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Friday, February 18, 2005

It's more than just math

Brad DeLong asks a question that frets me, too:

For those who have difficulty learning to speak the language that is mathematics like a native, how to teach them science in a world where it is a fact that the underlying bones of reality are profoundly mathematical--for that is the conclusion Eugen Wigner's "The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences" leads us to? Call this the "Friends of Wigner" problem.

Stated in another way, we could call it the Calvin problem:

image

I think the problem is more than just difficulty with mathematics. Look at the creationist's confusion I wrote about yesterday—it wasn't a failure of mathematics that lead to his foolish errors, unless you think it was an inability to count. Other disciplines have their own problems: historians have students who want history to be just the memorization of events that actually happened, rather than a difficult exercise in thinking and learning and evaluating. When I was attending the meetings to discuss the Minnesota state science standards a while back, that was the theme I kept hearing when the history standards came up: that rote memorization of dates and dogma is not history.

The real problem isn't math, it's epistemology. What we want from our students is that they understand how they know what they know. In the sciences, that often distills down into some properly applied mathematics and that common injunction on exams to "show your work." It's what we do in those peer-reviewed papers, which are all step-by-step explanations of how we got a particular answer. I suspect that one common thread among academics in all disciplines is that what we really like in a good paper is the logic and the story and the clever details that lead up to the conclusion, that what counts is the process.

The real problem is that so many people want the shortcut to the "right" answer (although students will change their tune when it's a matter of me going blind this weekend trying to decipher chicken scratches in blue books to give partial credit for applying the right method to a genetics problem, even if the final answer was off.) It's Bronowski's conflict between knowledge and certainty: most people prefer certainty, especially when knowledge might give them an answer they don't like. And they especially favor certainty when it requires nothing more than learning a single datum, rather than the work it takes to do a calculation or derivation or document a chain of evidence.

I don't know exactly what the answer is, but the root of it has to lie in teaching kids to enjoy figuring things out. One geeky personal example: I got introduced to model rocketry when I was in fifth grade, and I was a member of the model rocket club at my school up through junior high. I think, though, that I built precisely two rockets and launched them just once. The first time I'd watched these things, the instructor had handed me some gadget that I looked through and measured the angle to the rocket at the top of it's flight, and showed me how to calculate how far it went. That was it for me. Who cared about balsa wood and cardboard when there was geometry and trigonometry to do? I thought Calvin's problem was the fun part!

Our students aren't buying a finished product, they're getting a toolbox (with math at the heart of it) and instructions in how to use it. When they don't realize that central fact, that's when mutual disappointment occurs.


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Comments:
#16336: — 02/18  at  10:31 AM
Perhaps if you'd been working on building your own squid as a kid you'd have enjoyed both the mathematics and the actual project itself. You have to admit that tentacles are waay cool!

Anyway, thanks for a spot-on post. Getting past the "what's the answer" stage is what a real education is all about.



#16337: — 02/18  at  10:42 AM
A simple (ha, ha) answer is for students to spend more time on math, earlier, with elementary teachers who are not themselves averse to the subject.

My father used to teach me how to calculate fuel use, daily load tonnage and other wonderful things of this nature when I rode around in his truck as a youngster. Using math to solve real problems (including rocket flight patterns) makes a big difference in one's future perspective. I have never been a math genius, but am amazed at how many people in higher education administration are worse mathematicians.

Knowing how to add, also greatly reduces the chance of becoming a Republican.



#16341: — 02/18  at  11:30 AM
I agree that kids need to be using mathematics at a much earlier age.

While there may be some innate contribution towards mathematical ability (or tendancy to enjoy math stuffs), I always thought that one's ability to view the world as a mathematical construct is a mindset that can be acquired so as to become as natural as one's utilization of his/her lexicon.

However, I think that this is tough for a much of the children in grade school. It's a time when some kids are still struggling with reading, writing, and other highly prioritized skills.

In other words, many schools still do press "reading, writing, and arithmetic" - but, math tends to get stuck onto the end, almost as an afterthought.

Shouldn't mathematics be getting more attention in the early years?

Are there other lessons that can afford to be neglected/removed (besides religion class, of course)?

Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

-Jerry Garcia



#16342: — 02/18  at  11:44 AM
Shouldn’t mathematics be getting more attention in the early years?

Are there other lessons that can afford to be neglected/removed (besides religion class, of course)?


Actually, there's one class that should be emphasized early on, namely foreign languages, whose teaching is the most efficient when it begins in first grade.

Our students aren’t buying a finished product, they’re getting a toolbox (with math at the heart of it) and instructions in how to use it. When they don’t realize that central fact, that’s when mutual disappointment occurs.

I'm trying to imagine how rote memorization works in mathematics... in fact, that what learning math is about up to and including about the first year of university. On the other hand, if you take it to the absurd level that is present in middle-school history, you get a test in abstract algebra with questions like, "State the First Ring Isomorphism Theorem" and "What is an Ideal?".



's avatar #16343: PZ Myers — 02/18  at  11:52 AM
But that's exactly it: you can't reduce math to rote memorization, and that's one reason it's disliked.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#16347: — 02/18  at  12:11 PM
On the contrary: if you look at pre-college mathematics, it is not quite rote memorization, but fairly close to that. In high school calculus, for example, you get the integration formulas and then are asked to integrate three functions and find two areas under curves. It is only when you get to advanced calculus that you start seeing questions like, "Prove that whenever a function from R to R is continuous, the image of a closed interval is a closed interval."



#16349: DarkSyde — 02/18  at  12:21 PM
It's mostly from my experience a purely American problem with mathematics. I taught a few undergrad calculus and precal courses in my young wild, care free student days (Ahh yes, so brutally poor but swimming in coeds). And the American students just got their heads handed to them by foriegn students when it came to mathematics. It was downright embaressing to see a girl from India who was majoring in polysci, who could bare speak english, walk right over honors students from a big, rich Dallas High school who were planning on a career in finance. I mean the foriegenrs would just leave them in the dust. It was like having two different classes in the same room, one from a local middle school representing the seventh grade (Not just in scholastic performance, but often in immature behavior as well), and the other by comparison from an MIT sophmore honors group.

I would occasionally have kids in precal or even calculus that when you asked them something like"OK, now what's 25 percent of twelve" they'd literally stare at you blankly wating for you to tell them "three".



's avatar #16352: Chris Clarke — 02/18  at  12:31 PM
It figures that when PZ and I post on approximately the same subject in the same 24-hour period, he would produce a cogent and compelling analysis while I came up with an unconstructive political rant.

"I do not think we should antagonize the religious when it is not warranted, though I think we should be willing to do so whenever it is.”
-- Glen Davidson



#16354: DarkSyde — 02/18  at  12:40 PM
I think it's a good rant Chris. I was just thinking that somehow, intuitively, this whole anti-learning jig is connected to the Religious Right. But then I thought, maybe I've just taken recently to blaming too much of everything on those bozos.
But then I realize, nope ... it's definitely their fault; at least partially. There is something in that fundie mindset that rejects knowledge while prizing ignorance.



#16358: — 02/18  at  12:48 PM
The Indians and Chinese who come to study in the USA represent the cream of their countries' crops. A random villager from Uttar Pradesh would not be that good at mathematics. Furthermore, India puts a very strong emphasis on mathematics and science, so even if that girl struggled with math in high school, she'd be swamped with so much of it that she'd eventually be good at it. My own experience is that people struggle with mathematics everywhere.

The opposition to knowledge in the USA predates the rise of the religious right. The USA's social hierarchy puts businessmen at the top, on the grounds that they are people who succeed in society and compete well to benefit themselves first and everyone else by extension. Near the bottom are intellectuals, who are viewed as a clique disconnected from the real world. This has roots going back at least as far back as the westward expansion, which encouraged a culture that prizes common sense and gut feeling more than book learning.



#16360: — 02/18  at  12:50 PM
I do agree with the need for more math, and to teach math in a more compelling applied fashion rather than simply "work these problems with no context or motivation." But I think the issue goes deeper. If we want students to understand science, and anything else for that matter, we need to teach basic argumentation and critical thinking.

When I teach a basic informal logic/critical thinking course, I find that most undergrads don't even have a ready grasp of such super-basic concepts as the importance of considering the strongest possible potential objections to one's position. In pretty much all my intro philosophy courses, I find myself saddled with a roomful of students who have never constructed a genuine argument in their lives. Since science is at its heart the process of applying basic critical thinking criteria and high standards of evidence to arguments about the world, the natural consequence of having no critical thinking skills is having no capacity to understand science - and never mind ever learning how to DO science!

If we do not teach critical thinking to children as early as they are able to grasp the concepts, both as a separate subject and in the context of every subject, we utterly fail to educate them.

Scratch the conditional in the previous sentence: There is no "if." We DO fail to educate our children in this country. *sigh*



#16364: — 02/18  at  01:04 PM
Yes Alon, but businesspeople tend to be literate at regular mathematics up to basic algebra, although probably not higher levels. Many college students cant even function at the level of typical business people, let alone at the levels of engineers and physicists, et al.

Anti intellectualism certainly predates the current religious dogma against learning (I would note that in my part of the world, Mormons actually seem to encourage education, BTW) anything but he good book. A cultural perspective that connects intellectualism with people who dont get their hands dirty (city folk) is part of the problem. There is a segment of the rural population who doesnt see moving to the big city and working in an office as good. Lots of baggage gets thrown in and pretty soon they pretend that truck drivers need to know how to multiply.

As long as US society finds places for mathematical illiterates we will have this problem. After all, we can still beat everyone else up (until the day comes that we cant find enough engineers to make armaments, that is).

This all reminds me that I am about to engage in the annual budgeting ritual in which one of my 'superiors' is a person who has trouble with anything more complex than adding (requires calculator for that) so every adjustment will require trying to 'teach' someone math (percentages are a big problem), without actually telling her she is unqualified to do this part of the job. Wheeeee.



's avatar #16366: Chris Clarke — 02/18  at  01:09 PM
Thanks, Alon, for the reminder: I've been meaning to grab a copy of Hofstadter's Anti-Intellectualism In American Life and re-read it. It's been 30 years since I read it, and it seems more apropos now than it did then.

"I do not think we should antagonize the religious when it is not warranted, though I think we should be willing to do so whenever it is.”
-- Glen Davidson



#16367: — 02/18  at  01:12 PM
.... and thank you Chris. That one had fallen completely off my radar. No doubt worth finding a copy of as a reminder of how deeply ingrained anti intellectualism is in the US.



#16369: DarkSyde — 02/18  at  01:12 PM
This will undoubtably draw intense criticism, but frankly, students in America are act up more than they used to and they act up a hell of a lot more than foriegn students do. I taught High School math quite a bit as a sub when I was taking advanced math. It was a pretty decent job for a student gig, I'm not complaining. But I wouldn't be a math teacher in high school for 70K a year. The kids from about 8th grade on are just horrible. It only take two or three loud mouth problem brats per class to totally blow it for the rest of the kids. And there's not much you can do about it as a teacher. Send them to the principles office, they're back in ten minutes, send them again, they're back in ten minutes ... Send them too many times and the principle ends up calling you in and asking you what the hell your problem is.
They pretty much have to be there, in school, by law. To get them suspended they have to do soemthing really awful, threaten someone's life or get caught with drugs or weapons.

My experience was, that we do pretty good with kids through grade school. It's in Junior High that we start losing them. And that's exactly the same age where they figure out they can get away with all kinds of shit. I know this won't be a popular excuse, and it's more PC to blame the schools, the teachers, or the parents, but honestly, the kids know there's nothign that can be done about their behavior. If they want to be rotten and fail and mess up the lesson and screw it up for the other kids, there's not much you can do to shut them down. They know what you can and cannot do! It's like they're all little lawyers who have studied their new rights in the modern age of no paddling. They'll laugh at you and tell you to your face that they know there's nothing you can do, besides fail them and send them for detention. Odds are if they're a little trouble maker, they're already in detention anyway for doing the same thing in all their other classes. I've seen teachers get fed up and tell the problem kids not to even show up for class, or to just sit quietly and read, they don't have to do any work, just shut the f up. And those teachers will get in deep shit if they're caught doing that.

So, if the kid's parents are whacked or have some kind of issue, there is nothing that can change their behavior if that's how they choose to be. And like I say, it only takes one or two per class to throw you off. You get three or four in their among 25 kids and it's just mayhem and crowd crontrol.

When I was a kid, if you acted up, you got your but smacked by a wooden paddle in front of the entire class. It was humiliating and it hurt like hell. I think that's a pretty barbaraic solution, but I have to admit, it did at least work.



#16370: — 02/18  at  01:14 PM
and that was supposed to say 'pretend truck drivers dont need to know how to multiply. Speaking of illiteracy oops



#16372: — 02/18  at  01:17 PM
DS, been there done that, and you wont hear any criticism from this quarter.

The cheap babysitting model of education is not working.



#16374: DarkSyde — 02/18  at  01:25 PM
yeah DD you can tell in about ten minutes which kids are worried about their parent being unhappy and which students don't give a hoot or have parents that don't give a hoot. And you know ... it didn't really break down like you might think it would. You'd think that the poor kids, the kids from the bad neighborhoods, would have a higher ratio of broken families and bad stuff going on at home or in their lives, would be the hotbed. But it was pretty much universal. As a sub you travel all around the district to every kind of school. And the nice, rich, mostly white schools had pretty much the same problem in terms of just everyday goofing and problem students. At least that's what it seemed like to me.
I taught at a psychiatric treatement facility also, so I know there sre some cases where the kid is just plain rotten to the core from day one no matter what his folks do. But for the most part, it greatly depended on what kind of relationship the kid had with whoever was raising them.



's avatar #16375: Chris Clarke — 02/18  at  01:29 PM
No argument from me either, DS.

I always laugh when the home schooling issue comes up as if it's an alternative to public schools. All parents should "home school" their kids, regardless of whether the kid goes to a classroom all day. Without exception, the kids that drive my wife to tears are the ones whose parents don't give a flying cheney. Even deeply troubled kids don't faze her if the parents are in her corner.

(Sorry to tout my wife so much in the comments today. Maybe it's just aftereffects of Valentine's Day or something. But she's a damn hero as far as I'm concerned and the continual disregard with which she and her colleagues are treated by society makes me increasingly livid.)

"I do not think we should antagonize the religious when it is not warranted, though I think we should be willing to do so whenever it is.”
-- Glen Davidson



#16379: DarkSyde — 02/18  at  01:52 PM
I once did manage to scare the shit out of one of those little posers in texas. There's always that kid in the upper middle class neighborhood run-of-the-mill school who pretends he's a little rapper-ganster. It's really funny sometimes, they talk with the "Yo", "homie", "Wassup?" and all that stuff trying to sound cool. You can tell real kid gangsters. You see them in really bad school districts, they have an air ot total seriousness about them, but oddly, they're usually real quiet and don't cause any trouble, and they usually show up less than half the time anyway.
But those posers are hlarious. Anyway, in Texas damn near every body has the right to carry concealed fire arms. Lots of gun freaks. And I had a buddy who was a gun nut. he was in the army, had washed out of Ranger school and all that. He had like an old AR-15 with a full auto kit installed, a really nice sleek AR-180. And several pistals, one of which was one of those gigantic silver magnum 44 revolvers. It must have weighed thirty flippin pounds and it sounded like a Howitzer when it wnet off. So I'm at the gun range blasting away cuase that's what my buddy happened to want to do that night (Shooting guns is an activity in itself for some people, they make a night of it), and I see this kid milling around with what looks like his dad and a paintball gun (It was one of those auto mags shooting nitrogen BTW. Lot of money for a toy gun). And I mentioned to my friend who this little shit was.
And a few minutes later my buddy, who truly had no brains at all, claims he waited for the dad to wonder off, and then went over there loading his magnum with big fat talon like bullets, and told the kid if he acted up in my class he was going to 'take care of him', or so my buddy later claimed he did anyway. It was kinda scary for me, and pretty sick for him to do I thought.
But that kid never caused me any problems again, I never asked him about it. I wasn't going to say "Are you behaving because my psycho buddy told you he'd blow your brains out if you acted up anymore? Did my buddy really do that or was he just pulling my leg?"
I remember I was worried though for awhile that I was going to somehow get charged with some kind of 'reckless endangerment' or some crap and be on the news because of my pal, who thought the whole thing was funny shot his mouth off ... Guns really do turn people into idiots. Don't be smarting off to guys wearing suits in downtown Austin. There's a 1 in 5 or so chance they're packing some serious heat, legally carried, and just dying to check out what it will do to a human being.



#16381: — 02/18  at  02:04 PM
I totally forgot Anti-Intellectualism in American Life... As for beating up kids, in most countries it's illegal and yet people come out okay at the end of high school.

My point about businessmen is actually minor, the major point being that intellectuals are near the bottom of the hierarchy (I think artists are yet lower). Businessmen do a lot of book learning, but the American attitude to life comes not from business reality but from frontier reality. The subculture in the USA that attitudes such as anti-intellectualism rest on is not Fortune 500 but a 500 population town in Kansas. Hence, although businessmen are revered, business culture is not. Furthermore, businessmen learn mathematics with specific applications in mind, whereas students confronted with mathematics are usually taught that it's purely theoretical or that its applications are mostly in physics.

In logic this is even worse. Formal logic has very few applications beyond what everyone knows intuitively. Every idiot knows by induction that if all Wal-Mart products are low quality then all high quality products are not sold at Wal-Mart. Informal logic, which is the basis of science, is priceless, however, and yet relatively few people can grasp it adequately. People think that science means pouring chemical A from test tube B to test tube C, a problem that is global. When they intuitively use the scientific method to decide which delivery service works the best, they don't realize that they can apply it to so many other areas of life. Even in societies that view learning positively, such as China, where book learning is venerated, the idea that science is an integral part of life is foreign.



#16383: DarkSyde — 02/18  at  02:11 PM
I liked Formal Logic in college. I thought it was the best philosophy classes the depratment had to offer.

BTW Alon there's a guy Here that I've been discussing evolution with, who sounds like he wants to go off on an epistomology/methodology rant against the scientific method ALA Phil Johnson, if you're into that kind of self-inflicted pain. You could probably have a nice chat about the evils of scientific materialism if I'm reading him right ;)



#16389: — 02/18  at  02:36 PM
I wish I could talk to people like him without getting mad...

I'm taking a class in formal logic this semester and it's boring me to no end - I'm only taking it because it's a graduation requirement. But, mind you, it's a comp sci/math class, so your formal logic class may have had more interesting things than Boolean logic and naive set theory.

By the way, I'm in pirate mode right now, and "that scurvey dog" is just hilarious.



#16391: DarkSyde — 02/18  at  02:48 PM
Well the first one was pretty basic. A lot of folks who took it did so becuase it got them out of their math requirement. It started with things like Vinn Diagrams and went into ultra-basic symbolic logic. But the second was much better. Lots of symbolic logic. I was taking solid formal analysis at the grad level by then so I ate it up pretty easily, but I still had to try. It wasn't a total slap down and it was real interesting becuase it sort of counter pointed the other formal systems I was learning about at the time.
The one thing was, this prof used Evolution, of all things, to demonstrate tautologies and the denial of an AND statement, using de Morgan's, etc.



#16392: Rana — 02/18  at  02:50 PM
Our students aren’t buying a finished product, they’re getting a toolbox (with math at the heart of it) and instructions in how to use it. When they don’t realize that central fact, that’s when mutual disappointment occurs.

Hear, hear. This was frequently one of the hardest things to get across to my students -- eventually I had to be very blunt about it and actually say this to them, repeatedly, in class and in the syllabus, and to give them end-of-term assignments that forced them to reflect on the _skills_ they'd learned in class. (I'd gotten really, really sick of people who thought I wasn't really "teaching" if I didn't lecture all the time, and who deeply resented having to have discussions with other students "who didn't know anything." Um, dudes, learning how to converse, argue and work with people who you don't like IS part of what I'm teaching you!)

It wasn't that they were opposed to learning; it was that they didn't know what it was they were being expected to learn.

(And I will say, that once it sank in, deep, that what I wanted from them was for them to be able develop their own ideas (vs. parroting me back at myself), and that those ideas were in fact worth developing, they were often pathetically thrilled by the concept. It's horrible what our school system does for students' respect for thinking vs. rote learning -- including their own thinking.)



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