#36512: — 08/19  at  06:00 PM
This makes sense. Native Americans have centuries of experience of going to school and having the White folks' religion jammed down their throats. They know that if they get any religious dogma in schools, they won't have any say at all in what dogma it is. So it's clear to them that no religious instruction in school is by far their best deal.

Plus, Indian country is quite religiously diverse. They're not interested in dividing themselves further.

#36514: charlie wagner — 08/19  at  06:26 PM
SOPHISM OF THE DAY

Seen on a bumper sticker...

"Are you an AMERICAN...or a LIBERAL?"

#36534: Via — 08/19  at  08:36 PM
If the religious right has its way, there won't even BE any public schools.....

#36536: — 08/19  at  09:17 PM
"Are you an AMERICAN...or a LIBERAL?"
I guess labels make some folk comfortable. I am an economic conservative and a social liberal.
Guess sometimes I am an American and sometimes I am not.
also...
Labels always have a streak of animosity implied, don't they? Kinda' like making fun of the fat kid in 3rd grade.

#36540: — 08/19  at  09:55 PM
"Secular schools don't mean kids are being taught atheism—it means they are not being taught any religious dogma, and are free to believe about religion as they please."

Is it really quite this easy? Over on Scienceg8 (referenced from the Pharyngula post called "Oh, No, It's the Anti-Mooney"), Dr. Myers succinctly noted: "The root problem is that reality eats away at the credibility of religion. We have a choice: we can continue to do our best to teach accurate descriptions of reality to our kids, or we can pander to religious extremists and teach them false and antiquated notions. The former is the only rational thing to do."

We may not be teaching atheism, but if teaching reality "eats away at the credibility of religion" doesn't that have an effect on the "free[dom] to believe about religion as they please?"

#36541: sort of buddhist — 08/19  at  09:58 PM
Of course, this creationist/ID stuff is <i>all about<> animosity. Their Jesus seems to be exclusively the one who overturned the moneychangers' tables, cursed the fig tree, and drove the swine over the cliff, or whatever that story was. Their minds seem to be forever boiling over with bile. What a terrible way to live. I sometimes feel pity for them (but I soon recover, of course).

#36543: PZ Myers — 08/19  at  10:08 PM
Showing that religious creation myths are damfool things does not interfere with anyone's right to believe in any damfool thing they want.

#36545: — 08/19  at  10:41 PM
Charlie
Three questions:

1.Did you happen to see that sticker in either Texas or Alabama?
2.What kind of person did the driver look like, besides being white?
3.Pick-up or SUV

#36546: — 08/19  at  10:45 PM
Undermining the bases of religious beliefs may not be an "interference" with anyone's "right" to believe anything they want to. Showing that religious creation myths are damfool things may not be "teaching atheism," either, strictly speaking. But neither will ever be confused with propagating the faith....

#36560: Alon Levy — 08/20  at  04:31 AM
The article's point is right, but the scare quotes and the lack of presentation of evidence that ID is really just Christian creationism in disguise make its argument very weak.

#36563: Alon Levy — 08/20  at  04:41 AM
Oh yeah, and right now I'm looking at the search results on that website for "Kennewick" and they're not good. The only caustic stuff on the website about Kennewick Man comes from just one columnist, however, though unfortunately I can't find any pro-science op-eds on that website about that subject.

#36574: — 08/20  at  07:53 AM
Go on Alon, bash the Native Americans for not following your preferred line of argument. Then you can burn them at your anti-science stake with Richard Lewontin

#36580: charlie wagner — 08/20  at  08:36 AM
Timageous wrote:

"Three questions:"

The report comes from my daughter, who lives in Congers, New York. The car was a brand new Lexus and the driver was a grey haired old lady.

#36592: Ron Sullivan — 08/20  at  10:02 AM
The folks just north of here have my favorite creation myth, because it has the best creator's comment ever.

Komokums lived under Clear Lake, and at that time Clear Lake was the whole world. One day he popped up to the surface and got bored with nothing but water all 'round to look at. He scooped up some mud from the bottom of the lake and put it on the water and started patting it, patting it, here and there. When he was patting it, it started spreading out and after a while just patting it, patting it, it spread out all over the horizons in every direction and became the world.

"Oh," said Komokums, "I didn't know it would do that."

#36595: sort of buddhist — 08/20  at  10:34 AM
This is the anti-scientists' basic principle: teaching reality must be stopped because it disturbs their peace of mind. Their peace of mind derives from their religion. Therefore, anything which undermines their religion is itself a religion.

From their point of view, of course, everything is wrapped up in their religion. Since Satan is the enemy of their God, anyone teaching something they disagree with is a tool of Satan. The idea that one could teach something because it is our best grasp, at present, of the truth, simply for the sake of truth, not because one is out to destroy society and morality and everything decent in the world, escapes them completely.

#36601: Alon Levy — 08/20  at  10:54 AM
Is it just me, Tigerbear, or is it the first time you've posted anything here since you flamed me in PZ's Lewontin thread?

#36604: eponymagain — 08/20  at  11:19 AM
That is a very nice editorial.

#36614: — 08/20  at  01:09 PM
Nope, its just you, Alon.

#36671: D Bunny — 08/20  at  10:55 PM
"...dangerous manipulation and intolerance"

Well put.

#36693: Alon Levy — 08/21  at  02:29 AM
Tigerbear, if it's just me, can you link to a comment you wrote here between the Lewontin thread and this thread?

#36712: — 08/21  at  08:45 AM
It's just you.

#36713: Alon Levy — 08/21  at  08:50 AM
Okay, so I'll concede you're doing things here other than flaming me.

#36764: — 08/21  at  02:15 PM
Jeff Chamberlain
Is "propogating the faith" really part of the remit for public schools? Which faith? What part of "separation of Curch and State" are you having problems with?