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Tuesday, January 03, 2006

In praise of godless science

I'm flattered that John Rennie puts me in the same paragraph with Richard Dawkins (and Andrew Brown has me going toe-to-toe with a dead mystery writer—I'm battling the godly everywhere), but while I agree in part with what he's saying, there's also a theme that I have often found troubling and self-destructive.

Just to further clarify, I'm absolutely not arguing for a strategic moratorium on anti-religious arguments. Some critics have suggested that outspokenly atheistic evolution advocates such as Richard Dawkins and PZ Myers should censor themselves for the greater good. I disagree: the scientific community encompasses many points of view and there is no reason to hide that fact. At the same time, let's not play into the hands of the creationists by unintentionally sending the message that science is automatically derisive of religion.

It is entirely correct that the scientific community is full of Christians and Muslims and Buddhists and agnostics and atheists, and I think that's reasonable and fair—we're even pleased to point out to the creationists that many of our leading lights have been and are religious (Dobzhansky, Ayala, Miller, Collins: it isn't at all difficult to find people who can do both good science and follow a religion in their private life). It is self-evident that scientists are not necessarily derisive of religion, and also that science as an abstract concept can't be derisive at all. However, I do think that the processes of science are antithetical to the processes of religion—personal revelation and dogma are not accepted forms of evidence in the sciences—and that people can encompass both clashing ideas is nothing but a testimony to the flexibility of the human mind, which has no problem partitioning and embracing many contradictions. There are also many scientists who are capable of suspending disbelief and reading fantasy novels with pleasure; that doesn't mean that magic is a valid way of manipulating the world.

I really think we (not me, of course, but the general "we" of all of us ladies and gentlemen fighting creationism) go too far in trying to present science as compatible and even friendly to religion. It's not. The whole philosophy of critical thinking and demanding reproducible evidence arms its proponents with a wicked sharp knife that is all too easily applied to religious beliefs, which rely entirely on credulity. While individuals may be happy to sheathe that knife during the church service, filling the pews with ranks of critical individuals while preaching absurdities is a risky business. Why do you think I can't go to church? It's because I'm sitting there with a demanding and hair-trigger critical faculty, thinking "baloney!" at almost every platitude from the preacher, struggling against the urge to stand up and shout "Show me the evidence!" at the pulpit. Even if I keep that urge in control, it's not a comfortable time. The religious know that a well-educated populace with a good background in science would mean church attendance would fade away, especially for the more stridently evangelical/fundamentalist (AKA "insane") sects.

We are being disingenuous when we claim science is compatible with religion. It's compatible with a kind of thoughtful religion that consciously sets itself aside as dealing solely with a metaphysical domain, not the world; it encourages the apostasy of deism and agnosticism, and can easily lead people into the path of atheism. It's far more compatible with freethought than the kinds of religions our opponents, the creationists, hold. It does not mollify that family of Southern Baptists to explain that a college education is likely to allow their kids to emerge still Christian, but critical of fundamentalism, and more impressed with the testimony of rocks than the list of begats in Genesis.

So what we get is a common strain of chronic avoidance of the issue among the pro-evolution crowd. We put up a façade that ignores two important things: 1) the majority of scientists are deists, agnostics, and atheists, who want to promote greater science literacy and rational thinking (but not, explicitly, freethought—that's only a common aftereffect) and 2) the creationists aren't stupid about social issues, and can see right through it—and they are well aware that compromise erodes religion, not vice versa. It's analogous to the way the Intelligent Design creationists pretend to be scientists with no religious motivations*, which is similarly false and transparent.

I do not think that we should marginalize the opinions of scientists who are also religious—far from it, I think it is a good idea to have them there to show that you can do good science while holding some unscientific ideas. However, I also think we ought to do a better job of similarly promoting atheist scientists, not instead of but as a complement to those more socially acceptable theists. Science should be seen as a muscular endeavor, and hiding our fiercest and most fearless advocates behind the scenes is a waste of potential and gives the impression that we're timid and ashamed of many of our best and brightest.

Case in point: Richard Dawkins. How often have you heard the phrase, "I love Dawkins' books, but…" followed by excuses that he's too arrogant, he's too hard on the religious, he's a militant atheist? Here in the US at least, you'll often see Ken Miller the Catholic biologist trotted out as the man to emulate, the unintimidating figure of a scientist with something in common with the ordinary guy on the street (unfairly, too, I think—he ought to be praised as a biologist, a lucid writer, a great speaker, not because of his one failing: he's religious), but you'll never see Dawkins brought up in the same way. He's "far too fierce", as if that were a shortcoming.

It's a strength. Creationists hate the guy because he doesn't just stand against one ludicrous symptom of their belief system, he goes straight to the root with scathing rhetoric against the whole monumental pile of rickety confabulations. Look at how they react to him:

The Christian Courier

Professor Dawkins is not just an atheist. He is a swaggering atheist. He hates religion with a passion and never misses an opportunity to level a blast at those who profess devotion to the Supreme Being.

Albert Mohler

As a militant atheist, Dawkins is living out the inevitable consequences of the Darwinian worldview. The evolutionary perspective is left with the universe as nothing more than a silent box empty of all meaning, intention, and design. Everything within the box must be explained in terms of purely naturalistic materials and processes. The cosmos and everything within it is nothing more than a marvelous--if often malevolent--accident of nature.

Robert Fulford

He won't mute his views of religion to avoid hurting the feelings of believers, as some scientists do. He lost any respect he had for that practice in the aftermath of Sept. 11, 2001, "when prelates and pastors did their tremulous Martin Luther King impersonation and urged people of mutually incompatible faiths to hold hands, united in homage to the very force that caused the problem in the first place."

Gregg Easterbrook

Don't take this personally, but if you are an American adult there is a one in two chance that Richard Dawkins, a renowned professor of science at Oxford, thinks you are "ignorant, stupid or insane," unless you are "wicked." These are the adjectives Dawkins chooses to describe the roughly 100 million Americans adults who, if public opinion polls are right, believe Homo sapiens was created directly by God, rather than gradually by evolution. Ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked. Not much to choose from there!

Michael Novak

…Dawkins in his apoplexy can find no place for believing Jews and Christians except delusion. He thinks of atheism as a place of honor and of religion as a disease; teaching of the latter, a crime; teaching of the former, a way of light, knowledge, and truth.

Christian Courier

Richard Dawkins is a professor of zoology at Oxford University. He describes himself as "a fairly militant atheist, with a fair degree of active hostility toward religion". According to Dawkins, "religion is very largely an enemy of truth". He characterizes the idea that man was created by God as "blasphemy," and insists that "we [atheists] have to fight against" this ideology.

The fact is – it is he, along with those of his anti-intellectual ilk, who are the real enemies of truth, and the adversaries of common sense.

Now, really, how can you but admire someone who gets such press from such execrable sources?

When creationists carp at the uncompromising atheism of people like Dawkins, let's not pander to them and thereby validate their complaints by offering up some more palatable Christian proxy, but instead stand up for them. Yes, he's a forthright atheist…and so was John Maynard Smith and Ernst Mayr and Francis Crick and many, many others. We like them. Have you got a problem with that?

Some people already have the right idea. Jerry Coyne reviewed A Devil's Chaplain : Reflections on Hope, Lies, Science, and Love (amzn/b&n/abe/pwll), and thought that ferocious atheism was admirable.

"Modern theists," writes Dawkins, "might acknowledge that, when it comes to Baal and the Golden Calf, Thor and Wotan, Poseidon and Apollo, Mithras and Ammon Ra, they are actually atheists. We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." But Dawkins goes beyond a mere defence of atheism. He also subscribes to the American writer H. L. Mencken's dictum that: "We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart." Why, asks Dawkins, should the public give religious arguments any more credibility than arguments for other brands of nonscientific 'truth'? Curiously, Dawkins does not explore why religious ideas get undue respect. Surely one reason is that arguing about religion (especially when one participant is an atheist) is unproductive, likely to produce only mutual dislike. No rapprochement is possible between those whose beliefs derive from evidence and those whose beliefs either do not depend on evidence or are unshaken by contrary evidence. This is why science and religion are incompatible ways of viewing the world.

Dawkins' critique of religion rests on three points. First, because different faiths make very different claims about the world, they cannot all be true; and none of the claims (such as the bodily assumption of Mary into heaven) can be scientifically verified. Second, the choice among faiths is not based on rational consideration: the vast majority of people simply practice the religion of their parents. This is especially galling to Dawkins, who sees the easy indoctrination of children as a product of natural selection favouring the rapid spread of information between generations. Finally, Dawkins considers religions to be vehicles of evil because they facilitate the labelling of people as either 'us' or 'them', fostering xenophobia and its attendant horrors — Northern Ireland and the Middle East come to mind.

These views are summarized in a wonderfully passionate essay, "Time To Stand Up", written shortly after 11 September, 2001. One excerpt: "To label people as death-deserving enemies because of disagreements about real-world politics is bad enough. To do the same for disagreements about a delusional world inhabited by archangels, demons, and imaginary friends is ludicrously tragic."

Lest you think it's just because he's a fellow evolutionary biologist (we're almost all godless heathens, you know), Richard Holloway, former Bishop of Edinburgh reviewed the same book, and had this to say.

So the real object of Dawkins's grand Darwinian wrath is not the small person, who comforts herself against the cold winds of reality with the threadbare blanket of religion and the placebos of phony medicine, it is the powerful institutions that exploit her understandable human frailty and give her the stones of illusion instead of the bread of truth.

We have to define Dawkins, therefore, as a moral crusader, a prophet of science as a better way of understanding ourselves than the delusions of religion, whether orthodox or new age. And it is a tragic vision he offers us. The goal of life is life itself. There is no final purpose, no end other than entropy and the end of all endings. But there is deep refreshment to be had "from standing up full-face into the keen wind of understanding". As a recovering Christian, I want to say amen to that…

That's a lovely way to put it, and I agree entirely with it. Unfortunately, people are petty about some things, and when they see someone else throw away their blankie and stride out to face reality, they take it as a personal rebuke, and every suggestion to others that they come out into the light is regarded as an insult to their hidey-hole, their much beloved little binkie. That's too bad, but I don't think the right answer is to reassure everyone that it's OK to huddle away, or that their threadbare blanket is a splendid and precious thing. We shouldn't snatch it away, but sorry, everyone, let's be honest: it's a crutch, a waste of time, a shroud that prevents you from seeing a real and terrible beauty. The real heroes of science are the ones who shed old superstitions and confront a harsh and callous universe without comforting, misleading fables.

Time to stand up.


*I have to make an incredibly charitable concession. I think one of the reasons the creationists push the ID strategy is that they recognize that religious ideas about our origins are currently mired in a ghetto of ignorance—that most creationists believe because they are slaves to dogma. ID is an attempt to provide an intellectually respectable framework within which god-belief can flourish without doing the equivalent of a lobotomy on its proponents, and at least that goal is admirable. It fails because they face the intractable problem of inventing evidence out of a vacuum, and because its leaders aren't very bright. They are cruising along on the brute-force propellant of ideology rather than science, against the thrust of the evidence.


Coyne JA (2003) Gould and God. Nature 422:813-814.


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Comments:
's avatar #56212: Chris Clarke — 01/04  at  12:53 PM
I do not think we should antagonize the religious when it is not warranted, though I think we should be willing to do so whenever it is.

And here I was just thinking I ought to get a new sig quote.

"I do not think we should antagonize the religious when it is not warranted, though I think we should be willing to do so whenever it is.”
-- Glen Davidson



#56215: — 01/04  at  12:58 PM
First off, I think PZ wrote an excellent post laying out his opinion on this issue.
Secondly, I’m appalled that he would mess up a blockquote in a comment.

56105: Andy Groves — 01/03 at 06:52 PM
I don't see a problem with scientists (or anyone else) having faith in things that science cannot examine. I don't do it myself, but I don't object to it in principle.


I think a lot of comments are putting too much emphasis on scientific solvable problems. Our lives are not run like that. Take Andy here. I’m sure this is how he starts his normal day:

He wakes up at the scientifically optimum time; he’s done experiments where he set the alarm for 5 minutes before work or class and 5 hours before so he can find the best time. He decides which maroon pants to wear because of experiments colleagues have done on the issue. Same with the paisley shirt. He determined scientifically that waffles are the best Wednesday breakfast as opposed to pancakes…

My point is that a lot of our decisions in our lives aren’t scientific. Faith is just one more thing that can coexist with science because it’s in another part of our lives. Life is like a box of chocolates, it has a lot of compartments. ;)



#56221: — 01/04  at  01:23 PM
Rennie might place PZ and Dawkins in the same sentence, but they do not in fact make the same sorts of comments about religion. At least sometimes Dawkins rather oversteps the bounds of proper claims about religion, calling religion a "virus", and asking if religion is the root of all evil (I think his answer is no, but the suggestion is that it is the root of many of the evils which sociologists and psychologists would typically ascribe to more secular causation). I don't see PZ using as immoderate language as Dawkins uses, so one might ask why.

PZ might tell us, of course, but I think that on this side of the Atlantic there is some reason to speak more cautiously about religion. I do agree with Seth Gordon, that there will always be a villain, and I think that Dawkins is providing us the service of being said villain, while being conveniently (for us) British. So he acts as the outlier (bad cop, in a way), so that other people may sound more moderate, as indeed I believe PZ Myers does. The creationists are going to use someone's quotes to claim that evolution exists simply to do away with religion (not Dawkins' claim in the least, but it typically ends up that way after the ID/creationist twisting), and it hardly matters that they can use Dawkins instead of Madalyn Murray O'Hair.

PZ can say whatever he wants based on nothing other than his own understanding of the matter. I think, though, that he is one of the Americans who permits other scientists and educators to sound more moderate in comparison with him, even as he sounds less militant than does Dawkins.

Btw, I think Rennie was setting up something of a strawman, at least when it comes to PZ. I've never seen where PZ suggested that science "is automatically derisive of religion" either intentionally or unintentionally (the fact that ID/creationists misconstrue statements, sometimes apparently wilfully, should not be a constraint on what scientists say). He quite properly notices that science shoots down virtually all non-trivial religiously derived claims about the world, but of course he knows that some religions make no, or virtually no, claims about the world. It is not unreasonable to ask if the latter religions are saying anything at all within the realm of sense, however.

The problem that religion has with science is that the latter began to rise at least partly because religion had begun to fall under the weight of critical thought--and the desire to have evidence to back up all claims. Christians, Jews, and Muslims all had competing claims, and at least some Xians sought to enlist evidence in favor of their own religion. This did not work too well for that purpose, but it was found that increasingly we were able to understand the world by actually considering the evidence apart from religion.

The Age of Exploration increased the pressure on religion, for many good moral religious people were found to have beliefs which were different from Xianity's beliefs, yet no independent evidence was going to show Buddhism to be wrong, and Xianity to be right. Many Xians wanted, and many presently do want, independent evidence confirming their beliefs.

It is an affront to many Xians to tell them the lie that science is compatible with their own religious beliefs. This should not be done on the principle that we ought not to lie to folk, "even if they are ID/creationist". Otoh, I would not want all evolutionists to be in the mold of Myers and Dawkins. It is well that many Xians can and do offer an alternative path to rejecting God for those who wish to be honest about science. I don't see the point for myself, but I primarily wish for science to do well in this society, with little concern for "how well" religion does.

All that having been said, I am not one who thinks it necessary, nor particularly helpful to the project of science, to often point out the consequences for religion that science brings to a society. Science erodes religion? Fine, let religion erode. The purpose of science includes learning and discovering methods of dealing with the evidence, it is not its purpose to come to one conclusion rather than another, even about religion. The positive (in the non-moral sense) practice of science is our concern. Confronting religion when it is not necessary to do so suggests to the suspicious that evolution might exist for reasons other than the practice of science.

Confrontation of religion by the bulk of scientists would almost certainly be damaging to science teaching, then. Sensible observations that science erodes religion both in its skepticism of "unproven claims" and in its tendency to displace the myths and metaphysics or religion is a bit of honesty, which should not be censored, not even self-censored. It grants the proper respect to the fears of many religious folk, presents a straightforward choice to them, and it rightfully implies that religion is not going to be supported by science in any foreseeable developments. But even such observations have their place and time, and hardly should eclipse the positive case for science.

Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/b8ykm



#56233: — 01/04  at  02:17 PM
'Science, properly practiced, has nothing to say about the whys and "ultimate" causes of Nature. '

This is simply bullshit. It is parrotted over and over again. Science has much to say about the why's and to presume religion has something to say about it at all is another load of bullshit.

How can believing in Santa Claus be a 'why' to how your presents appear except for the most infantile?

If you think science doesn't have the answers fine, it doesn't on all fronts, but don't pretend religion offers any either.



#56234: Elf M. Sternberg — 01/04  at  02:17 PM
Great White Wonder:

If they're "obvious" how does that make them non-useful? Dawkins is useful precisely because he's right, and obviously so.

Dkon:

Religions like the kind PZ and Dawkins and Dennett go after have naturalistic consequences: they describe the physical world in a certain way. When the real world doesn't match up with their expectations, what do you want them to do? Accept it? Most of them don't, and some of them are violent about it.



#56236: — 01/04  at  02:20 PM
"You are confusing expedient decisions with moral ones. I think you should clarify your terms, because what it seems to me that you are asserting is that there are no moral decisions at all, only expedient ones, and the goal is to find decisions which are the most expedient. If I read you wrong, please let me know."

I think most of what is generally conceded as moral in nature really has no impact on morality at all. Almost the entire set of sexual morality collapses once you remove the evil sky daddy and his insane followers. The only question I see in the whole of human sexuality which has any moral impact at all is the issue of consent. When is the most or least desireable time to have a child, who to have one with, who to have sex with in the absence of procreational intent, these issues are either clearcut science (risks of STDs, etc) or trivialities of personal taste (this gentleman prefers blonde gentlemen).

But continuing the issue of sexual moralities, the only real moral issue I see is consent (an issue which, I will note, is quite absent in the Bible). Sex is only, in my view, morally permissable when all parties give knowing consent. Why is this? Why, observation has shown that human misery tends to have deleterious effects on people and being raped would, to put it mildly, likely invoke such misery. Therefore it stands to reason that the moral course tends to limit and prevent human misery. Science is not only more than able to tell us how to do that, but has made tremendous inroads towards doing so on a broad front.

I don't think that my consent rubric could be called expedient (except insofar as one is trying to avoid prosecution and minimize human suffering). But it is true that I see most "moral" issues as having no moral content whatsoever.



#56269: — 01/04  at  03:42 PM
I should note before someone mocks me for it that obviously I should have typed "Spencer" rather than "Spengler." I've had the name Spengler on the brain because of something I've been reading recently.

ctw:
"...finding fault with the tone..."
Well, sure. Nietzsche comments somewhere about disagreeing with an opinion because of the tone with which it is expressed rather than the substance. Dawkins-style atheism, with its gleeful derision of all religion, reads to me like a bad Ayn Rand novel (isn't that redundant?) with Richard Dawkins as Howard Roark. But I disagree with the substance too.



#56278: — 01/04  at  04:08 PM
Those of you who were fans of Babylon 5 will undoubtedly remember "Mr Morden", the sinister agent of the Shadows. His task was to sidle up to various characters and ask them, "What do you want?" I would put the same question to Professors Dawkins and Myers.

Both men are devastating critics of organized religion. Both men are formidable advocates for atheism. But to what end?

Like many other agnostics and atheists, I agree with most of what they write, I'm heartened to read the case against the excesses of religious belief put so eloquently and I applaud the courage and determination with which they do it. But isn't that just preaching to the choir?

While it goes without saying that they should not be censored, nor should they censor themselves, the question is raised as to whether their words are matched to their purpose. Is what they write likely to sway those whose beliefs need to be modified if the rising tide of religious bigotry is to be turned back?

The great faiths of the world are not monolithic structures. They encompass a range of views of which the extreme right wings are the real danger. Isolate the extremists from the main body of the church and you will have gone a long way towards an achievable goal.

Certainly, tarring all believers with the brush of fundamentalism will not further any strategy of 'divide and conquer'. Lumping the good together with the bad will only force them to unite against a common threat. And there are many good people out there. Offending them or even making enemies of them unnecessarily, rather than helping them cultivate tolerance and moderation, is tactically inept, to say the least.

I simply do not believe there is any realistic prospect of significant numbers of believers being persuaded to moderate or give up their faiths in the short or medium term. Richard Dawkins has called religion a virus of the mind but perhaps a better analogy would be symbiote. Would the religious "meme" have survived and flourished along with its host if both had not found the relationship beneficial? Can something so deeply rooted in human culture and consciousness be eradicated or only managed?

Which brings us back to the question, "What do you want?"



's avatar #56297: PZ Myers — 01/04  at  05:09 PM
That "religion" is rooted in consciousness is lazy thinking...of course it isn't. Are those of us who lack religion unconscious?

It is embedded in culture, and it's that incestuous re-inoculation of every generation with the tradition, all the social pressure and threats of hellfire and promises of a heavenly candyland made to impressionable children that keeps it going. To argue that because something is it must be beneficial is simply the naturalistic fallacy and panselectionism all tangled together. Even under adaptationism, it could be that religion represents a local optimum that keeps us trapped far from a more global optimum.

What do I want?

1. Better education for everybody, free of the meddlesome and wrong interference of religious nitwits. A thoroughly secular education for all; let the religious poison their own kids' minds on evenings and weekends, but at least give the poor kids a fighting chance.

2. A widespread recognition that religion is a poor guide to the real world. Government and education should be completely secular -- I want those good Christians to gasp in disgust when some vote-pandering demagogue trivializes the metaphysical meaning of their religion by using it in campaign literature. Let people be elected on the basis of what they'll do in the real world, not on which brand of Jesus™ they worship.

Basically, let's see religion recognized as a hobby with no special authority, neither praised nor condemned, except in those pathological cases of excessive religiosity that nowadays earn the esteem of every rednecked cracker and rube in the country.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#56298: — 01/04  at  05:12 PM
PZ Myers:
"And your arm won't grow back."
Thank you Professor. That's very witty, especially as it plays on the perils of taking something literally that was written to be taken figuratively.

I wouldn't have even seen this and the previous post except that you chose to include them in your science only feed, which is what I subscribed to after I'd had my fill of your slams at religion generally. (The science posts are very fine and interesting indeed. Thank you very much.)

I'm glad you think there are some "good bits" in the Bible. Your comments in this area strike me as a little schizoid; you'll write very ferocious Dawkinsesque things about religion and then pull back and qualify them a bit, as if you didn't quite mean what you plainly meant to say. It somewhat reminds me of how Rush Limbaugh takes a stance as the great smasher of liberalism and then pulls back and describes himself as just a lovable fuzzball who means no harm to anyone, when obviously he does mean harm.

One of the best of the "good bits" is that phrase about "an eye for an eye." Something that the Israelite judges evidently never, ever took literally, despite what the Saudi Arabian religious authorities and their ilk assert. It was a radical breakthrough in justice at a time when punishments were monstrous, particularly when they involved offenses by a member of the lower classes against a member of the ruling elite. This and other radical critiques of business as usual are the most precious part of the various religious traditions. Dawkins would have us throw out the baby with the bathwater.



#56305: Jonathan Bartlett — 01/04  at  05:30 PM
"Better education for everybody, free of the meddlesome and wrong interference of religious nitwits. A thoroughly secular education for all; let the religious poison their own kids' minds on evenings and weekends, but at least give the poor kids a fighting chance."

So you want to force all children to be indoctrinated into your own religious outlook?



's avatar #56307: Chris Clarke — 01/04  at  05:36 PM
So you want to force all children to be indoctrinated into your own religious outlook?

We have always been at war with Eastasia.

"I do not think we should antagonize the religious when it is not warranted, though I think we should be willing to do so whenever it is.”
-- Glen Davidson



#56311: — 01/04  at  06:23 PM
I cannot agree that religion is not 'rooted in consciousness.'

It is a cultural reaction to something, after all. I think (but cannot prove) that the main part of that something is the feeling of immanence that we all have at times.

My guess is that this feeling is a byblow of the evolution of higher mental function. Whether it has any desirable evolutionary purpose is unclear. Conceivably it is a part of 'creativity.'

That we would react to our feelings of immanence with something like religion/ritual/fear seems also to be 'natural,' by which I mean arising out of our evolutionary history.

I have been reading Carroll's 'Endless Forms Most Beautiful' (thanks for suggestion, professor) and am inclined as a result to describe the varieties of religious experience as analogues of the varieties of arthropod limbs.

Only arthropod limbs are almost always more useful than not, while religion is almost always worse than useless. (Taken broadly. Despite the example of Savonarola, adhering to the dominant group's religion probably has a high survival value; although adhering to a minor sect can be fatal, as the Bahais in Iran are learning.)

I cannot see how education, even a lot of it, will trump the reaction to feelings of immanence.

We have to learn, therefore, how to manage the hateful directions our religious impulses take.

Of course, Professor Myers is right, we'd be better off recognizing that religion is bad for us and giving it up, and some few of us do that; but as a general rule, ain't gonna happen.



#56313: Jim Lippard — 01/04  at  06:41 PM
Why is it that so many people write or speak as though everyone who advocates a position (say, that science is the best tool available for gaining knowledge of the world) should all take the same approach in presenting their view, for fear of discrediting others who take that view?

I don't agree with everything Dawkins says, and Dawkins' approach may be "unproductive" in some contexts, but the world is a richer and more entertaining place with him and his approach in it. The worry about an approach discrediting a position is resolved by having other approaches advocate the position (more and better speech), not by everyone taking the same line.



#56318: — 01/04  at  07:31 PM
So you want to force all children to be indoctrinated into your own religious outlook?


So bald is a hairstyle now? Not collecting stamps is a hobby?



#56340: coturnix — 01/04  at  09:17 PM
I really like the punchline of this post. I think it applies to atheism, too. And every Pharynguloid should LOVE the hat in the picture.



#56602: — 01/06  at  08:22 AM

PZ Myers wrote:

That "religion" is rooted in consciousness is lazy thinking...of course it isn't. Are those of us who lack religion unconscious?

It is embedded in culture, and it's that incestuous re-inoculation of every generation with the tradition, all the social pressure and threats of hellfire and promises of a heavenly candyland made to impressionable children that keeps it going.


What is human culture other than an expression of the thoughts, needs or interests of its constituents? For religion to have played so prominent a role in our cultural life it is reasonable to infer that it meets needs that are rooted deep in the individual human psyche.

I agree with both you and Dawkins that the way children are indoctrinated with a particular faith borders on abuse. But that does not undermine the argument that religions have survived - and thrived - for so long because they appeal to a fundamental need in all of us.

Simply pointing out the contradictions and fallacies of the various faiths has little effect. Calling the followers of those faiths delusional or worse might be personally satisfying but, in the end, it might do more harm than good.


To argue that because something is it must be beneficial is simply the naturalistic fallacy and panselectionism all tangled together. Even under adaptationism, it could be that religion represents a local optimum that keeps us trapped far from a more global optimum.


As I understand the naturalistic fallacy it asserts that you cannot infer 'ought' from 'is'. I was not arguing that because religion exists it must be right or good in some way, only that its survival in human culture suggests that its effect is, at the worst, neutral or, more likely, advantageous in terms of human survival.


What do I want?

1. Better education for everybody, free of the meddlesome and wrong interference of religious nitwits. A thoroughly secular education for all; let the religious poison their own kids' minds on evenings and weekends, but at least give the poor kids a fighting chance.

2. A widespread recognition that religion is a poor guide to the real world. Government and education should be completely secular -- I want those good Christians to gasp in disgust when some vote-pandering demagogue trivializes the metaphysical meaning of their religion by using it in campaign literature. Let people be elected on the basis of what they'll do in the real world, not on which brand of Jesus™ they worship.

Basically, let's see religion recognized as a hobby with no special authority, neither praised nor condemned, except in those pathological cases of excessive religiosity that nowadays earn the esteem of every rednecked cracker and rube in the country.


I agree entirely.

My only caveat is that if religion has survived because it meets deep-seated human needs then any campaign to eradicate it is likely to have about as much success as the "war on drugs". As with any addiction, unless you can subdue the craving, your only alternatives are to allow the supply of the usual "fix" or replace it with something better.

As I see it, the only difference between us is not over the objective but the tactics.

For its adherents, religion is a source of strength, comfort and security in the face of a universe that is "pitilessly indifferent" to our survival. Is calling them "delusional" or "idiots" really likely to change their minds?



#56798: — 01/07  at  03:41 AM
Ian H Spedding wrote:
My only caveat is that if religion has survived because it meets deep-seated human needs then any campaign to eradicate it is likely to have about as much success as the "war on drugs". As with any addiction, unless you can subdue the craving, your only alternatives are to allow the supply of the usual "fix" or replace it with something better.
This is actually an excellent point. Where are all the "mad" scientists these days? Can't even one genius make it his mission in life to find a cure for religion? Who's even doing any research on this?



Trackback: Carnival of the Godless #31 Tracked on: Buridan's Ass (66.235.212.128) at 2006 01 08 07:42:05
Welcome to the 31st edition of the Carnival of the Godless. We have a great selection of godless writings on tap for you, from the analytic to the satirical to the poetic. The variety of entries is truly rich....



#57178: — 01/10  at  08:49 AM
Personal revelation or dogma are not intrinsically untrue. Subjective experience can be valid for the individual, and former conclusions preserved to the present also have a good chance of working. I have in mind cases such as evening rush hour on the freeway being a bitch (if I haven't driven it for five years - that's dogma) and giving me a monster headache all evening (that's personal revelation).

But I want to argue with some of what Glen D said. Firstly, it's in some doubt that the books of the bible are, in fact, individual works. Some look like compendiums in themselves. And also, who cares? If it's history, who gives a damn? This is the twenty-first century and we all have cell phones and MP3 players. I don't even give a damn about that Shakespeare guy. Seriously - old isn't always good, old isn't always relevant. Someone goes crazy in an old book or a play and he gets a soliloquy. Today we can give him Prozac and anger management training.



#57656: — 01/12  at  09:32 PM
Why do you think I can't go to church? It's because I'm sitting there with a demanding and hair-trigger critical faculty, thinking "baloney!" at almost every platitude from the preacher, struggling against the urge to stand up and shout "Show me the evidence!" at the pulpit.

Snort. Why doesn't PZ Myers use any of that "critical faculty" when he comes across a totally bogus study (by Gregory Paul) that confirms his pre-existing prejudices against religion?



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