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Tuesday, January 03, 2006

In praise of godless science

I'm flattered that John Rennie puts me in the same paragraph with Richard Dawkins (and Andrew Brown has me going toe-to-toe with a dead mystery writer—I'm battling the godly everywhere), but while I agree in part with what he's saying, there's also a theme that I have often found troubling and self-destructive.

Just to further clarify, I'm absolutely not arguing for a strategic moratorium on anti-religious arguments. Some critics have suggested that outspokenly atheistic evolution advocates such as Richard Dawkins and PZ Myers should censor themselves for the greater good. I disagree: the scientific community encompasses many points of view and there is no reason to hide that fact. At the same time, let's not play into the hands of the creationists by unintentionally sending the message that science is automatically derisive of religion.

It is entirely correct that the scientific community is full of Christians and Muslims and Buddhists and agnostics and atheists, and I think that's reasonable and fair—we're even pleased to point out to the creationists that many of our leading lights have been and are religious (Dobzhansky, Ayala, Miller, Collins: it isn't at all difficult to find people who can do both good science and follow a religion in their private life). It is self-evident that scientists are not necessarily derisive of religion, and also that science as an abstract concept can't be derisive at all. However, I do think that the processes of science are antithetical to the processes of religion—personal revelation and dogma are not accepted forms of evidence in the sciences—and that people can encompass both clashing ideas is nothing but a testimony to the flexibility of the human mind, which has no problem partitioning and embracing many contradictions. There are also many scientists who are capable of suspending disbelief and reading fantasy novels with pleasure; that doesn't mean that magic is a valid way of manipulating the world.

I really think we (not me, of course, but the general "we" of all of us ladies and gentlemen fighting creationism) go too far in trying to present science as compatible and even friendly to religion. It's not. The whole philosophy of critical thinking and demanding reproducible evidence arms its proponents with a wicked sharp knife that is all too easily applied to religious beliefs, which rely entirely on credulity. While individuals may be happy to sheathe that knife during the church service, filling the pews with ranks of critical individuals while preaching absurdities is a risky business. Why do you think I can't go to church? It's because I'm sitting there with a demanding and hair-trigger critical faculty, thinking "baloney!" at almost every platitude from the preacher, struggling against the urge to stand up and shout "Show me the evidence!" at the pulpit. Even if I keep that urge in control, it's not a comfortable time. The religious know that a well-educated populace with a good background in science would mean church attendance would fade away, especially for the more stridently evangelical/fundamentalist (AKA "insane") sects.

We are being disingenuous when we claim science is compatible with religion. It's compatible with a kind of thoughtful religion that consciously sets itself aside as dealing solely with a metaphysical domain, not the world; it encourages the apostasy of deism and agnosticism, and can easily lead people into the path of atheism. It's far more compatible with freethought than the kinds of religions our opponents, the creationists, hold. It does not mollify that family of Southern Baptists to explain that a college education is likely to allow their kids to emerge still Christian, but critical of fundamentalism, and more impressed with the testimony of rocks than the list of begats in Genesis.

So what we get is a common strain of chronic avoidance of the issue among the pro-evolution crowd. We put up a façade that ignores two important things: 1) the majority of scientists are deists, agnostics, and atheists, who want to promote greater science literacy and rational thinking (but not, explicitly, freethought—that's only a common aftereffect) and 2) the creationists aren't stupid about social issues, and can see right through it—and they are well aware that compromise erodes religion, not vice versa. It's analogous to the way the Intelligent Design creationists pretend to be scientists with no religious motivations*, which is similarly false and transparent.

I do not think that we should marginalize the opinions of scientists who are also religious—far from it, I think it is a good idea to have them there to show that you can do good science while holding some unscientific ideas. However, I also think we ought to do a better job of similarly promoting atheist scientists, not instead of but as a complement to those more socially acceptable theists. Science should be seen as a muscular endeavor, and hiding our fiercest and most fearless advocates behind the scenes is a waste of potential and gives the impression that we're timid and ashamed of many of our best and brightest.

Case in point: Richard Dawkins. How often have you heard the phrase, "I love Dawkins' books, but…" followed by excuses that he's too arrogant, he's too hard on the religious, he's a militant atheist? Here in the US at least, you'll often see Ken Miller the Catholic biologist trotted out as the man to emulate, the unintimidating figure of a scientist with something in common with the ordinary guy on the street (unfairly, too, I think—he ought to be praised as a biologist, a lucid writer, a great speaker, not because of his one failing: he's religious), but you'll never see Dawkins brought up in the same way. He's "far too fierce", as if that were a shortcoming.

It's a strength. Creationists hate the guy because he doesn't just stand against one ludicrous symptom of their belief system, he goes straight to the root with scathing rhetoric against the whole monumental pile of rickety confabulations. Look at how they react to him:

The Christian Courier

Professor Dawkins is not just an atheist. He is a swaggering atheist. He hates religion with a passion and never misses an opportunity to level a blast at those who profess devotion to the Supreme Being.

Albert Mohler

As a militant atheist, Dawkins is living out the inevitable consequences of the Darwinian worldview. The evolutionary perspective is left with the universe as nothing more than a silent box empty of all meaning, intention, and design. Everything within the box must be explained in terms of purely naturalistic materials and processes. The cosmos and everything within it is nothing more than a marvelous--if often malevolent--accident of nature.

Robert Fulford

He won't mute his views of religion to avoid hurting the feelings of believers, as some scientists do. He lost any respect he had for that practice in the aftermath of Sept. 11, 2001, "when prelates and pastors did their tremulous Martin Luther King impersonation and urged people of mutually incompatible faiths to hold hands, united in homage to the very force that caused the problem in the first place."

Gregg Easterbrook

Don't take this personally, but if you are an American adult there is a one in two chance that Richard Dawkins, a renowned professor of science at Oxford, thinks you are "ignorant, stupid or insane," unless you are "wicked." These are the adjectives Dawkins chooses to describe the roughly 100 million Americans adults who, if public opinion polls are right, believe Homo sapiens was created directly by God, rather than gradually by evolution. Ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked. Not much to choose from there!

Michael Novak

…Dawkins in his apoplexy can find no place for believing Jews and Christians except delusion. He thinks of atheism as a place of honor and of religion as a disease; teaching of the latter, a crime; teaching of the former, a way of light, knowledge, and truth.

Christian Courier

Richard Dawkins is a professor of zoology at Oxford University. He describes himself as "a fairly militant atheist, with a fair degree of active hostility toward religion". According to Dawkins, "religion is very largely an enemy of truth". He characterizes the idea that man was created by God as "blasphemy," and insists that "we [atheists] have to fight against" this ideology.

The fact is – it is he, along with those of his anti-intellectual ilk, who are the real enemies of truth, and the adversaries of common sense.

Now, really, how can you but admire someone who gets such press from such execrable sources?

When creationists carp at the uncompromising atheism of people like Dawkins, let's not pander to them and thereby validate their complaints by offering up some more palatable Christian proxy, but instead stand up for them. Yes, he's a forthright atheist…and so was John Maynard Smith and Ernst Mayr and Francis Crick and many, many others. We like them. Have you got a problem with that?

Some people already have the right idea. Jerry Coyne reviewed A Devil's Chaplain : Reflections on Hope, Lies, Science, and Love (amzn/b&n/abe/pwll), and thought that ferocious atheism was admirable.

"Modern theists," writes Dawkins, "might acknowledge that, when it comes to Baal and the Golden Calf, Thor and Wotan, Poseidon and Apollo, Mithras and Ammon Ra, they are actually atheists. We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." But Dawkins goes beyond a mere defence of atheism. He also subscribes to the American writer H. L. Mencken's dictum that: "We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart." Why, asks Dawkins, should the public give religious arguments any more credibility than arguments for other brands of nonscientific 'truth'? Curiously, Dawkins does not explore why religious ideas get undue respect. Surely one reason is that arguing about religion (especially when one participant is an atheist) is unproductive, likely to produce only mutual dislike. No rapprochement is possible between those whose beliefs derive from evidence and those whose beliefs either do not depend on evidence or are unshaken by contrary evidence. This is why science and religion are incompatible ways of viewing the world.

Dawkins' critique of religion rests on three points. First, because different faiths make very different claims about the world, they cannot all be true; and none of the claims (such as the bodily assumption of Mary into heaven) can be scientifically verified. Second, the choice among faiths is not based on rational consideration: the vast majority of people simply practice the religion of their parents. This is especially galling to Dawkins, who sees the easy indoctrination of children as a product of natural selection favouring the rapid spread of information between generations. Finally, Dawkins considers religions to be vehicles of evil because they facilitate the labelling of people as either 'us' or 'them', fostering xenophobia and its attendant horrors — Northern Ireland and the Middle East come to mind.

These views are summarized in a wonderfully passionate essay, "Time To Stand Up", written shortly after 11 September, 2001. One excerpt: "To label people as death-deserving enemies because of disagreements about real-world politics is bad enough. To do the same for disagreements about a delusional world inhabited by archangels, demons, and imaginary friends is ludicrously tragic."

Lest you think it's just because he's a fellow evolutionary biologist (we're almost all godless heathens, you know), Richard Holloway, former Bishop of Edinburgh reviewed the same book, and had this to say.

So the real object of Dawkins's grand Darwinian wrath is not the small person, who comforts herself against the cold winds of reality with the threadbare blanket of religion and the placebos of phony medicine, it is the powerful institutions that exploit her understandable human frailty and give her the stones of illusion instead of the bread of truth.

We have to define Dawkins, therefore, as a moral crusader, a prophet of science as a better way of understanding ourselves than the delusions of religion, whether orthodox or new age. And it is a tragic vision he offers us. The goal of life is life itself. There is no final purpose, no end other than entropy and the end of all endings. But there is deep refreshment to be had "from standing up full-face into the keen wind of understanding". As a recovering Christian, I want to say amen to that…

That's a lovely way to put it, and I agree entirely with it. Unfortunately, people are petty about some things, and when they see someone else throw away their blankie and stride out to face reality, they take it as a personal rebuke, and every suggestion to others that they come out into the light is regarded as an insult to their hidey-hole, their much beloved little binkie. That's too bad, but I don't think the right answer is to reassure everyone that it's OK to huddle away, or that their threadbare blanket is a splendid and precious thing. We shouldn't snatch it away, but sorry, everyone, let's be honest: it's a crutch, a waste of time, a shroud that prevents you from seeing a real and terrible beauty. The real heroes of science are the ones who shed old superstitions and confront a harsh and callous universe without comforting, misleading fables.

Time to stand up.


*I have to make an incredibly charitable concession. I think one of the reasons the creationists push the ID strategy is that they recognize that religious ideas about our origins are currently mired in a ghetto of ignorance—that most creationists believe because they are slaves to dogma. ID is an attempt to provide an intellectually respectable framework within which god-belief can flourish without doing the equivalent of a lobotomy on its proponents, and at least that goal is admirable. It fails because they face the intractable problem of inventing evidence out of a vacuum, and because its leaders aren't very bright. They are cruising along on the brute-force propellant of ideology rather than science, against the thrust of the evidence.


Coyne JA (2003) Gould and God. Nature 422:813-814.


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Comments:
#56123: — 01/03  at  09:43 PM
There's an interesting idea that I think many people miss. Theism predated atheism as an ideology. The only reason people call themselves atheists is because theists make themelves known. e.g. people who don't believe in unicorns are not called 'a-unicornists'. The need does not arise.

Most atheists only discuss atheism because theists push it politically and socially.

Dawkins himself says that fundamentally he isn't very interested in gods. He tells Ben Wattenburg, on PBS: "If you read my books, you'll find that I don't actually talk about God at all. The reason I seem to always talk about God, if I may say so, is that people like you are always asking me about it. I'm not very interested in God. I mean, from my perspective, why God? Why not Thor or Zeus? Why not Apollo or Athena? There are all sorts of gods that people have believed in, and I don't think any of them are much more interesting than any other."



#56130: Phila — 01/03  at  10:57 PM
Well said, but I'm always kind of bothered by constructions like "harsh and callous universe." If, as I assume, you mean that the universe is neutral, I think it's better simply to say that, and avoid value-laden, anthropomorphic terms that have negative connotations. Hell, even "impartial" would be better, I think.



#56131: — 01/03  at  11:22 PM
The non-overlapping magisteria argument is faulty on so many levels it's not funny. It was the first serious exposure I had to Gould's thinking and I've doubted his intellect ever since. Sure he was a talented writer and as a lib arts fan I can appreciate his aesthetic sensibilities, but the idea that science and religion exist in some kind of parallel is so absurd he might as well have been suggesting the moon was made of green cheese.

Religion has, and continues to, make claims about the universe which can be tested by science. It routinely plays in science's sandbox and much of religious doctrine is essentially developed from the same motivation as science: the desire to understand the universe. It just happens that like most first tries at something, it's all wrong on every level. This is where you get ideas like the mother seeing a striped or spotted animal can give birth to a striped or spotted baby. The notion that a man in Jerusalem a few centuries ago could come back from the dead is transparently a science claim, every bit as much as questions about where babies come from (sex, naturally)and what happens do you when you die (you decay).

Further, Gould was not only wrong, but irresponsibly wrong to reserve to religion moral codes. He abdicates the responsibility that science ought have in determining morality. Forget clean and unclean animals. Let me know what kinds of diseases an improperly prepared dish might hold for me. Forget abstinence only and other such programs, give us the information on sexually-transmitted diseases, risks of pregnancy, etc. Those are useful tools from which to make moral decisions, not the ravings of a bunch of thoroughly evil desert madmen and their insane followers.



#56133: — 01/03  at  11:38 PM
"Indeed, I hypothesize that my own wishy-washy agnosticism is a product of a childhood in Soviet Union, where religion was under wraps or forbidden, and thus was not forced on me, while some of my American friends feel a visceral repulsion from even a hint of Christianity because they were clobbered by it."

I've never met you so I certainly don't qualify as an American friend, but I an an American (to my unending sorrow, I'd be so much happier in Scandanavia or France) but I'll admit a visceral repulsion to every form of religion. I respond to the notion of faith about the same way most people respond to the memory of Hitler. But I did not grow up in much of a believing family. Religion was simply not an issue growing up. It's not this revlusion that provoked me to abandon some kind of childhood religiosity, though. I acquired it honestly as soon as I began seriously inquiring into the history and present deeds of major religions. This led to an inquiry into their ethical systems. It's really been all downhill.

A possible outlier: I am a gay man living in a small town in the Midwest. Whether it's interracial marriage, no-fault divorce, same-sex marriage, sodomy laws, or whatever the next few decades bring, the holy folk have been uniformly on the side of repression and hatred. Even when I find a liberal happy to waste his sunday mornings and not bother me about my sex life, I discover that this is treated as some kind of personal favor. I'm expected to admire how broad-minded they are because they've figured out a way for their evil master in the sky to ignore a personal quirk of mine.

Well, thanks. It's wonderful to know that one's convictions do not emanage from reasoned consideration of issues like human rights or even natural empathy but rather from an invisible madman in the sky. For promoting that kind of thinking alone, religion does harm and ought be opposed.



#56140: Brettn — 01/04  at  01:28 AM

These are the adjectives Dawkins chooses to describe the roughly 100 million Americans adults who, if public opinion polls are right, believe Homo sapiens was created directly by God, rather than gradually by evolution. Ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked. Not much to choose from there!


Lets not forget that there are more than 5 billion other people in the planet, of which, only approximately 30% ahere to Christianity and so it needs to be remembered that Christians are in the very vast minority.

And anyway, it needs to be recognised how arbitrary religion is. Another approach (other than Dawkins et al frontal attack) is to ask a Christian (or for that matter anyone of any faith) a really hard question like:

(To a Christian) What would you do if Buddhism was "proven" tomorrow?

It really shows how arbitrary religion really is!



#56141: — 01/04  at  01:38 AM
those commenters who seem to be finding fault with the tone of prof myer's post might reread it carefully looking for inflammatory content as I did after reading those comments. I found none: it is not hysterical; there is no name calling (OK, labeling that specific group "insane" may not be clinically accurate, but as shorthand for "emotionally and/or intellectually crippled" it's close enough) and some very mild snarkiness in the last paragraph; it makes some concessions to more rational forms of religion; and it calls for no aggressive action other than forthrightly stating facts or opinions. hence, the inevitable conclusion is that those commenters simply don't like the message (the incompatibility of science and religion). a message challenging one's core beliefs, religious or not, is inevitably going to grate, but that doesn't make the tone inappropriate.

a quibble with the message: it might be useful to modify it by limiting the religious postures deemed incompatible with science to those that include belief in observed manifestations of the supernatural, thereby accommodating what I would guess is a sizable number of people who might consider themselves to be religious but whose beliefs don't actually conflict with current scientific knowledge.

another quibble, actually a complement to pete k's comment: his implicit definition of atheism (= not theism), tho not the webster definition (belief there is no "diety"), is probably closer to the posture of most non-believers. however, my impression is that the common understanding of the term is closer to the webster definition plus an element of militantism (hence the use of that word in several quotes in prof myers's post). thus, care in using the term is advisable, perhaps limiting it to self-identified "atheists" and otherwise using terms like "non-believer", "non-religious" (my label of choice), or "freethinker" that convey fewer implicit meanings. but whatever the term, I agree that emphasizing the low incidence of religious fundamentalism among scientists might be good policy, raising as it would the question why so few among a large group of really smart people are so disposed.



#56143: — 01/04  at  01:54 AM
One of the best essays I've read in ages. Personally, I've never read anything by Dawkins on the topic of religion where I haven't found myself nodding in agreement.


Nathan Zamprogno said:
The point I continue to make is that if the aim is to defeat specious Young Earth Creationism then you should go out of your way to show Science is not co-opted by athiestic zealots. Do you want Young Earth Creationist groups to wither and die? Do you want their "Creation Museums" to go bankrupt? Do you want their funding and Church-based support to evaporate?
Yes, but that doesn't mean we have any desire to see it replaced with an equally silly, though less scientifically incompatible, belief system. You may stop at wanting to oust the creationists from christianity, but some of us would like to live in a rational world where the dictates of an ancient mythology doesn't enter into the decision-making process of a majority of the voting population in the first place.



#56149: logopetria — 01/04  at  03:03 AM
A great article: in principle, I agree with it entirely. I look forward to the day when rational thinkers feel free to advocate rational thought as loudly and fiercely as the fundamentalists trumpet their nonsense. In a sane nation, views like Dawkins' would be -- at the very least -- respected as part of the debate, rather than dismissed as ranting invective; and morons like Easterbrook would be widely laughed at and pitied, as we laugh at him and pity him.

Unfortunately, the US at present is not in such a position. It is a nation where atheists can be derided as "non-citizens", and are less well trusted than used-car salesmen. That's why I still have a lingering doubt about declaring all-out war between atheist scientists and religious irrationalists -- just on practical grounds, if we start this war, do we have any hope of winning it?

The position Prof. Myers takes is of course right: many popular religious beliefs are simply incompatible with the scientific mindset, and if that's the truth then we have a duty to say it. But there's a gap between what we should do and what we can do -- or rather, what it would be advantageous for us to do. To draw a timely analogy: Saddam was a horrible dictator, and the world would be a better place with him removed from power; but unless there's a way to do it that overall achieves our goals, and doesn't just make things worse, then it's not the appropriate thing to do.

Doing "the right thing" isn't always enough. We have to be able to do the right thing and do it right. In this case, if we join the fundamentalist preachers in saying "you've got to choose: you can have your religion, or science, but not both", which way do you think a majority of Americans will move?

Before I'm misunderstood, I should say that I'm not advocating a particular course of action here -- not saying that we should all become Ken Miller. I'm just pointing out that we should keep in mind the outcome we want, understand the situation we start from, and tailor our actions accordingly.



#56150: — 01/04  at  03:11 AM
Actually, I think the idea of non-overlapping spheres is quite useful, as there are spheres that do not overlap with science, specifically ethics and aesthetics.

The reason that they do not overlap is that science cannot determine whether one goal is "better" then the other. Most human ethics are based on the idea that human life should be preserved, but how can this be proven scientifically? Science can only say how well a given method works at preserving human life, but it cannot demonstrate that the goal itself is superior to other goals.

At least I've yet to hear anybody explain how it can.

The problem with Gould's theory, as well as the discussion here, is that Christianity weds the non-overlapping spheres quite closely to the overlapping ones. Christian ethics stem from empirical assertions; God exists, and wants us to do some things but not others.

A moments reflection will tell us that an assertion that something exists, and has certain traits, is in fact a scientific assertion, and can only really be made if it has first been ascertained scientifically, that is, through observation.

American religion is best expressed as a hierarchy:

It consists of empirical claims, which express
Ethical claims, which in turn lead to
Real-world practices.

In some ways the pro-religion and anti-religion scientists are talking past each other; the former admire the ethical claims and practices, and thus feel that theempirical claims are irrelevant, whereas the latter focus on the absurdity of the empirical claims, which are important because they form the basis of the ethics and practices.

Me, I see no problem in addressing all empirical claims through science. Yes, it may hurt some people's feelings, but when your ideas aren't subject to criticism, mental decay sets in. Not criticising or discussing things leads to real-world trouble.



#56152: — 01/04  at  03:25 AM
Actually, no one needs to gloss over their views about religion in order to sell the theory of evolution. It does a fine job of selling itself. It's accepted everywhere biology is done. Resistance is futile.

Biology may be particularly corrosive of faith. Perhaps less than half of working scientists are believers, as Myers says (a recent Atlantic article says about the same). The famous survey of members of the National Academy of Sciences, if I recall correctly, found far fewer, and nearly none among biologists. Mathematicians were the most credulous. Go figure.



#56154: — 01/04  at  04:19 AM
When I was a child growing up in mid-twentieth century America, virtually the only hoboes one saw were people who voluntarily chose a tramp's life, insane asylums were the places psychotics were sent so they wouldn't harm themselves or others, and shanty villages of homeless people were a memory from the Great Depression.

Now we live in a society where the homeless camp under bridges and in parks, and the insane wander the streets when they are not in the clutches of our largest provider of mental health "services" - the prison system.

Certainly there are charitable atheists but when you get down in the trenches with people who are struggling day to day to relieve the suffering of the least of us, they are almost inevitably religiously motivated. I did see a news item recently that reported that a humanist organization was involved in Katrina relief, but that's an exception that proves the rule. When was the last time you heard about an atheist soupkitchen or a freethinker's homeless shelter?

Surely there are many times when one wishes the religious kept their beliefs out of the world. The French and the Mexicans have good reason for being so vehemently anti-clerical. But the idea that we would always be better off if people kept their religious beliefs to themselves is just hogwash. The world would be a much sorrier place if Martin Luther King Jr. had kept his religious beliefs private. And King was someone whose speeches were chock full of the puerile piddlings of Scripture.

There are also times when one might wish the scientists kept their beliefs out of the world. Biologists tend to start to mumble and shuffle when somebody brings up eugenics ("well, you know, that's social darwinism and that's Spengler, and (cough), he wasn't really a biologist.....") as if many scientists didn't zealously embrace eugenics and weren't just as convinced that they were striding out into the cold bright light of empirical reality. And it's not just something that's a century or more old; one of the interesting tidbits to come out of the South African Truth and Reconciliation hearings was the admission by some microbiologists that they took grant money to develop pathogens that would kill blacks but not whites.

One would think that our host would know better. There's lots of stuff that Professor Myers holds in low esteem, particularly Evolutionary Psychology, that others are just as firmly convinced are just good, empirical, "realistic" science. Perhaps a little humility (Christian or Pagan) would be in order. My prediction is, although some things will remain firmly fixed (heliocentrism, common descent, the atomic hypothesis), that lots and lots of things that we are now sure or fairly sure are true will turn out, in a century or two, to either be flatly wrong or true only in almost unrecognizably modified form.

One of the ironies of the times is that the most militaristic among us are the Christian fundamentalists and yet the machinery of death, on which we Americans spend more than the rest of the world combined, is kept oiled and running by the combined toil of tens of thousands of scientists and engineers. Although rest assured they're mostly liberals and at least agnostic!

When the Christian Peacekeeping Team in Iraq was kidnapped recently, I did some reading about them. It turns out that some twenty years or so ago members of several Anabaptist denominations (you know, those radical protestants that take that bit of the puerile piddlings of Scripture about not killing to heart and refuse to bear arms, though many have served bravely as ambulance drivers and medics) met and decided that passive pacifism wasn't enough. They decided that what was needed in these times, and what their religious convictions demanded, was an active pacifism. So they go out into the world and put their bodies between warring peoples. They don't just read the Sermon on the Mount, they try to put it into effect. I think we could use a lot more of that sort of radicalism and a lot less realism. (Maybe that's why we haven't found any SETI signals; anybody who might have sent a signal were lead by realists.)

I'm an atheist. That is, I think that disembodied entities are flatly impossible (so no ghosts, demons, angels, or ancestral spirits for me, much less any traditional or contemporary god or gods). But this strident atheism that proclaims we're going to leave all that bad religious stuff behind (oh, but if you insist you can keep your religion, just keep it at home, OK?) and bravely face the pointless universe under the banner of science is ahistorical bullshit. As if science were something more than a small ship of knowledge on a still very large sea of ignorance and mystery. As if people in groups aren't going to continue to need ritual and narrative and dance and music to guide us on our way - all that religious stuff.

And that phrase, "puerile piddlings of Scripture," that's just plain coyote ugly. I'd rather chew my arm off than be associated with atheism if that's what atheism is. I need a new neologism.



#56157: — 01/04  at  04:45 AM
My experience is that atheists are immoderately fond of narrative and dance and music, among other things.



#56161: — 01/04  at  07:08 AM
I agree with the article, in as much as Prof. Myers makes it very clear that religion which makes claims about testable phenomena is in direct conflict with science. But, the most intriging sentance, IMHO, was the following, "The religious know that a well-educated populace with a good background in science would mean church attendance would fade away, especially for the more stridently evangelical/fundamentalist (AKA "insane") sects."

It seems to me that what needs to happen is to eliminate both the willful manipuation of the faithful by church leaders, and the willful ignorance of the faithful.

It would probably be far easier to reduce the ignorance of the faithful if the manipulation by the leaders ceased. Since the leaders have a vested interest in maintaining their cash cow, of course they will attack anything which threatens to reduce church attendance.

Would publishing the financial records of church leaders help? I doubt it. It's been done, along with publishing other peccadillos. The leaders just ask for forgiveness from their flock of sheep, and continue as before. Opiate indeed.

Disclaimer: I am specifically referring to fundamentalist churches which hold the bible (or koran, or torah, or etc.) as an idol to worship in it's perfection. Churchs which promote the idea of a personal relationship with a diety without inflexible dogma don't seem to be as much as a problem.

-Flex



#56171: — 01/04  at  08:18 AM
Great post. Dawkins should be required reading for American High School Seniors.

I too find science and religion incompatible. Just as the Discovery Institute has set out to make creationsim respectable, I would like to see a group set out to make atheism more widely accepted. It seems so clear to me that there is no God. I am stunned when I hear people speak of their religious beliefs. It makes no sense. I think the more people like Dawkins and yourself who openly state their atheism the better. Most atheists are "in the closet." I profess from here on to mince no words about my atheism.



#56173: Jonathan Bartlett — 01/04  at  08:38 AM
Nathan --

While NOMA may be compatible with some forms of Deism, it is precisely counter to _any_ form of Christianity. It says, basically, that all _facts_ are with the sciences, and everything non-factual can be left to religious causes.

This is all well and good if you are a deist, but not if you are a Christian. Christians must specifically believe that God has intervened in history, at a minimum in the resurrection of Jesus. If science contains all of the facts, then anything that would be non-scientific (i.e. Jesus rising from the dead) would also be counter-factual. Therefore, in order to be a Christian, there is a minimum of one event which must cross the line between magisteria.

It is one thing to say that science is materialistic as a result of methodological issues, but if the materialism of science is the result of methodology, then it can't speak to the factuality or non-factuality of assertions of things that lay beyond its methodology, and it is easy to confuse the cases of "science says X because that is the only reasonable explanation" and "science says X because that is the only reasonable explanation _allowed by its methodology_". These cases are not equivalent, but they are often confused.



#56174: Jonathan Bartlett — 01/04  at  08:42 AM
Samnell:

"Forget abstinence only and other such programs, give us the information on sexually-transmitted diseases, risks of pregnancy, etc. Those are useful tools from which to make moral decisions, not the ravings of a bunch of thoroughly evil desert madmen and their insane followers."

You are confusing expedient decisions with moral ones. I think you should clarify your terms, because what it seems to me that you are asserting is that there are no moral decisions at all, only expedient ones, and the goal is to find decisions which are the most expedient. If I read you wrong, please let me know.



's avatar #56175: Chris Clarke — 01/04  at  08:42 AM
that's just plain coyote ugly.

Hey! Leave my religion out of this!

"I do not think we should antagonize the religious when it is not warranted, though I think we should be willing to do so whenever it is.”
-- Glen Davidson



#56178: — 01/04  at  09:03 AM
Enon Zey

the machinery of death, on which we Americans spend more than the rest of the world combined, is kept oiled and running by the combined toil of tens of thousands of scientists and engineers. Although rest assured they're mostly liberals and at least agnostic!

This makes absolutely no sense. First of all, it conflates religious beliefs with a political system. Are you saying that conservatives are not capable of being agnostics or atheists?

Second of all, most of what takes place in the military is engineering, not science. I haven't done any formal research but my personal experience is that engineers have a great propensity towards fundamentalism and fascism. So I'd like you to come up with some data to back up your assertion that these miltary scientists and engineers are liberal "or at least agnostic"



#56180: — 01/04  at  09:08 AM
Jonathan Bartlett wrote

You are confusing expedient decisions with moral ones.

He's in good compnay if he is. From Ambrose Bierce's The Devil's Dictionary

MORAL, adj. Conforming to a local and mutable standard of right. Having the quality of general expediency.

It is sayd there be a raunge of mountaynes in the Easte, on one syde of the which certayn conducts are immorall, yet on the other syde they are holden in good esteeme; wherebye the mountayneer is much conveenyenced, for it is given to him to goe downe eyther way and act as it shall suite his moode, withouten offence.

_Gooke's Meditations_


Just thought I'd lighten your day smile.

-Flex



's avatar #56181: PZ Myers — 01/04  at  09:32 AM
<blockquote>And that phrase, "puerile piddlings of scripture," that's just plain coyote ugly. I'd rather chew my arm off than be associated with atheism if that's what atheism is. I need a new neologism.</blockquote>
It's interesting how deeply imbedded respect for that bad ol' book is in our culture. State the plain truth -- that it's got some brilliant bits, it's got some long ghastly stretches, and overall, if it weren't for a near-universal pattern of indoctrination, it would be panned as a sloppy mish-mash of crazy thinking--and people start talking about chewing their arms off.

Enon: it's not worth it. It's just a book. And your arm won't grow back.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#56186: Keith Douglas — 01/04  at  09:57 AM
Jonathan Bartlett: It is quite true that Christianity puts the problem with Gould's thesis in relief. However, deism has the same problem: "external to the universe"? Well, if that's taken in the physicist's sense of universe, it is pretty reasonable to claim that a creature which caused the expansion of a hubble volume is not a god - it could in principle have been done by an insane child, after all. If it is the original sense of universe, matters get worse, since "outside the universe" in that sense is nonsensical. (Outside everything?)

There is also, as others remarked, the ethical problem. Science has a lot to say about ethics, though not quite in the way one often thinks. A good way to think about it in my view is to recognize first that any ethical system that does not take into account consequences of actions (or rules) is otiose (even John Rawls says so in A Theory of Justice). Then what is science for? Determining the outcome of actions or rules. The plans for actual implementation of rules based on science is technology in my view, hence why technology and not science is morally committed.

As for metaphysical views that have no impact, so "let me live in peace" - well, we live in democratic societies, so we have to come to agreement about how to live together, hence debate and discussion is necessary. I also have a hard time believing that there is truly a view that has no practical import whatsoever. (I have yet to encounter any, and I've made a miniproject for many years looking for them.)

Incidentally, Gould's thesis is also found in a book The Sciences and the Humanities, written many years before. The author, like Gould, fails to realize the factual claims of religion seem to be central to belief (what was that about "if he has not risen, our faith is in vain" or something like that?), though admittedly in some cases the beliefs are more or less in opposition to scientific views of the world. (I will be the first to admit that this comes in degrees.)

(If Raven is reading this thread, I realize I still owe you some of my detailed work on the incompatibility thesis. If you wish, email me about it - I've been busy.)



#56189: — 01/04  at  10:12 AM
"Mathematicians were the most credulous. Go figure."

makes perfect sense. both deal in fantasy worlds created out of thin air (reproducing-kernel hilbert spaces, galois fields, et al) and "religiously" follow unfounded dogma (aka axioms).



#56190: Seth Gordon — 01/04  at  10:25 AM
The creationists will always be able to find somebody, no matter how obscure, to fit their stereotype of the Nasty Atheistic Darwinist, and then use that person to "prove" the stereotype. (Look at how Republican wing-nuts have seized on Michael Moore to fit their stereotype of the Flaky Pacifistic Democrat, even though Moore voted for Nader in 2000.) So if you happen to be an atheist who believes in evolution, I don't see what you gain by hiding your atheism.



#56194: — 01/04  at  10:42 AM
"scientists and engineers [are] mostly liberals and at least agnostic"
"engineers have a great propensity towards fundamentalism and fascism"

to make a reasonable guess, it might help to understand what used to motivate the choice of engineering as a prefession (being an retiree, I can't speak to present situation). engineering was the preferred stepping stone out of the lower middle class for moderately bright people and consequently tended to be fairly representative of that demographic group. therefore, altho I have no data except the personal experiences of nearly 50 years dealing with many engineers, I think it's a pretty safe bet that at least older engineers are on average quite mainstream - which, unfortunately, appears to be closer the to the second quote than the first.



#56209: — 01/04  at  12:27 PM
State the plain truth -- that it's got some brilliant bits, it's got some long ghastly stretches, and overall, if it weren't for a near-universal pattern of indoctrination, it would be panned as a sloppy mish-mash of crazy thinking--and people start talking about chewing their arms off.


I know what you're saying, but I do have more respect for ancient writings than that. One reason is simply that it is ancient, and often writings from certain times and places are rare. Another is that the Bible contains historical information that cannot be gained from any other source, though it is true that dealing with such evidence is dicey and difficult. Even as simply a snapshot in time (probably around the period of Babylonian captivity) of what Jewish scholars thought important, it is of interest. Culturally it is important, of course, with a need to know the Bible to really understand Shakespeare and many other writers well.

Most, perhaps all, of the books are not sloppy as individual works. Though the histories and stories don't utilize the methods that we expect today, much of the information is relayed carefully and with due concern for veracity (the difficulty regarding veracity is that the "standard" used is generally agreement with the cult and with earlier "holy writings--yet one should not fault the scholars for not knowing what we know today).

The fact is that mostly we try to take ancient writings on the terms of their context and standards of thinking. The Pentateuch is best understood as foundational for henotheistic Israelite religion, with interesting slips about the past tolerance for polytheism showing through. The Psalms are excellent cultic hymns, some of which apparently were sung in Temple ceremonies. The histories contain important information, though one must use them cautiously. Prophetic books record the problems the Jews had in coming to terms with the apparent breaches of promises by Yahweh, but also interestingly include denunciations of wealth and privilege that would make many leftists happy. The NT continues much of that prophetic tradition, trying to work through Yahweh's lapses, plus some more denunciations of oppression (with unfortunate quietism being urged by Paul).

That hardly covers the worth of such ancient writings. Of course the sloppy mish-mash is there in the collection of these many disparate works together into a single "book", with near pagan rituals being prescribed in the early books, and Platonic-style depictions of God appearing in the NT. Together it makes little sense. Separately many of the books make sense according to Jewish, and, later, Christian cultures. Little of it has much meaning for today for those who are well-educated (not that many, really), except as evidence of the evolution of culture from earlier times.

I write this because I do not think we should antagonize the religious when it is not warranted, though I think we should be willing to do so whenever it is.

Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/b8ykm



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