#52282: Kristine Harley — 12/05  at  10:03 PM
I'm with BWJones. You do not pull a gun unless you intend to shoot, and you do not shoot unless you intend to kill. There must be no hesitation or second-guessing in a gun owner (which is why I could never be a gun owner). I think that this kind of discussion is premature.

Let's see what happens with the investigation. If no one is arrested soon, and if the major media ignore this, we should raise a major stink. Let's send letters of support and cards to Paul (and $$ if he has lots of medical bills), and if the authorities sit on this, let's issue statements, let's march down that road in Kansas. (Though it's likely never to come to that.)

Everyone be safe.

#52284: — 12/05  at  10:05 PM
That is bad news. I hate to see the situation get so out of control in Kansas. Pity the fundies are making this into an all or none situation.

#52286: — 12/05  at  10:15 PM
A chairman of a religion department shouldn’t be hostile to conservative Christianity.

Why not? Seriously, other than perhaps risking a lapse in professorial manners, is there anything wrong with taking a hostile stance towards a particular religious faith? I would say not, anymore than there being anything wrong with a professor of philosophy taking a hostile stance towards dualism.

#52287: — 12/05  at  10:16 PM
Watch this turn out to be a hoax ala Professor Kerri Dunn of Claremont.

#52289: — 12/05  at  10:25 PM
It just never ceases to amaze me that these morons defend their ideology with violence, (in violation of their ideology). They're Christians, "for Christ's sake".

#52290: — 12/05  at  10:26 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought Mirecki's inflamatory statements were in an email to a closed listserve.

If so, I'm not even convinced there was any real error of judgement. After all, a listserve with limited readership is - if anything - more private than a blog. Overall, making a negative crack about fundamentalists may not be diplomatic, but the vitriol with which Mirecki has been attacked for being impolite (hardly a crime) is frightening.

And this news is simply appalling. It is also scary to see all of the posts on the Lawrence KS Journal web page that is linked that accuse Mirecki of faking the attack. At one level I would never dismiss anything as impossible - academics are human and are capable of all of the wacky behaviors that any other group of human beings are capable of. But to accuse Mirecki with no evidence really says something horrible. How much basic humanity does it take - even if you are a fire-breathing fundie - to say "beatin' people up is a bad thing, even if they are atheists..."

#52291: — 12/05  at  10:27 PM
Buridan: I know. Even my mother doesn't open my get well cards.

and tWB said: Tastant, the thing to keep in mind is that a lot of far-right evangelical and fundamentalist rhetoric is literally militant: armies, soldiers, and the like, not to mention their obsession with the actual military. Beating a university professor -- and keep in mind that they were following his truck, which implies surveillance and premeditation -- is the logical outcome of their rhetoric.

Oh, I don't know. I think the "take things to far gene" is just distributed amongst people irrespective of their beliefs, so you will have jihad terrorists and redneck vigilantes for Christ but you will have atheist lunatic systems like Stalinism too. My guess is you, tWB, tune in most acutely when you hear speak of Christian armies and war metaphors and selectively forget much of the other content of Christianspeak, but usually when I hear kooky Christian ministers on TV they are talking about the salvation thing or tempting by Satan or putting God in your heart, etc. I don't see the Mirecki beating as a logical outcome in any necessary way.

Some fundamentalist Christians are just old ladies baking pies.

This being said, I do feel that if the goal is to maximize the chance for utilitarian happiness, Christianity or any religion is not the way to go.

#52292: — 12/05  at  10:31 PM
Seriously, other than perhaps risking a lapse in professorial manners, is there anything wrong with taking a hostile stance towards a particular religious faith?

My understanding is that it is perfectly acceptable -- indeed, it is mandated -- to assume that those who worship different deities are going to rot in hell and suffer unbearable pain for all eternity.

You just aren't supposed to say it to anyone except people who don't know better.

Like little kids.

But it's bad manners or even unconstitutional to tell a fundamentalist liar who espouses anti-gay and anti-science bigotry that they are lying bigots.

That's what Jim Dobson told me.

Of course, Jim Dobson also told me to take showers with my son so we could compare penises and embolden our heterosexuality.

Grain of salt, etc.

#52293: Federico Contreras — 12/05  at  10:31 PM
> Good luck in San Francisco.

hehe, I live in canada, we have no need of guns, because our society is politer then yours =) (we do have an alarming number of guns though, we're just not as trigger happy as the states it seems).

I have my opinions, but any talk of concealed carry is hypothetical.

#52294: — 12/05  at  10:32 PM
The amazing thing about those ignorant thugs is that they aren't even bright enough to understand that their attack won't do the cause of Christian Fundamentalism any good.
The movement will get another black eye as a result.

#52295: — 12/05  at  10:37 PM
Some fundamentalist Christians are just old ladies baking pies.

Yeah, like 30% of them.

#52296: — 12/05  at  10:52 PM
How timely!

http://www.thegodmovie.com/press/releases/waronchristmas.html

Beyond Belief Media has formally declared war on Christmas, the December 25 holiday in which Christians celebrate the birth of the mythical figure Jesus Christ, the company announced today.

“Christian conservatives complain nonstop about the ‘War on Christmas,’ but there really isn’t any such war,” said Beyond Belief Media president Brian Flemming , a former fundamentalist Christian who is now an atheist activist. “So we have decided to wage one, to demonstrate what it would look like if Jesus’ birthday were truly attacked.”

As its opening salvo, Beyond Belief Media has purchased advertisements this week in the New York Times , USA Today and the New Yorker magazine. The company’s 300-member volunteer “street team” is also descending on Christmas-themed public events with random “guerilla giveaways” of Beyond Belief’s acclaimed DVD THE GOD WHO WASN'T THERE .

“No Christmas pageant or Nativity display is safe from our troops,” said Flemming. “Wherever the mythical figure Jesus is celebrated as if he were real, we will be there with an information barrage. We will undercut the idea that there is any point at all to celebrating the ‘birth’ of a character in a fairy tale.”

#52297: — 12/05  at  10:58 PM
“No Christmas pageant or Nativity display is safe from our troops,” said Flemming. “Wherever the mythical figure Jesus is celebrated as if he were real, we will be there with an information barrage. We will undercut the idea that there is any point at all to celebrating the ‘birth’ of a character in a fairy tale.”

Heh. But will they be carrying concealed weapons??? ;)

#52298: BWJones — 12/05  at  10:58 PM
Frederico,

You might be surprised to know that I am in fact a gun owner. Furthermore, I also possess a concealed carry permit because of a job I held as an undergraduate. However, I was also well trained and am familiar with tactics as well as the statistics related to handgun injuries/deaths and I also respect the desire of individuals and groups to prevent carrying of firearms in their businesses, homes and places of worship.

Honestly, there just is not much cause for the average person to carry. Look, I obviously support gun rights to an extent, but I also believe that anyone licensed to carry a firearm concealed must be able to prove a level of competence and proficiency so that they do not complicate matters for others including those around you and any police officers that may be responding. The last thing I want is some guy pulling a gun and complicating a situation that does not warrant pulling a firearm.

For all the rednecks out there to worry about, there are just as many folks out there who are carrying firearms without the appropriate training or skills necessary. Who should we be more concerned with? A redneck that wants to pick a fight, or a scared, angry white guy with a gun and no skills?

Also, for 1998, you might be interested in these statistics of the number of people killed by handguns.

373 people in Germany
151 people in Canada
57 people in Australia
19 people in Japan
54 people in England and Wales, and
11,789 people in the United States

#52299: ekzept — 12/05  at  11:01 PM
best wishes and quick recovery to Professor Mirecki.

y'know, there's a line of reasoning, however idealistic, which says the reason governments shouldn't use capital punishment and the like to enforce the law is that it justifies to their citizens that might makes right.

and what is an attack on a professor supposed to achieve? is it supposed to make people afraid of giving opinions, of expressing their viewpoint?

is this, then, the new, social conservative, how-to-deal-with-an-abortion-doctor democratic way? the means are justified by the ends. this is, after all, a new kind of war.

and a professor of theology no less?

no, sadly, it's the sentiment of a bumper sticker i saw plastered proudly on a car a couple of years ago spread cancerously throughout the country:

My kid beat up your honors student.

#52300: — 12/05  at  11:02 PM
The more I reflect on this, the more impressed I am.

Assuming this isn't a total load of crap, it would represent the most visible expression of atheism and skepticism towards religion that I can recall in my lifetime.

About time.

#52301: ekzept — 12/05  at  11:04 PM
any information on the numbers in Switzerland? there are a lot of firearms there, prepositioned for defense. someone told me 30+ years ago, however, that these are very seldom used even in crime. apparently if a crime is committed using the prepositioned weapons, the trial is a military court, with military penalties.

#52302: ekzept — 12/05  at  11:05 PM
that question was to BWJones. sorry for the ambiguity.

#52303: Federico Contreras — 12/05  at  11:06 PM
BWJones, next time you misspell my name I'm gonna make a voodoo doll of you and stick a pin in its nut.

Don't make me draw that pin. I do not believe in warning pins.

#52304: — 12/05  at  11:13 PM
Or Rich Lapchick, Zog.

I know nothing about Mirecki, but this is hardly typical behavior by rednecks.

On the other hand ...

Time will tell.

#52306: Eva Young — 12/05  at  11:13 PM
Blogspot is up again. I hear that the Kansas news station kept of flashing the email of Mirecki's that talked about the "fat face" of the "fundies" when they talked about him getting beat up. Apparently the guy who has gotten Mirecki's postings to a yahoogroups to the press, John Altevogt is skeptical that the event actually happened.

#52307: BWJones — 12/05  at  11:15 PM
ekzept,

In Switzerland, gun ownership is compulsory. However, regulation is much more closely regulated than it is in the US. If I recall correctly, handguns may be purchased, but they are registered as is the ammunition that you purchase for them. I don't have any statistics, but I am sure you can Google them. However, I do seem to remember something about handgun murders in Switzerland per capita as being second in the world only to the US.... I could be wrong about that though, so don't quote me.

#52308: BWJones — 12/05  at  11:20 PM
F.e.d.e.r.i.c.o,


Sorry dude. I will have to plead guilty and blame it on my dyslexia. When I was a kid, I used to have the class in hysterics when it came time to read out loud. But I honestly see words funny sometimes, particularly those I am not familiar with.

#52309: Federico Contreras — 12/05  at  11:21 PM
Too late.

#52310: jinx — 12/05  at  11:49 PM

I do seem to remember something about handgun murders in Switzerland per capita as being second in the world only to the US

The US is 24th in the world for per capita murder (no telling how much guns play into that, much murder in the the world and US is knives, poisoning, etc). Many assume the US would be close to the top: stats.

Guns are used to successfully defend in the US between 2 and 5 million times a year depending on whose stats you believe and citizens are dramatically less likely to shoot someone without legal justification than are police (sorry I don't have links/numbers right now). Guns in the US kill between 10,000-20,000 per year and it's at a low right now. Cars kill 4 times as many but no one talks about reducing the national speed limit to 25 even though it would save 30,000 lives. It would be ludicrous; those lives are balanced against the overwhelming national gain of commerce and freedom.