Pharyngula

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Saturday, March 26, 2005

In which I lose patience with these drooling gomers

World Wide Rant is having a good time mocking the anti-science fool at Wizbang. We need more of that.

You know, creationists who have almost no education in the relevant fields (such as, for instance, being proud of having taken a science class in 9th grade from which the only thing they learned is that science is always wrong) are perfectly comfortable with accusing virtually every biologist in the world of being incompetent, of knowing nothing, of fraud, of practicing a religion rather than science, etc., etc., etc. It's kind of appalling, actually; most of us would be embarrassed if we were caught lecturing crazily on some subject of which we know nothing by someone who had dedicated years of their life to studying that subject. But not creationists.

At the same time, you will find few people who are more touchy about the opinions of others than these same pontificating phonies. These arrogant pissants are egregious idiots who respond to the obvious question that leaps into everybody's mind when they first encounter them (i.e., "How can anyone be this stupid?") with indignation. They are the first to whine about "namecalling" and accuse anyone who opposes them vigorously of being "juvenile".

Here's how the conversation usually goes:

"Scientists don't know anything about speciation!"

"That's a stupid thing to say. Of course we do. Here's a long list of citations."

"You aren't allowed to call me stupid. I'm not stupid. You're stupid, you oozer." <commence prolonged temper tantrum>

This doesn't happen only at wingnut sites, of course—it goes on often enough here, too. Right now we've got a creationist troll named Phillip Rayment in the comments trying to defend biblical chronology and young earth creationism.

He's an arrogant moron. The bible is not an accurate historical source.

I know what some people are thinking: just don't call them "stupid" or a "moron", it distracts from the scientific argument. Of course it does; but one thing I've learned over the years is that this is not a scientific debate. The scientific part was settled a century ago, and evolution won, hands down. There is absolutely no legitimate, intelligent argument against evolutionary theory right now. This is not to say that we know everything or that the theory is complete or that we expect no major revisions; it means that evolution in a broad sense is an inarguable fact, and what we need to know now are details and mechanisms. The earth is billions of years old, species are all related to one another, and there has been a complex and ongoing pattern of change over the course of all of that time. All of that has been supported by multiple interlocking lines of evidence uncovered by the work of thousands of people, rechecked and verified by thousands more. That's just not going to be seriously challenged by anyone sensible, let alone some ranting guy who took a general science course in high school.

The big picture is done. The ships have sailed, they've discovered the coastline of the New World, they've established a few thriving colonies—and there's a huge, exciting continent to explore. Meanwhile, we have a few lunatics in the Old World who have clamped their eyelids shut and are screaming that they can't see it.

So what's the argument about? Not science, that's for sure. The opponents of evolution don't know any. They are effective political agents who are attacking the enterprise of science without addressing the scientific issues seriously. They have been relying on their opponent's hesitation or aloofness to escape criticism of their competence or ignorance. They shout with authority when they possess none.

You know what? It's time to stop that.

When someone lies, and tells you that increasing numbers of scientists are opposing the evolutionary 'paradigm', shoot them down, but also be blunt: call 'em a liar. Don't let them get away with pretending this is an honest debate between sincere opponents. It's an argument with a shameless liar.

When they parade their ignorance and try to claim that scientists have never discovered any transitional fossils, hand them a list, and make it clear to everyone that they are stupid. They are ignorant. Don't let them skip over it and move on to yet another issue that they will misrepresent: stop everything cold at that point and hammer on the fact that this person is not competent, is not informed, is unaware of the basic facts that he is railing against.

Seriously. If you went to a doctor, and he didn't know which end of the stethoscope to stick in his ears, would you let him go on to do open-heart surgery on you? Would you continue to call him "doctor", or should you leave the quack's office and look for someone who knows what they are doing? Why do we allow pseudoscientists and creationists to babble on, moving on from one lie to one distortion to one outright crazy assertion to another?

Slap 'em down. Anyone who tries to tell you that the world is 6000 years old or that evolutionary biology is a failure is an idiot. They don't deserve your patience.


Trackback url: http://pharyngula.org/index/trackback/2084/x94OT7eR/

Comments:
's avatar #19882: Ben — 03/26  at  10:31 AM
Back off. This one's mine.

"The great trouble is that the preachers get the children from six to seven years of age and then it is almost impossible to do anything with them." --Thomas Edison.



#19886: QrazyQat — 03/26  at  11:03 AM
FDugby obver at Hulabaloo had a recent post that made sense (his posts pretty much always do). Given the anti-science attitudes of the modern GOP, and in, for instance, the Schiavo case, you should think real hard before letting a Republican near your health care. You ever look at those credentials on the wall in the doctor's office? Well, maybe you should be asking what party the doctor supports too. Unless you don't mind being treated with voodoo.



#19887: — 03/26  at  11:16 AM
It is a damn shame you can't fucking read.

You call me a creationist but I argue against that theory too!

You are truly a clueless twit.



#19888: Hank Fox — 03/26  at  11:31 AM
Well said, PZ.

I'm in ...

Absolute.

Total.

Agreement.

Every time we let a creationist lie go free, we become partly to blame for the destruction of reason. Every creationist lie we stop, we make the world a little bit better place ... for things like science, medicine, social justice, education, and even good government.



#19891: — 03/26  at  12:14 PM
THANK YOU! I've been saying this for years. Polite has no place in this argument with the willfully ignorant.



#19892: — 03/26  at  12:16 PM
So what does one do with idiots who dismiss any and all articles from Talkorigins because "that site is biased, anti-religious"?

Of course it's biased in favor of science! Science is the stuff with the evidence behind it. Religion has, what, a book that must be right because it says it's right? *sigh*



's avatar #19896: PZ Myers — 03/26  at  01:05 PM
Paul: Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.

You're an evolution-denier. An anti-science crank. A pseudo-scientific nutjob. A guy who thinks his misunderstood 'training' in 9th grade qualifies him to dismiss the work of real scientists.

You are an idiot, a moron, a fool, a fraud, a bullshit artist. You are a lying phony.

So when I lump you in with those other, similar kooks who call themselves creationists, I'm being kind.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



's avatar #19897: PZ Myers — 03/26  at  01:07 PM
Ben, go get him.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#19898: DarkSyde — 03/26  at  01:11 PM
You forgot brattish, embaressing, immature, and a laughing stock, PZ. Did you get liar? Oh yeah.



Trackback: Pop Quiz Tracked on: The World Wide Rant - v3.0 (63.247.140.66) at 2005 03 26 12:09:17
Paul, from Wizbang, on the subject of evolutionary science is: (a) a complete fucking retard idiot beyond comprehension or (b) see (a). Answers in the comments, please. Update: Upon further reflection, I realize that the use of the term "retard"...



Trackback: Evolution Debate Tracked on: Unscrewing The Inscrutable (66.197.215.85) at 2005 03 26 13:08:45
Update: PZ at Pharyngula and Andy at The World Wide Rant join in on the beating of Paul's lifeless corpse. Update: Mojo Wire has a similar experience with with Paul. Do decent conservatives feel OK about folks like Paul portraying...



#19899: Burt Humburg — 03/26  at  01:16 PM
When I encounter someone who talks like that, I perform a rapid assessment: is the person simply ignorant and deserving of my patience or are they willfully misrepresenting the science involved.

Then, I assess who is listening to the argument. If it's between me and a person who is willfully misrepresenting the science, then I call a duck a duck.

But if I am on forums like these where lots of people listen, trying to gain information but who don't want to make a decision about who is right, then I call a duck a duck but I use softer language. Instead of saying, "You're full of shit," I might say, "Your understanding of geology is quite singular."

The bigger point being, when you debate creationists, you aren't trying to convince the creationists. You're trying to convince the people who might possibly be persuaded by the creationists. Appearing to be someone who is not reasonable doesn't help the cause, yet as PZ alludes, there is a role for establishing with clarity the fact that the unreasonable and willfully ignorant creationist should not be given credibility.

Debating creationists is a game. You can't say, "Call them all idiots," because that can sometimes not help the cause. Yet you have to take steps to convince people that the willfully ignorant should not be believed. Like I said, it's a game.

BCH



#19902: Orac — 03/26  at  01:31 PM
Paul truly is an embarrassment. The only thing I can't figure out is why he keeps posting such tripe, only to have his ass handed to him by people who actually know what they're talking about...

--
Orac “A statement of fact cannot be insolent.”
http://oracknows.blogspot.com



's avatar #19903: PZ Myers — 03/26  at  01:39 PM
Yes, Burt. There are many good-hearted, sincere, honest people who don't know much about biology; they aren't idiots. There is nothing wrong with not knowing something about a discipline that doesn't directly affect your life day-by-day.

Our problem is the people, like the clowns at the Discovery Institute or Ken Ham or Jonathan Sarfati and Phil Johnson and any of a horde of loud-mouthed liars, who get up in front of audiences and declare with false authority that biology is wrong. They are the idiots whose pretenses we must puncture.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#19904: — 03/26  at  01:45 PM
Amen, PZ!
Oh, rats, I shouldn't have said "amen", now somebody is going to accuse evolution of being a religion. In the meantime, and not to change the subject, I stumbled across this interesting article on Zebrafish Blood Diseases. If only someone who knew anything about zebrafish could explain the evolutionary implications!
Back to the subject at hand. Creationists all too often take advantage of the rules of reasoned debate to foist a lot of nonsense off on unsuspecting people. We have to start calling them on it. A stupid idea is a stupid idea.



#19905: — 03/26  at  01:46 PM
The namecalling shouldn't apply to everyone ignorant enough to argue creationism.
I am reminded of a "gentle"man with whom I used to work who had been attending seminary school. He described to me his hypothesis-in-the-works about dinosaurs.
"You see", he lecftured me, "I believe that, since in Biblical times people like Abraham lived to be really old, and since lizards never stop growing until they die, obviously lizards lived much longer back then and became really big."
He was really disappointed when I casually explained to him that dinosaurs were notreally lizards.
But at least it was a civil conversation...and humorous.



's avatar #19906: Stephen Stralka — 03/26  at  01:52 PM
My one concern is that when you get testy with the creationists, much as they deserve it, they'll try to turn it around and use it as evidence for their claims about evolution being poorly supported, impossible to prove, more religion than science -- you know the drill. They start saying things like, "See? When you challenge them on their beliefs, the Darwinists just resort to childish ranting and name-calling!"

Of course the reason Darwinists real scientists get annoyed is that they get tired of having to shoot down the same old creationist nonsense over and over again, but the anti-evolution crowd is banking on the public's general ignorance of science to obscure this fact. I mean, I fully agree that "ignorant zealot," for instance, is a phrase that can be applied to the creationists as an accurate description, not a term of abuse, but you know they're going to try to use it against you.

There's not a lot you can do about the ignorant zealots, of course, but you don't want to limit your chances of reaching those who are merely ignorant.



#19909: — 03/26  at  02:02 PM
Diversity is a good thing. I don't have a bone to pick with creationists. It's their free speech right to hold and disseminate whatever misinformation they wish.

It's the fault of the single-thought, uncritical minded receivers of that information if they're unable to get to the truth and reason.

Am I right with that? I wonder. I mean, I severely dislike the state of ignorance modern society is in. The brain-dead herd is forcefully controlled by means of all sorts of advertising and propaganda. They're all glorious members of Orwell's 1984 regime.

Could I interest any of you in a Gold subscription to my Divine Faith Generator?

People using people. Slave control.



#19911: Mad House Madman — 03/26  at  02:22 PM
You're sincere, sarcastic and plain mean. In other words, your're becomeing one of my favorite sites, very very quickly.

Great job, absolutely true. wise advice.

Next time I pick up my stethescope I'll make sure to orient myself first though.



#19912: — 03/26  at  02:22 PM
Diversity is a good thing.


When it leads us further from untruths and into more substantive knowledge, yes. No point in keeping b.s. around for diversity's sake, though. It's not an end in itself.

And PZ, in the presumably unlikely event you get bored with teaching science, that there post indicates you'd do a damn fine job at teaching argument in an English class. Impressive . . .



#19913: — 03/26  at  02:25 PM
Stephen wrote:
"Of course the reason Darwinists real scientists get annoyed is that they get tired of having to shoot down the same old creationist nonsense over and over again"
Well, yes. If I have to deal with one more creationist telling me that Duane Gish proved that australopithicines were really just apes my head will explode. Ditto for, say criticisms of radiometric dating. These people come up with criticisms that were thought of, and researched, a long time ago. In the case of radiometric dating there are several journals devoted to researching issues (practical and methodological) connected with these procedures. But we are suppoesed to be awed, by the smartness of some one regurgitating the hundreth iteration of the original stupid idea. Sad thing is most of these people don't realize how old and how often these lame criticisms have been repeated and disproven. Sorry for the rant.



#19915: — 03/26  at  02:44 PM
what's with the use of the new/old world metaphor? I thought we off-loaded the lunatic christian fringe to the new world via the mayfair in the early 1600s. sorry guys. ;)



#19916: The Commissar — 03/26  at  02:44 PM
What about the old "if you can't re-creats an experiment in laboratory setting, it isn't the scientific method" argument.

Can you suggest a reference, or if you like, just address in my comments thread.



#19917: The Commissar — 03/26  at  02:52 PM
FYI,

After a 100-comment thread, I dim-wittedly realized Paul's game. He will NOT openly embrace Creationism. He will declare "Evolutionary Theory is full of MAJOR HOLES." He explicitly stated that he didnt believe God created life on Earth. (I think he was lying on that belief, but can't prove it.)

But his tactic, his mission, is to keep trying to distort the filling in of evolutionary theory's details,as "MAJOR HOLES". He's a stalking-horse, an apologist for the Creationists, playing a slightly subtler role. He loudly throws up the dust and the irrelevancies from his platform, and then lets the admitted Creationists take it from there.

Thanks, Burt Humbug, for your insight & advice. It applies to Paul and his ilk in spades.



#19918: — 03/26  at  02:56 PM
Hank said,
Every creationist lie we stop, we make the world a little bit better place ... for things like science, medicine, social justice, education, and even good government.
Ironically, it would even make it the world a better place for religion.

Why are the fundies holding on to something that is destined to crash and burn?

Personally, I am able to have great respect for the God-fearing man who understands the limitations (relevancy?) of religion in these times of would-be enlightenment.

Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

-Jerry Garcia



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