Pharyngula

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Thursday, August 11, 2005

Nightline on Intelligent Design creationism

I'm sorry to say that I missed the Nightline segment on Intelligent Design creationism, but Nick Matzke has a review (does anyone have a transcript or video capture? There is a BitTorrent here, but it isn't working for me). It sounds like they did exactly the right thing, and went to real biologists to ask them what they think of this imaginary "controversy", and they all stuck out their tongues and went "phbhththt", or some version thereof.

Of course the Discovery Institute is going insane over it. Their excuse?

Nightline's main point appears to be that there really isn't any scientific controversy over Darwinism and intelligent design. How do they know this? They checked with several Darwinists, who told them so!

Oh, dear. It sounds so circular. Only it's not correct. They checked with the chairpersons of the top ten biology departments in the country, that is, these people who manage successful biology programs with a proven track record in the subject. The people who get things done. The ones who do real, high quality research. And it turns out they all support evolution (not "Darwinism", you clueless bozos at the DI), and think Intelligent Design creationism is a useless crock.

Maybe if they'd consulted institutes that don't do research and were populated with people who have no training in biology—you know, conservative think-tanks and right-wing bible colleges—they'd have gotten a different answer. And if you ask me about the details of aerospace engineering you might also get a very different answer than if you asked someone who was, like, qualified.

Then they mangle their inappropriate analogy yet further.

Hmm. Nightline could apply this logic to a lot of other issues besides intelligent design:

To determine whether there is any debate about embryonic stem cell research, they could interview only the scientists who support such research. To determine whether there is any debate over partial-birth abortions, they could interview only proponents of partial-birth abortions. Back in the heyday of eugenics, if journalists had wanted to determine whether there was a debate about the validity of eugenics, they could have interviewed only the scientists advocating eugenics.

Hey, I know some of those people, and have talked with stem cell researchers and doctors who do abortions. That would be an interesting discussion; I can tell you what they would say.

Stem cell researchers would tell you that there is a legitimate debate over the ethics of what they are doing. They're concerned—they're working with material of a human source, after all, with consequences for human reproduction—and while they will strongly argue in favor of their work, they will recognize the validity of some of their opponent's concerns.

There are no partial-birth abortion proponents. There are also no proponents for cracking your chest open, ripping out your heart, and replacing it with someone else's. These are treatments for serious, dangerous conditions, surgeries that are done to save lives when no other alternative is available, and are done because they are necessary, not because someone thinks hacking people open is fun. They do argue over these things, though, and are always balancing concerns like the probability of success and failure, quality of post-surgical life, etc.

They do have a case in the example of eugenics. Of course, eugenics was more of a social movement than anything founded in science, and even in its heyday, if you'd polled the heads of biology departments, you would have found some dissent. What do you think would happen if you followed the Nightline methodology today, and asked today's biology chairpersons about eugenics? It would be as dead as Intelligent Design creationism.


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Comments:
#34899: — 08/11  at  08:21 AM
That Nightline episode is perhaps the only non-PBS news piece I've ever seen that actually gave ID "theory" the respect it truly deserves...



#34900: — 08/11  at  08:23 AM
There are no partial-birth abortion proponents. There are also no proponents for cracking your chest open, ripping out your heart, and replacing it with someone else's. These are treatments for serious, dangerous conditions, surgeries that are done to save lives when no other alternative is available, and are done because they are necessary, not because someone thinks hacking people open is fun.

Exactly. Terrific post.



#34901: — 08/11  at  08:24 AM

To determine whether there is any debate about embryonic stem cell research, they could interview only the scientists who support such research. To determine whether there is any debate over partial-birth abortions, they could interview only proponents of partial-birth abortions. Back in the heyday of eugenics, if journalists had wanted to determine whether there was a debate about the validity of eugenics, they could have interviewed only the scientists advocating eugenics.

It sounds like the DI is ready to acknowledge that there is no scientific controversy over IDC, only political controversy.

So; wasn't that Nightline's point?



#34904: Jim Daley — 08/11  at  08:31 AM
Cheers to Nightline! It's high time a mainstream media outlet pointed out that the "debate" exists only in the circles of ID proponents and the religious right. Morning Edition made a similar point in a report on the We're Not In Kansas Anymore School Board's new curricculum guidelines.

My housemates insist on subscribing to the Chicago Tribune, a decision to which I've been staunchly opposed ever since they endorsed Dubya for the second time around, and you wouldn't believe how often their Op-Ed page, as well as "news" reports, legitimize the nonexistent "debate within the scientific community".

Finally, a report that was intelligently designed!



#34905: Jim Daley — 08/11  at  08:36 AM
Sorry. Try link to Morning Edition story<a href="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4795205
">here.</a>

Otherwise, it can be found on NPR's href="http://www.npr.org/">Main Page</a> under "Editor's Picks."



#34907: Jim Daley — 08/11  at  08:40 AM
Apologies! I blame the early morning rain. Okay, final attempt. I'm sorry I'm mucking up the thread. Please put the previous post, and this one, if necessary, out of their misery.
Morning Edition



#34908: — 08/11  at  08:42 AM
There are no partial-birth abortion proponents. There are also no proponents for cracking your chest open, ripping out your heart, and replacing it with someone else's.

The term "partial-birth abortion" is a misnomer, apparently created during a strategy session at the Washington office at the Nat'l Conference of Catholic Bishops. As PZ implies, there is no such term in the medical vocabulary. The closest approximation is "dilation and extration" (aka D&X), a rarely-used procedure which is much more tightly defined than "pba"; the latter is a politically-originated phrase well-suited for the bait-&-switch manuevers which the anti-abortion movement has implemented with it.



#34911: — 08/11  at  09:05 AM
Arguing with supporters of IDC using facts is pointless. No fact that supports evolution will be accepted--nor will any fact that refutes IDC.

The prime directive of the conservative brain is to foster its current beliefs.

I think the only way to make your point with people like this is via analogy--like the cracking open a chest one, which I will now use whenever I can!

Granted, this approach goes against the mentality of those who are scientifically oriented. Personally I want the facts when I analyze a situation. Conservative brains don't. Conservative brains think they have all the facts they need. So our job is to rearrange the facts they have--via analogy--to get them to see things differently.



#34912: Les Lane — 08/11  at  09:16 AM
They checked with several Darwinists, who told them so!

And how does the Discovery Institute know that it is controversial? They checked with several pseudoscientists who told them so!



#34915: — 08/11  at  09:44 AM
PZ,

Lexis-Nexis doesn't have the "Nightline" transcript up yet but should later today or earlier tomorrow.

On the Lexis search page select;
1) News transcripts
2)ABC News transcripts
3) Nightline
4) Previous week



#34916: Ron Zeno — 08/11  at  09:46 AM
Nice to hear that Nightline got it right. The Discovery Institute has responded with their usual spin appealing to "fairness" and pointing out "bias", though neither of these arguments have any merit in scientific controversies. Myers' response to the Discovery Institute's spin is good, but I think there should be more like Baseyian Bouffant pointing out that their spin indicates that there is no scientific controversy, only political controversy of their own making. Scientific controversies are identified and assessed by the experts in the areas of science in question. Science is not a democratic system where all points of view are considered because of "fairness". Science is biased toward the best explanation of the current scientific evidence.



#34922: — 08/11  at  10:03 AM
Well, PZ, there's actually a twisted logic behind it all. The DI talks about the evolution "controversy" as if it is a factual question, but really to them it is a values question (though they don't admit that, of course). We can see this in their attack on Nightline. If one were asking a question about some values question or normative question, their attack would make sense. If I wanted to know "What's the best art form?" (a values question disguised as a factual one) it would make some sense to complain if those investigating the issue only asked people who study impressionist painters. Obviously they would not use the same argument about matters that they agree are factual. Do you think a DI member with heart disease would be upset if doctors at leading research hospitals were asked about the best way to help his condition? Would such a person be upset that faith healers who oppose medical science were not asked?



#34923: — 08/11  at  10:03 AM
PZ - that BitTorrent link is working for me - downloading as I type this, so I wonder why it didn't work for you. I only caught half of it last night and was glad to find the torrent this morning (I found the same one that you link to but via a different site). Anyway, if you or others have trouble downloading it, I can send you a copy of the file I download somehow.



#34928: — 08/11  at  10:22 AM
Once again, a brilliant smackdown.

And if you want to know more about the details of aerospace engineering, I can provide some help there.



#34936: Dan Kohn — 08/11  at  10:53 AM
The torrent link you gave worked fine for me (thanks). I highly recommend the BitTorrent client Azureus <http://azureus.sourceforge.net/index.php>. If it's really not working for you, I can put the file on my website and send you a private link (just email me). Thanks for a great site.



#34938: — 08/11  at  10:58 AM
So did any of the scientists interviewed mention anything about the Discovery Institute and the fact that this fundamentalist-financed conservative propaganda machine is the sole source of the "controversy" that the media plays into?



#34940: — 08/11  at  11:06 AM
Coincidental of you to mention aerospace engineering. This week a pro-ID letter to the local paper, babbling that evolution wasn't testable, people should read Darwin's Black Box, etc etc, was written by some retard in NCSU's aerospace engineering dept.



#34942: — 08/11  at  11:19 AM
I just finished watching the downloaded Nightline episode, and have to say it is really very good - one of the best mainstream media coverages of this topic, which is why the DI is so upset about it. The episode is titled Doubting Darwin and Ted Koppel introduces it with the subtitle: The Marketing of Intelligent Design - and goes on to say that this is a political debate, not a scientific one.

The first part is an excellent report by Chris Bury covering their survey of the top-10 Biology departments, interviews with several biologists, and a good deal about the origin, agenda, and marketing methodology of DI.

Having settled the question of "teaching the controversy" with a resounding "There is no controversy", Koppel then turns to the political debate, which is also very good, especially because they pit two conservatives against one another. I thought this was really brilliant, and much better than other shows where they try debates between liberal vs conservative, or IDiot vs Biologist - what better way to illustrate that there is no scientific controversy, but that this is all political, and part of a broader agenda that goes well beyond evolution.

I notice that the Nightline website <http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline> does have a streaming video posted now, but it doesn't seem to be working for me. They also have a couple of decent articles there and some links. As I said before, I've downloaded the torrent successfully, and would be happy to post it on a website, or mail a CD to anyone having trouble downloading the torrent.



#34944: — 08/11  at  11:21 AM
Oh, and in response to Great White Wonder - Bury's entire report demonstrated that this is all entirely due to DI marketing and propaganda, without really needing any scientist to say so!



#34946: — 08/11  at  11:37 AM
"Bury's entire report demonstrated that this is all entirely due to DI marketing and propaganda, without really needing any scientist to say so!"

Scientists do need to say so. Everyone needs to say so. Loudly. Clearly. Repetitively.

I'm happy to hear that Nightline aired this report. However, if I'm not mistaken, Nightline is broadcast in the middle of the night when most people are asleep by a major network which most rubes will tell you is "liberally biased."

In other words, "ker-plink."

Scientists who agree to speak before TV cameras should not assume that the television program is going to do the work for them. They need to get their facts straight and they need to know what the heck the frigging deal is and they need to tell it like it is so any dimtwit can understand. Among other things, this means that terms like "neo-creationism" should never be used.



#34953: — 08/11  at  12:49 PM
Grreat White Wonder - I agree with you completely, and didn't mean to imply that Nightline's coverage meant we scientists don't have to do our part to expose/stop DI. It was just refreshing to have at least one of the mainstream media programs call the BS themselves, without resorting to any false "balance" by merely providing equal opportunity mouthpieces to both sides. It was quite clear what Nightline thought of the whole thing, and that is worth noting, despite the liberal bias and late-night airtime.



#34959: BC — 08/11  at  02:10 PM
In a totally unrelated story, geo-centrists became very angry when Nightline asked leading astrophysicists about the solar-centric versus geo-centric models. The leading astrophysicists said that geo-centrism has no scientific merit. Geo-centrists quickly rebutted, "Nightline's main point appears to be that there really isn't any scientific controversy over geocentrism and solarcentrism. How do they know this? They checked with several solarcentrists, who told them so!"



#34967: — 08/11  at  03:14 PM
I like the point made by Oolong about medicine vs. faith healing. More emphasis needs to be placed on the fact that modern medicine assumes evolution.

Also, biopharma involves big bucks. Their lobbying arms - BIO and PHRMA come to mind - should be forced into this discussion. Their web sites yield no hits when searched for intelligent design - aren't they concerned about this anti-science and technology trend? Anyone out there a member of either org?



#34971: Matt West — 08/11  at  03:33 PM
Though I am no fan of George Will's economic pontifications, my respect for him did jump up a few points. "Science is not just openness, but an openness to testable hypotheses." I think thats one of the best comments by a conservative on this issue yet to date.



#34972: — 08/11  at  03:39 PM
Can you provide any evidence for your assertion that there are no elective late term abortions?

Dr. Martin Haskell, for example, an expert on the procedure who came up with the term D and E, has said "And I'll be quite frank: most of my abortions are elective in that 20-24 week range. . . . In my particular case, probably 20% [of this procedure] are for genetic reasons. And the other 80% are purely elective."



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