as either 'us' or 'them', fostering xenophobia and its attendant horrors — Northern Ireland and the Middle East come to mind.

These views are summarized in a wonderfully passionate essay, "Time To Stand Up", written shortly after 11 September, 2001. One excerpt: "To label people as death-deserving enemies because of disagreements about real-world politics is bad enough. To do the same for disagreements about a delusional world inhabited by archangels, demons, and imaginary friends is ludicrously tragic."

Lest you think it's just because he's a fellow evolutionary biologist (we're almost all godless heathens, you know), Richard Holloway, former Bishop of Edinburgh reviewed the same book, and had this to say.

So the real object of Dawkins's grand Darwinian wrath is not the small person, who comforts herself against the cold winds of reality with the threadbare blanket of religion and the placebos of phony medicine, it is the powerful institutions that exploit her understandable human frailty and give her the stones of illusion instead of the bread of truth.

We have to define Dawkins, therefore, as a moral crusader, a prophet of science as a better way of understanding ourselves than the delusions of religion, whether orthodox or new age. And it is a tragic vision he offers us. The goal of life is life itself. There is no final purpose, no end other than entropy and the end of all endings. But there is deep refreshment to be had "from standing up full-face into the keen wind of understanding". As a recovering Christian, I want to say amen to that…

That's a lovely way to put it, and I agree entirely with it. Unfortunately, people are petty about some things, and when they see someone else throw away their blankie and stride out to face reality, they take it as a personal rebuke, and every suggestion to others that they come out into the light is regarded as an insult to their hidey-hole, their much beloved little binkie. That's too bad, but I don't think the right answer is to reassure everyone that it's OK to huddle away, or that their threadbare blanket is a splendid and precious thing. We shouldn't snatch it away, but sorry, everyone, let's be honest: it's a crutch, a waste of time, a shroud that prevents you from seeing a real and terrible beauty. The real heroes of science are the ones who shed old superstitions and confront a harsh and callous universe without comforting, misleading fables.

Time to stand up.


*I have to make an incredibly charitable concession. I think one of the reasons the creationists push the ID strategy is that they recognize that religious ideas about our origins are currently mired in a ghetto of ignorance—that most creationists believe because they are slaves to dogma. ID is an attempt to provide an intellectually respectable framework within which god-belief can flourish without doing the equivalent of a lobotomy on its proponents, and at least that goal is admirable. It fails because they face the intractable problem of inventing evidence out of a vacuum, and because its leaders aren't very bright. They are cruising along on the brute-force propellant of ideology rather than science, against the thrust of the evidence.


Coyne JA (2003) Gould and God. Nature 422:813-814.


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Comments:
#56088: — 01/03  at  04:53 PM
When is the last time you read of someone on the other side being criticised, in the mainstream media, for using science to tout their religious philosophical view? Certainly many have done so (e.g. Townes, Polkinghorne) and their arguments hold up not nearly so well as Dawkins'. You won't see them taken down a peg for it though, except at places like Pharyngula.



#56090: Gerard Harbison — 01/03  at  04:57 PM
Incidentally, has anyone EVER heard a Fundamentalist Christian suggest that Christians temper their habitual atheist bashing? Given the massive prejudice against atheists in America, why are we the ones who should be nice and not offend?

I'm still waiting for an apology from George H.W. Bush for his incredibly bigoted piece of atheist bashing in 1988.



#56091: — 01/03  at  05:22 PM
I'm still waiting for an apology from George H.W. Bush for his incredibly bigoted piece of atheist bashing in 1988.

I hope there's some serious longevity in your family.



#56092: — 01/03  at  05:26 PM
Dr. Myers, excellent piece. I agree with your sense of it.

The only reason the "Dawkins hider" types could have the right tack is--and this is almost conspiracy theory thinking--if they have sat down and thought about the optimal strategy for fomenting a more rational world, and somehow know that it is better to not call a spade a spade, to muffle Dawkins or other straight-shooters, in service of some greater good for society.

But how can anyone know the optimal tack? At least your approach (or Dawkins's) is open, transparent, all cards on the table.



#56093: — 01/03  at  05:28 PM
I once had to employ that " I like Dawkins, but his rhetoric is a little harsh" line. I've got an excuse, though. I'd just started a job in rural North Carolina, and a co-worker spotted me with a copy of Ancestor's Tale, so I wanted to take the edge off any potential confrontation. I was relieved to find out that she was a rational, irreligious lefty, too.



#56094: — 01/03  at  05:41 PM
Well said, PZ.

For my own part, I simply find Dawkins' writings about religion either obvious or not particularly clever so I am not inclined to invoke his writings when I write about creatoinists and the like.

But creationists love to bring him (or Dennett) up as if he is the Elected Spokesperson for Scientists which is utterly false, regardless of how robust or well-considered his views are.

I haven't heard Dawkins speak publicly so i can't attest to his abilities in, say, a "debate" context.

But Miller does a bang-up job debunking creationism (sometimes he's too generous to his opponents, I think, but other times I think he is strategically employing backhanded compliments) even if he doesn't press the "science versus religion" button.



's avatar #56095: Chris Clarke — 01/03  at  05:43 PM
But Mr. Easterbrook, ignorant is the charitable description of Americans who don't believe we evolved! Dawkins was offering them a nice, easy out!

"I do not think we should antagonize the religious when it is not warranted, though I think we should be willing to do so whenever it is.”
-- Glen Davidson



#56097: — 01/03  at  05:46 PM
PZ

"We shouldn't snatch it away, but sorry, everyone, let's be honest: it's a crutch, a waste of time, a shroud that prevents you from seeing a real and terrible beauty."

Preach it, brother! ;)

For the same reason, I advocate at least one decent acid trip for every healthy person above age 16. Acid is to scientific reality what scientific reality is to religion.



#56098: — 01/03  at  05:53 PM
The truth that the religious dare not speak is that it is not just evolutionary biology that threatens their religious belief, it is all of science.



Trackback: Crown clade of Creation Tracked on: Creek Running North (65.58.240.229) at 2006 01 03 17:24:22
"The sequence of study found in all other current biology texts can implant a subtle evolutionary philosophy in the students' minds. The Christian teacher will find that the unique A Beka Book approach to biology eliminates the conflict which results...



#56099: Buridan — 01/03  at  05:54 PM
Wonderful piece PZ!

"the scientific community encompasses many points of view and there is no reason to hide that fact. At the same time, let's not play into the hands of the creationists by unintentionally sending the message that science is automatically derisive of religion."

The irony of those two statements is thick. It's the creationists who have always prattled out that tired old canard of "science being derisive of religion" not scientists and "we" fall for the emperors new clothes every time. "We" always play into their hands whenever "we" warn "ourselves" against upsetting the religious applecart – think about it. Why "we" continually fall for this rouse is beyond me? I tire of seeing otherwise intelligent people being lead around by the Religious Right's leash. I guess if there's no reason to hide the fact that some scientists are atheists, then why do you John Rennie and others continue to do so?

This is such a non-issue folks but it seems to haunt certain devout members of the scientific community to no end. Somehow the mere mention of it is supposed to legitimize it as a worrisome issue. It's not. As I've said many times before: Science doesn't care about your personal religious beliefs or the lack thereof. Get over it! Reconcile your religious insecurities on someone else's turf and time.



#56100: — 01/03  at  05:58 PM
Thanks for the great post again, Dr. Myers; you deserve to be mentioned along with Dawkins.
I was dismayed to see Gould refer to "non-overlapping magisteria" in his last (?) work. He had been a hero to me up until writing that apologia.
When Bush the First claimed that atheists should not even be considered citizens, that was a clear declaration of war. I have no problem taking their binkies away (or at least holding them up to the light).



#56101: — 01/03  at  05:59 PM
It's true that there is a hideously prejudiced prevailing attitude about atheists in this country - they're seen as inherently immoral, soulless, baby-Jesus-hating freaks. But is the right response to be prejudiced back, to reply to the bigotry with our own moral superiority. I think that's really the message of PZ's conclusion:

That's too bad, but I don't think the right answer is to reassure everyone that it's OK to huddle away, or that their threadbare blanket is a splendid and precious thing. We shouldn't snatch it away, but sorry, everyone, let's be honest: it's a crutch, a waste of time, a shroud that prevents you from seeing a real and terrible beauty. The real heroes of science are the ones who shed old superstitions and confront a harsh and callous universe without comforting, misleading fables.


If I were a believer, this would be offensive to me, especially if I combined religiousity in my private consciousness with firm trust in the scientific method when it comes to questions about natural reality. It's especially damaging to those who believe in a separation of "church and science," who are of course under attack from the fundies, and now find themselves assailed as emotionally immature, intellectually dishonest wimps who can't live without their blankies. Why can't we not judge others' private beliefs and means of organizing their internal thought processes? If we accord respect to atheists, as we should, why can't we do likewise for the full spectrum of metaphysical opinions, so long as they do not contradict reality?



#56102: Sean — 01/03  at  06:00 PM
Hear hear, PZ. Innocent that I am, I tend to be a little surprised at the ready acceptance of the "we shouldn't tell people that science and religion are really in conflict, since people won't like it" idea. That may or may not be a good public-relations strategy. But it's not the truth; and I think that we should first figure out what the truth is, and only afterwards develop our PR strategy to best spread the truth.



#56103: — 01/03  at  06:09 PM
"If we accord respect to atheists, as we should, why can't we do likewise for the full spectrum of metaphysical opinions, so long as they do not contradict reality?"

I think that's the point. I'm as militant an atheist as anybody and I have no problem with the full spectrum of metaphysical opinions that don't contradict reality. This spectrum reaches from metaphysical naturalism all the way to (possibly) deism. That's all there is to it. Any interventionist deity, any supernaturalism, claimed by religions is clearly contradicted by reality.



#56104: Bryson Brown — 01/03  at  06:33 PM
The trouble with the generous tack just suggested by dkon is twofold.
1. It won't be reciprocated: The attitude of all but the most generously liberal believers (and they are pretty rare) is that to be an atheist is to be some kind of monster: untrustworthy, cynical and ultimately downright evil. (After all, for the strictly inclined, our state of mind has to be sufficiently blameworthy to merit eternal torture.) As Dawkins emphasizes, the use of religious belief as a marker of 'in' and 'out' groups is not incidental: It's a critical part of the operation. Even the ecumenically minded seem to think that having some such belief is essential for good character.
2. It suggests some kind of intellectual parity between religious belief and atheism. But religious belief is rarely consistent--especially the really fervid variety. And consistency is the best it can do: There's no explanatory power, because there's no systematic theory of God(s) and how they operate in the world. There are no predictions (prophecy being, on the evidence, just another form of tabloid psychic exercise trading in multiple predictions, vagueness, and post-hoc interpretive maneuvers.
Further to this point, the presently fashionable response to the problem of evil is skeptical theism, a view that requires God's purposes in the world be entirely obscure to such poor things as us. (Of course the problem of evil makes little impression on fundamentalists, who are all very happy to relegate the rest of us to eternal punishment in hell, and happy to accept massive suffering in this world as 'god's will', or some mysterious and indirect and strkingly inefficient way to teach us something or other. But this is a real consistency problem for such non-skeptical views.)
Beliefs based in science actually have to pass a real test, in their applications to prediction, observation, and the production of new phenomena. Religious 'beliefs' do none of these things-- the idea that this kind of language is 'truth-apt' in a sense that is on a par with the language of science or simple common-sense is a pure fantasy.

So I think keeping quiet about skeptical views of religion is a form of silent lie-- and that it won't help anyway.



#56105: — 01/03  at  06:52 PM
However, I do think that the processes of science are antithetical to the processes of religion—personal revelation and dogma are not accepted forms of evidence in the sciences—and that people can encompass both clashing ideas is nothing but a testimony to the flexibility of the human mind

The two processes are antithetical, agreed. But it is a metaphysical, not a scientific position to say that religious/supernatural phenomena don't occur, which is what Dawkins claims. I don't see a problem with scientists (or anyone else) having faith in things that science cannot examine. I don't do it myself, but I don't object to it in principle.

Of course, the problem comes when religious people invoke their particular dogma in the service of questioning science. That's not good, but it sadly happens a lot.



#56106: — 01/03  at  07:33 PM
I agree with Andy Groves that there is no scientific way to disprove purely supernatural beliefs; "nonoverlapping magisteria" and all that. But what I think is most important is to think about this as a human issue rather than a logical one. All humans cling to irrational or arational beliefs, or spend their time in less than optimal manner, or feel emotions which are inherently not logical. Do we all deserve to be excoriated for this? Of course (as a scientist) I respect and enjoy the pursuit of a rational understanding of the natural world, but even scientists do not live by it alone. So if a scientist puts on a yarmulke on Sabbath, or goes to church on Sunday, or performs a sunrise dance on the rez, I assert he/she is just as worthy of respect as an atheist who, I don't know, reads fantasy instead. Or rides a bike.

So on this I would like to disagree with Bryson Brown: I think at a human level, there is an intellectual parity between atheism and religion - because neither is an intellectual position. Both are beliefs that help us live, that organize our brain patters, and that are deeply influenced by socialization. Indeed, I hypothesize that my own wishy-washy agnosticism is a product of a childhood in Soviet Union, where religion was under wraps or forbidden, and thus was not forced on me, while some of my American friends feel a visceral repulsion from even a hint of Christianity because they were clobbered by it. This only demonstrates to me that faith and lack of faith are deeply socialized thought patterns, which is why I think they are two sides of the same coin.

As for the fundamentalists not replying in kind (Bryson's point 1) - well I never expected them to, but why should they set the standard for us?



#56107: — 01/03  at  07:51 PM
On the political side of the equation, we are beginning to see a distancing between so called progressives and secularists. For some reason, the Democratic Party thinks it needs more religion to win back a majority of congress and atheists are being told in no uncertain terms to stop wasting America's time with "frivolous" cases like Newdow's Pledge of Allegiance case. It's as if the so called progressives have determined that theocracy is just the spice to win elections. Sadly, they may be right.

Secularists need to quit the infighting and band together before we are crushed under foot of the religious right AND left.



#56111: — 01/03  at  08:25 PM
If it is a "metaphysical, not a scientific position to say that religious/supernatural phenomena don't occur," then is it also unscientific to say that paranormal phenomena don't occur? Can a scientist legitimately claim that, on the basis of the evidence, homeopathy, ESP, psychokensis, bioenergetic fields, and astrology probably do not occur and, while not absolutely disproven, should not be included in one's view of how the world works? What about angels and reincarnation? Quantum consciousness and astral projection?

If the first scientist is stepping out of his field, then I think it's a bit hard to explain why the second scientist isn't also stepping out of his field and getting into "metaphysics." Is the dividing line between religion and the paranormal really that clear and strong? Who calls it?



#56112: — 01/03  at  08:38 PM
I think dimitry's plea for mutuality misses the point.

I couldn't care less about somebody's metaphysical musings so long as either 1) they don't try to put them into action; or 2) they put them into action but the results are benign or (at least) inoffensive.

It's religion in practice that hurts people, not kooky beliefs per se.

If antireligionists are going to engage the evil of religion, they ought to do it on the ground. It doesn't hurt anyone that Pat Robertson's view about dinosaurs are unsupportable, but it is harmful that he steals money from mentally ill people.

Anybody, of any faith or none, ought to be able to figure that out. If they can't, they're morally blind and deserve the same scorn and social ostracism as any other criminal.

This pragmatic approach also gets me around an obstable that a friend of mine raised many years ago. It's one thing to preach for something, he said, but it just feels weird to preach that there's nothing.

We are often accused of merely having a 'different' faith but still a faith (dimitry isn't the only person who uses this canard). Then other faiths can ask to muscle into, say, the labs on the grounds that faith is faith is faith.

Well, when you preach militant atheism, it does seem to mimic preaching a faith.

Fortunately for atheists, Christian (to take only the local variety of religion) crimes are so prevalent that you could spend a lifetime campaigning against them without ever bothering about metaphysical doctrines.

Just cataloguing the self-contradictory blatherings of the American Catholic bishops (see, for example, the St. Sebastian v. St. Peter thread at http://www.dailyduck.blogspot.com) leaves me fatigued.



#56113: Morgan — 01/03  at  08:41 PM
I don't really see what you can exclude from legitimate scientific consideration that wouldn't necessarily be an epiphenomenon. If something has an effect in the natural world then what makes it impossible for science to investigate it? What things do people hold religious beliefs about which if true would not in any way influence observable, natural things? It seems to me that only such things can be herded into a 'non-overlapping magisterium' beside science, and don't see that there's then any good reason to give a damn about whatever's found within.



#56115: Nathan Zamprogno — 01/03  at  08:51 PM
I have to disagree. Although PZ has nailed his colours to the mast such that no one would be confused as to where he stands, I am a fan of Gould's "non overlapping magisterium" idea. Science, PZ, is not "antithetical" to religion because Science, properly practiced, has nothing to say about the whys and "ultimate" causes of Nature. Science, indeed causes baser forms of superstition to recede, and properly so. Thus, we believe epilepsy is neural miswiring and not demonic posession; Hurricanes are weather, not divine anger.

The point I continue to make (see link to my blog) is that if the aim is to defeat specious Young Earth Creationism then you should go out of your way to show Science is not co-opted by athiestic zealots. Do you want Young Earth Creationist groups to wither and die? Do you want their "Creation Museums" to go bankrupt? Do you want their funding and Church-based support to evaporate? Firing from the fort of humanism plays to their prejudices. Why not egg on Christians like Kenneth Miller (author of the excellent and relevent "Finding Darwin's God") who are happy to meld Faith in God and all the findings of modern Science regarding the age of the Earth, the reality of Natural Selection and so on, and who does so without succumbing to the specious claims of ID or YEC. PZ has his place, and good on him (up to a point). I get frustrated by his unhelpful contribution to those of us trying to defeat YEC and ID from within Christianity.



#56117: — 01/03  at  09:12 PM
I want to say amen to Nathan who nicely expressed the political arguments for being tolerant and respectful to allies who happen to be faithful. Although a nonbeliever, I completely support the struggle of reality-based Christians against the fundies, just as much as I support PZ.

As to Harry's point:
It's religion in practice that hurts people, not kooky beliefs per se.

Well sometimes the practice of religion hurts people, sometimes it helps them. Tell me how folks like Nathan are being harmful to science or to anyting. I think ultimately the actions and not the metaphysical musings should be the measure of each one, which is precisely why I object to the militant dismissal of all believers, regardless of whether they are on our side (reality) or not.
Dmitry



's avatar #56120: Chris Clarke — 01/03  at  09:24 PM
Tell me how folks like Nathan are being harmful to science or to anything.

You mean aside from his haughty condescension, granting that people like PZ have their "place," but excoriating him for being unhelpful in spreading an alleged science-friendly Christianity? Saying that our task is to "go out of [our] way to show science is not co-opted by atheistic zealots," thus ceding the terms of the debate to the fundamentalists and casting his religion as the only legitimate alternative?

That's religious intolerance dressed up in a nice liberal cardigan. If Nathan was serious about defeating YEC and ID from within Christianity, he wouldn't be here castigating biologists who have the temerity to voice their own beliefs. That fact that he is doing so rather counts against his credibility, in my eyes.

"I do not think we should antagonize the religious when it is not warranted, though I think we should be willing to do so whenever it is.”
-- Glen Davidson



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