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Friday, May 27, 2005

Michael Behe: malignant metastasizing metaphors!

What is wrong with Behe? This interview in the Christian Post contains one of the most illogical, stupid, idiotic excuses for the Intelligent Design hypothesis I've read yet. The writer asks a simple question, one I'd like to see answered by the IDists, but Behe's answer is simply pathetic.

Do you see ID having enough evidence?

Yes, I certainly do. Well, I am a biochemist and biochemistry studies molecular basis of life. And in the past 50 years, science has discovered that at the very foundation of life there are sophisticated molecular machines, which do the work in the cell. I mean, literally, there are real machines inside everybody’s cells and this is what they are called by all biologists who work in the field, molecular machines. They’re little trucks and busses that run around the cell that takes supplies from one end of the cell to the other. They’re little traffic signals to regulate the flow. They’re sign posts to tell them when they get to the right destination. They’re little outboard motors that allow some cells to swim. If you look at the parts of these, they’re remarkably like the machineries that we use in our everyday world.

The argument is that we know from experience that machinery in our everyday world that we use in our everyday world required design, required an intelligent agent that put it together, who understood how it was going to be used and who assembled the parts. By an inductive argument, when we find such sophisticated machinery in other places too, we can conclude that it also requires design. So now that we found it in life and in the very foundation of life, I and other ID advocates argue that there is no reason to not reach the same conclusion and that in fact, these things were indeed designed.

Seriously. This is the best the man can do? He's asked for the evidence, and what does he give us? Irrelevant word games ("scientists call 'em 'machines'!"), and asinine metaphors. Calling cytoskeletal transport proteins "trucks and busses" does not make them so. If I call Michael Behe bird-brained, it does not mean I think he has feathers and can fly; it especially does not mean he should jump off a tall building, confident in his avian abilities.

And no, if you look closely at them, they are nothing like the machineries with which we are familiar. When scientists call them machines and pumps and signals and motors, they are making broad but severely limited analogies in order to communicate their function to other human beings who are familiar with machines and pumps and signals and motors. They are not trying to imply that Ford has the contract to manufacture annexins for the phylum Chordata, or that there are little winking green, yellow, and red lights in the cell. Most importantly, there is no intent to imply designers.

One other interesting omission in the article: nowhere does Behe even mention "irreducible complexity". I guess that's one concept the IDiots have learned belongs on the junkheap, yet it's the one thing that made Behe famous.


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Comments:
#26321: — 05/27  at  11:51 AM
Obviously Mike needs to learn about language even more than he needs to learn about evolution.



#26326: — 05/27  at  12:09 PM
So ID has evolved beyond "irreducible complexity" and is now focused on tiny little trucks and stoplights? Will the Designer be revealed to be Bob the Builder? (My 5-year-old nephew is a member of his cult and does daily devotions.)



#26330: — 05/27  at  12:17 PM
So, if I look through a microscope at a cell I'm going to see plumber's butt - is that what Behe is saying? One wonders if the people driving those little trucks are teamsters - they could get in big trouble if they aren't.



#26334: — 05/27  at  12:30 PM
He also reported that every time his wife tells their baby "Open up so the Oatmeal Plane can fly into the hanger" he gets worried that his wife is going to hit their kid in the mouth with an actual Oatmeal Plane.



#26336: — 05/27  at  12:32 PM
Behe's tone was appropriate for his subject. "Intelligent Design! Beep Beep! Choo Choo!"...



#26337: charlie wagner — 05/27  at  12:42 PM
Paul wrote:

"What is wrong with Behe?"

The answer is: absolutely nothing. In fact, he's right on the money. I've been saying this for years . I'm glad top see that Mike is finally paying attention to what I've said repeatedly.

BEHE'S MOUSETRAP REVISITED

"In his book "Darwin's Black Box", Michael Behe discusses what he refers to as "irreducible complexity". He defines IC as "a single system, composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning". He goes on to say that "an irreducibly complex system cannot be produced directly…by slight, successive modifications of a precursor system, because any precursor to an irreducibly complex system that is missing a part is by definition non-functional". He should have seen it coming. The critics had a field day with this because he handed them on a silver platter the means to defeat his claim. All the detractors had to do was to show that even if a part is removed some function, perhaps a different function, still remains and that there can be a workable but simpler form of the system. One can readily see by the most cursory of examinations that one could easily remove the platform and nail the other parts to the floor. Clearly Behe's mousetrap is not irreducibly complex when measured against the definition that he provided. Behe missed the boat by measuring irreducibly complexity against simpler, non-functional systems. He approached the problem backwards by saying that if any part was removed the system would become non-functional. He should have known better. But Behe was right about one thing. The mousetrap is unevolvable by random, non-directed, accidental processes but not for the reason he provided. The reason for this is that a mousetrap has a quality called organization, which is much different from complexity or order. Each part of the mousetrap, the platform, the holding bar, the spring, the hammer and the catch each have specific functions. And each of these functions are organized in such a way that they support the overall function of the mousetrap, which is to catch mice. The function of the platform is to hold the parts, but it's there ultimately to facilitate the process of mouse catching. The function of the spring is to exert a force on the hammer, but it's ultimate goal is to enable the process of mouse catching. All of the parts have functions that not only support the other functions, but ultimately support the overall function of the device. This type of organization is not obtainable without insight, and insight always requires intelligence. There is no way that these parts could be assembled in such a manner without insight. A mousetrap is a simple machine, made up of several structures and processes and exists for a purpose. The construction of the mousetrap was initiated with intent, and fashioned for a purpose. Living organisms are similarly machines, with structures and processes that work together to create a function. In fact, all complex, highly organized machines in which means are adapted to ends are the product of intelligent design. The important point is that the adaptation of means to ends, the adaptation of structure and process to function requires insight. Behe's mousetrap is unevolvable, not because you can't take it apart without it losing it's function, it's unevolvable because you can't put it together in the first place using only random, non-directed, accidental occurrences. The selection of the parts, the configuration in which they're aligned, the assembly into one unit all require intelligent decisions at every step of the way. Similarly, living organisms show the same characteristics. It's not that you can't remove parts and lose total function, it's that you can't explain why these particular parts were selected, why they're integrated together in just such a way and how they were assembled from raw materials without invoking an intelligent agent."

Get the whole paper at:
http://www.charliewagner.net/casefor.htm

With all due respect, the controversy is over. And you want to know what nailed it down? Firstly, Sean Carroll's book, but more specifically, PZ's article on jellyfish. These "toolkit genes" and genetic switches have been around since the beginning. They didn't evolve, couldn't evolve. They came to earth already programmed and ready to unfold their coded information.
Just as development is the unfolding of an algorithm already present in the genome, in which "switches" are activated in various combinations and at various times so, what you call evolution is similarly the unfolding of a pre-programmed algorithm that was present in the ancient genome. Where this "program" came from, no one knows. But that it is the product of intelligence is clear and compelling.Evolution is over and now all we are seeing is extinction.



#26339: Niket — 05/27  at  12:44 PM
"Obviously Mike needs to learn about language even more than he needs to learn about evolution."
If you are referring to the metaphor Behe uses in the first paragraph, I think you are wrong. Its an excellent analogy to show the beauty underlying the biological processes. Hemoglobin is indeed like trucks and buses, in that it loads up oxygen at the lung depot and transports it to the various organs(*). But thats where the analogy ends. Saying that this is an example of design is ignorance at best; but I suspect its simply deception.

I like the bird brained analogy that PZ provides. lol grin
---
(*) What kind of designer would use the same truck to transport essential commodities as well as dump trash? Ewww, gross!



's avatar #26340: PZ Myers — 05/27  at  12:47 PM
Charlie, you are either insane or stupid.

Those toolkit genes could evolve and did evolve. They are uncontroversial elaborations upon patterns we find in bacteria. And no, Homo sapiens is not a recipe pre-encoded in the genome of a bacterial precursor.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#26341: — 05/27  at  12:59 PM
Charlie:

If one takes your genetic front-loading story seriously, it means that not only is every species a fore-ordained outcome but indeed every variant individual. Every case of Huntington's disease, BRCA mutant, etc. - all pre-ordained by the designer. Not only is it non-scientific nonsense, it is really whacked theology.

Shaggy



#26342: — 05/27  at  01:01 PM
Mr Behe's metaphors are perfectly adequate for teaching cell mechanisms to a bunch of 10 year-olds, for they would understand it well. However, the illogical step from his metaphor to the concepts that, "see they are machines and since men also designed machines we must have also be designed" is ludicrous and insults the intelligence of any rational human. He cannot accept the fact that he wasn't designed to be here and isn't the favored prodigy of some supreme entity. Get over it and quit trying to rationalize something that isn't supported by evidence of any kind.



#26344: — 05/27  at  01:04 PM
If I call Michael Behe bird-brained, it does not mean I think he has feathers and can fly; it especially does not mean he should jump off a tall building, confident in his avian abilities.


It doesn't?



's avatar #26346: Stephen Stralka — 05/27  at  01:11 PM
Charlie, you are either insane or stupid.

Having glanced through Charlie's site, I don't think he's stupid. Maybe not insane either, strictly speaking, but definitely a crank. An atheist creationist? WTF?

His main argument, by the way, is the good old argument from personal incredulity. Charlie Wagner is unpersuaded by the arguments for evolution, so evolution is false. The foundations of modern biology have just been shaken to the core, eh? That he doesn't understand evolutionary theory, and is largely ignorant of the scientific literature, is of course irrelevant.



's avatar #26347: Ken Cope — 05/27  at  01:18 PM
Charlie, you are either insane or stupid.
Why bifurcate? Both it is.



#26352: charlie wagner — 05/27  at  02:01 PM
Paul wrote:

" Charlie, you are either insane or stupid."

May the Great Spirit Bless you
with the knowledge of your inner
strength and wisdom.
May you have the strength of eagles' wings,
The faith and courage to fly to new heights,
And the wisdom of the universe to carry you there.

We can only be what we give
ourselves the power to be.

Best regards, Charlie Wagner



#26356: murky — 05/27  at  02:27 PM
The simple reply to Behe's car and truck theory is that if enzymes and the like were cars and trucks, their designer would long ago have gone out of business. I mean, just imagine the class action suits if Ford and GM machines performed according to Poisson statistics and the law of mass action. Supposing that kind of exposure, Behe just begs the question of who is the designer's insurer.



#26357: — 05/27  at  02:34 PM
I can easily envision a mousetrap evolving: You start by trapping the mouse with your paw for about a million years. Then you learn to hit the mouse with a rock. Then you prop the rock up with a stick so the mouse knocks it out. Then you attach a string to the stick so you can pull it out. Then you put some cheese under the rock. Then you attach the cheese to the string so the mouse drops the rock by itself. At 1 million years per step, that would take maybe 6 million years.



#26358: — 05/27  at  02:47 PM
I mean, literally, there are real machines inside everybody’s cells and this is what they are called by all biologists who work in the field, molecular machines.


I seriously hope that Behe is never in the need to operate any machinery, since his understanding of what machines are seems as limited as his understanding of biology and language.



#26359: — 05/27  at  02:52 PM
From his self-conducted Q&A on Charlie's site:

[QUOTE]"Almost all scientists accept evolution as fact. How do you reconcile your views with the overwhelming opposition of mainstream science?"

It is constantly a source of wonder and amazement to me that highly competent scientists, whom I otherwise hold in high regard, have not come to these same conclusions.[/QUOTE]


LOL. Yeah, ain't it a *bitch*?, Mr. Wagner?



#26363: — 05/27  at  03:22 PM
Wow. I had no idea that this was what one could expect from one of the "leading lights" of the ID movement. Breathtakingly inane.

So, should I feel better--since a leading ID proponent can't come up with anything remotely coherent to support his position--or do I feel worse--since millions of people still take someone like Behe seriously?



#26364: — 05/27  at  03:26 PM
Charlie, you are either insane or stupid.

Tsk, tsk. A false dichotomy.

One problem with "front-loading" of genetic information is that those first cells, with all the info necessary for making worms, insects, fish, reptiles, mammals, birds, etc. would have been carrying a boat-load of genetic info that wasn't fit for the environment they were in, and if any of them jettisoned that nonadaptive load they would have a tremendous advantage at survival. Thus front-loading requires not just a one-time miracle of creation, but a sustained miracle lasting billions of years to keep that genetic info on-board for future use.



#26366: murky — 05/27  at  03:50 PM
"if any of them jettisoned that nonadaptive load they would have a tremendous advantage at survival."

No they wouldn't.



#26367: — 05/27  at  03:56 PM
Actually, one can say that mouse-traps 'evolved' from nature. These traps are just copies of natural dead-falls, just with various bells-and-whistles to make them more reliable.



's avatar #26368: PZ Myers — 05/27  at  03:58 PM
Yeah, the fact that we carry a huge load of garbage DNA right now says that it wouldn't make a difference. However, the fact that this junk is freely mutable and accumulates variation at a rapid clip does say that any secret functional codes would not survive.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#26370: murky — 05/27  at  04:32 PM
Unless the codes were secret only with respect to their "ultimate" (i.e. current) function and in the meantime served some other function that increased fitness and/or tagged along spandrel-wise. My point was "no, that assertion won't fly," which I think we both agree.



#26372: murky — 05/27  at  04:34 PM
i.e. I'm disallowing or raising a red flag on the "non-adaptive" assumption that was entangled in the poster's point.



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