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Saturday, August 06, 2005

Michael Ruse is a very confused fellow

Michael Ruse has an interview in Salon, prompted by the publication of his new book, The Evolution-Creation Struggle (amzn/b&n/abe/pwll). The interview does not motivate me to bother with his book at all. He says some sensible things, and then he goes off the deep end and says some ridiculous things. Like this:

The most interesting thing that the creationists are doing is pointing, as Matthew says, at the beams in the eyes of the evolutionists. Meaning that we all too often get into evolutionism and link up our evolutionary positions with social prescriptions and with atheism.

I'm all in favor of social prescriptions, and I'm not knocking anybody for being an atheist. I call myself a skeptic, but that's a hell of a lot closer to atheism than it is to Christianity. But I want to see what grounds you have for saying that, and whether or not your positions follow from one another. If they do, maybe you should ask yourself, "Am I not being a hypocrite in teaching evolutionary biology in American schools?" Given the fact that it's clearly illegal. You're not allowed to teach religion in biology class.

I can't understand why I can't get through people's thick skulls on this one. If in fact Darwinian evolutionary theory implies atheism, then you ought not to be teaching it in schools! It's not good enough to say, "Well, I'm a National Socialist. But the fact that that meant a lot of Jews were hauled off to Auschwitz, that's not my worry!" It bloody is! If your theory leads to 6 million Jews being made into soap, not only is there something deeply troubling about your theory, but you've got a moral obligation to face up to its implications. If this theory leads to atheism, then it's got religious implications.

I know why he can't "get through people's thick skulls"—it's because he's wrong.

I consider myself an evolutionist and a strong atheist, but that doesn't mean I think teaching evolution is a way to proselytize for atheism; science describes how the world works, and says nothing about whether supernatural beings do or do not exist. Personally, it's the absolute lack of evidence for gods that is sufficient to make gods uninteresting to me, not the fact that fruit flies have Hox genes…and quite a few people agree that natural phenomena like common descent and natural selection do not contradict their ideas of how gods might work. Ruse is flailing against a straw man here.

The idea that teaching evolution is a violation of church and state is playing right into the creationist's hands. When I teach about Hardy-Weinberg equilibria, am I promoting my religion? Is p2+2pq+q2=1 a heresy for someone? Are geologists who teach that the world is round or mathematicians who think pi=3.1416 preaching religious dogma? I suspect that most of my students are Christian, and I suspect that most emerge from my classes with their faith completely unchallenged and unchanged…of course, I can only suspect that, though, because I never even ask what religion they follow. I just don't care.

Where Ruse really goes off the rails, though, is that last paragraph. If he won't knock anyone for being an atheist, why is he making such a blatant comparison between Jew-burning Nazis and atheists? He certainly is implying that atheism is going to lead to genocide, and that by training people in evolutionary biology we're producing the next generation of murderers. That's pretty damn offensive and ignorant, if you ask me. It's pure creationist argument from false consequences. And just to top off the insult, look at this comment from a little later in the interview:

I see the sacrifices they make. William Dembski [the mathematician and philosopher who is among the I.D. movement's intellectual stars] is a very bright guy who should have been able to get a very good job, and he's reduced to going off to some theological tinpot college in Tennessee or something [actually, the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky.]. Paul Nelson hasn't got a regular job. They're making sacrifices for their faith. While I think their position is terrible, I don't see them as evil people. I don't see them as Hitlers. They're caught up in an appalling, idiosyncratic American religion. So they're not the first.

So, ummm, the creationists who are corrupting our education system and destroying the sciences in America are not Hitlers, but the evolutionists are. Thanks, Dr Ruse. You're a big help.

I don't think Dembski or Nelson are little Hitlers, either (Dobson, on the other hand, is a wanna-be). Nelson is a nice human being, and although I've never met Dembski, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that he can be personable, too. That doesn't matter; if being a good person qualified you for prestigious jobs, then Mr Rogers would have been president of the US. Oh, and Hitler loved dogs. Who cares? It's their wrong-headedness and ignorance of biology that disqualifies them from respectable positions, not their religion.


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Comments:
#33987: mallarme — 08/06  at  09:48 AM
Ah, I knew you'd comment on this. What particularly struck me while reading this interview is that Ruse regularly equates atheism with religion. Since when is the absence of something the same as its presence? If I have no superstitions, does that make me a superstitious person? By telling people that black cats are not unlucky, I am not promoting my own brand of superstition. While some atheists may hold their views with a religious-like fervor, that doesn't make atheism a religion. At most, it's a philosophy, but nobody claims that the Categorical Imperative is divine revelation or that the Allegory of the Cave is scripture.



's avatar #33988: PZ Myers — 08/06  at  09:54 AM
Yeah, and I also think he has some unconscious hostility to atheism.

By the way, everyone, notice that when I link to books, I now give you the choice of Amazon, Barnes&Noble, Abebooks, or Powells—I figured out how to get to all of them with just an ISBN, so it isn't too much work for me to set up pointers to 'em all.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#33990: coturnix — 08/06  at  09:59 AM
I figured out how to get to all of them with just an ISBN
Is this a secret or can you tell us how you do this?



#33992: — 08/06  at  10:32 AM
Love the multiple choice book links! Finally, someone who understands my Amazonophobia.



#33993: — 08/06  at  10:37 AM
If in fact Darwinian evolutionary theory implies atheism, then you ought not to be teaching it in schools!

Wrong. There's not a scientific fact under the sun that doesn't contradict somebody's nutty religious dogma. Therefore, under this "logic" every fact is "in violation of church and state", and facts couldn't be taught at all. It doesn't matter one ounce what the religious "implications" are of facts taught in school, only that they are judged competently as factual. Let the religions change around facts, not vice versa, if for no other reason then that the latter set-up would be impossible!



#33994: Mark Nutter — 08/06  at  10:38 AM
Ruse's reasoning reminds me a bit of a pattern I've seen before. It goes like this: According to the First Amendment, the government isn't supposed to favor any one religion over any other. Atheists do not favor any one religion over any other. Therefore, the government must be favoring atheism!

Hello? It's not atheism's fault that, by not favoring any particular religion, it happens to resemble the goal of religious neutrality required by the First Amendment. But I fear the point is lost on a lot of people. Religious neutrality isn't really what they want; what they really want is the freedom to impose their own religious views on everyone else "as God intended."



#33995: — 08/06  at  10:45 AM
Ruse denies being a believer rather too many times, I think. Certainly the associations he sets up - the "slippery slope" into atheism, the bit about the Nazis - are wildly anti-atheist. He also does the casual conflation of one particular religion with capital-R Religion, which only makes sense if you're a believer.



#33997: — 08/06  at  10:49 AM
The "nazi card", here, like so often, is totally gratuitous, unhelpful and disproportionate. Man, there should be rules to use that kind of dubious analogy... Arthur Caplan recently wrote an interesting editorial on precisely that question, though in another context (Misusing the Nazi Analogy, Science 22 July 2005: 535). Ruse is indeed a very confused and confusing guy. At first I thought he was some sort of "contrarian" or iconoclast, but now i'm beginning to wonder if he's not just plain stupid.



's avatar #33998: Hank Fox — 08/06  at  10:51 AM
"According to the First Amendment, the government isn't supposed to favor any one religion over any other. Atheists do not favor any one religion over any other. Therefore, the government must be favoring atheism!"

Wow, Mark, excellent point!

Hey, that comment on Dembski sacrificing for his faith. You mean it's actually COSTING these dummies something to be so radically wrongheaded? Good gosh, that's hopeful news!



#33999: — 08/06  at  10:53 AM
Wow. From the little I knew about Ruse before, I was disinclined to read him, since I don't really care if Christianity and evolution are compatible.

Now, as an atheist descendant of Holocaust victims & survivors, I just want to punch the guy. To say that my distinct lack of belief in something is comparable to an ideology that justifies the murder of some of my relatives and countless other innocents is a remarkably severe and unfounded insult. At least it takes him out of the running as anyone with an argument worth listening to.

I mean, come on. Nation Socialism is a political platform. It is inherently about how things should be (according to its adherents, obviously). So it's the intended and expected consequence that when enough people believe it, they take (reprehensible, unforgiveable) actions based on it. Now evolutionary theory? Um, that's a theory. An assessment on the way things already are, based on evidence. And then he has it leading to atheism, which is, well, another assessment, this time of how things ain't. Hardly a course of action. So the analogy

National Socialism: Holocaust :: Evolutionary theory: Atheism

breaks down to something like

[political philosophy]: [Actions] :: [Scientific theory]:: [belief]

A bit spurious, no?



#34000: — 08/06  at  11:03 AM
Just my opinion. At most, science and biology in particular implies agnosticism, not atheism. A kind of "I don't need the God hypothesis", not "I don't think there is a God". The difference is obvious, and I really wonder how come Ruse didn't use it. Looks like he really hates atheists.

Marco Ferrari



's avatar #34002: Raven — 08/06  at  11:22 AM
The difference is obvious, and I really wonder how come Ruse didn't use it. Looks like he really hates atheists.


I think you just answered your own question, Marco--to the "you're either with us or against us" mentality, there's no room for the concept that maybe it has nothing to do with them. In other words, the difference is obvious to you and me, but he can't see it, or even conceive of it.



#34003: — 08/06  at  11:24 AM
Ruse's hostility to atheism and pro-religious bent are apparently obvious to everyone but him. The man is dispensing crap by the truckload...



#34004: — 08/06  at  11:37 AM
If teaching Darwinian evolution "implies" atheism, there is something terribly, terribly wrong with one's definition of faith. As Jefferson noted, true faiths don't require the support of government to get along in life.

And, for what it's worth, it's not evolution that implies atheism. What generally happens -- quiz a few creationists who believe it does imply atheism to see if they don't tell you a story to show I'm right, matching what I say here -- is a kid is crammed full of six-day creation/atheists-are-evil/watch-out-for-scientists-who-try-to-lead-you-astray crap for a dozen years or so. Then they get to college, where they learn in geology that only a fool doesn't understand there is great age in rocks; where they meet an atheist English lit prof who, in his reading of Huckleberry Finn, demonstrates that we can make the world a more moral place, and where they find a Zen Buddhist who is the best teacher of Bible studies they've ever known; and where they meet up with a student health service that gets them over all sorts of stuff with advanced pharmaceuticals and solid advice based on research. Now, having understood first hand that they were lied to about at least three giant things in church, they question all the other stuff they had been instructed in.

I cannot count how many church women have told me sad stories about their kids "going atheist" as soon as they got to college. "And we never let him take biology so he wouldn't be polluted by Darwin," they say . . .

And finally, let us note that Hitler knew nothing about Darwin. In fact, just as Stalin rejected Darwin and Darwinian theory, Hitler rejected modern biology. Ashley Montagu relates the really shockingly sad story of how Hitler refused to allow the creation of blood banks. This meant that tens of thousands of German soldiers died of blood loss when they could have been saved, while the Allied ranks did not suffer similarly. As Montagu relates it, Hitler was sure that heritage is carried in the blood (the Bible says so, after all). So he was afraid that his Aryan soldiers might be turned into Jews by transfusions, and in any case, he did not want the possibility of mixing blood. Hitler even believed in a Jewish blood type . . .

Well, Ruse is perpetuating such illogical ignorance. He should be ashamed. He should be sentenced to reading Darwin, and reading real history.



#34005: — 08/06  at  11:38 AM
P. S. I love the idea of linking AbeBooks. Any way to add Sam Weller, too?



#34006: — 08/06  at  11:43 AM
Is anyone really surprised at this though? Once upon a time Ruse had some pretty sensible positions but over the last ten years or he has degenerated into a caricature of his former self.



#34008: — 08/06  at  11:51 AM
PZ, you say: I don't think Dembski or Nelson are little Hitlers, either (Dobson, on the other hand, is a wanna-be).

In what sense is Dobson like Hitler, or aspiring to be like Hitler?

Fuz



#34009: Jeremy Henty — 08/06  at  11:54 AM
Ruse seems to think atheists must bend over backwards
to avoid giving any offense to religion. The paragraphs
you quote are quite shocking; did I read them wrong or
is he really saying we should censor science to avoid
treading on religion's toes? Did he really imply that
telling someone their religion is wrong is on a par with
genocide? Can he really not distinguish between a
scientific theory and a political party?

Ruse cannot see that creationism is at best intellectually
bankrupt and at worst intellectually dishonest. He's
convinced they must be on the level, and so he's
swallowed their propanganda hook, line and sinker.
I'm with comment #33999: Ruse just doesn't have any
credibility on this issue any more.



#34011: Matt Dunn — 08/06  at  12:03 PM
Well, I have to admit that I don't really like Michael Ruse as a scholar or as a person. While he wrote a landmark book in Darwin studies in the 70s, 'Darwinian Revolution', he hasn't done a whole lot since then. And he's a very rude, center of attention sort of class bully in person. Not very enjoyable to be around I didn't think.

But, as far as PZ Myer's remarks, I think he's misunderstanding Ruse a bit. While it is certainly imprudent to pull the Nazi card, he's doing it for effect and actually doesn't imply that atheism will lead to genocide at all. At least in the selection reproduced above. Rather, I think he is simply arguing by analogy that in the Nazi case, clearly we all agree that being a National Socialist is bad because it led (I don't agree here, but this is his argument) to the holocaust. So we should be responsible for what our beliefs entail. According to Ruse, such is the case with evolution. Ruse argues that just like being a National Socialist, being an evolutionist will lead to things that aren't good, namely teaching religion (in this case atheism) in public schools. In other words, we have to be responsible for what our beliefs entail.

Well, I know Ruse has this distinction between 'evolution the science' and 'evolutionism the ''religion''', and he seems to be conflating the two here. Maybe he sorts it out in the rest of the interview?

I also realize that his language is a bit vague, if that's the source of the confusion, what with the last sentence in that last paragraph reading 'If this theory leads to atheism, then it's got religious implications', but I think he meant to say if 'evolution leads to atheism', not 'if national socialism leads to atheism'. I don't know, I could be completely wrong here.



#34012: — 08/06  at  12:06 PM
Ruse was beginning to sound a bit like the fanatical screed of John Whitehead that I just read (from The Rutherford Institute ( http://www.rutherford.org/articles_db/commentary.asp?record_id=316 )in which he credits the religion of evolution with the rise of "racism, facism and totalitarianism."
"If in fact Darwinian evolutionary theory implies atheism,..." but the evidence clearly indicates that this is not true, so what is the point in continuing as Ruse does--after all, one can easily cite examples where Christianity or other religious beliefs have led to bloodshed and misery.



#34013: coturnix — 08/06  at  12:06 PM
I readearlu Ruse's stuff avidly. I may not have agreed with a lot of it, but it was good. I don't know what has got into him? Now that he moved from Canada to Florida, perhaps the sun boiled his brain. He is getting worse and worse. I decided not to bother reading his last two books or so - not worth my time and effort. I met him a few years back and he seems a nice guy. Is he just trying to stir up the pot? Bored of repeating his old stuff so is trying hard to come up with something new? Got to be too good a friend with Johnson? Dunno. Strange.



#34015: QrazyQat — 08/06  at  12:18 PM
I'm not sure how much "cost" is involved in it for people like Dembski. Essentially he's getting a salary, perhaps not at an especially pretigious school, to do little work and spout nonsense -- that sounds like a pretty easy gig to me, not like a scarifice.



's avatar #34016: PZ Myers — 08/06  at  12:22 PM
That's it--it's Florida. What say we send Darksyde around to teach him a lesson?

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#34017: coturnix — 08/06  at  12:27 PM
Katherine Harris got his brain... wink

(The posting word is "sperm")



#34018: coturnix — 08/06  at  12:31 PM
BTW, book reviews on Amazon are...well...pretty bad. Has anyone actually read the book and is willing to post a good review there?



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