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Tuesday, August 23, 2005

NYT: Two strikes, one ball

Updated below.

Very few people seemed to like the NYT article I panned yesterdayBrad DeLong, Brian Leiter, Newton's Binomium, and Cosmic Variance have all chimed in, I think Abnormal Interests gives the best analysis of the flaws, and Mike the Mad Biologist has inside information that will show Behe to be wrong, again…not that that will perturb him in the least. EvolutionBlog has a more positive but preliminary view of the article, we'll have to look forward to his more detailed defense.

So now the NY Times has come out with a third article in their series.

I didn't like it.

Surprised? It may not be as bad as the first two, but it's largely irrelevant and plays right into the hands of the Discovery Institute by pandering to the religious biases of readers. It's titled "Scientists Speak Up on Mix of God and Science", and that's exactly where the creationists want to place the issue in the minds of the public: as a conflict between gods and science. They know which way the uninformed will flop.

On the positive side, the article spends most of its time on Collins and Miller, two very well known scientists who are also Christian, and makes the case that you can be religious and be a scientist. That's good, in that it undermines one common creationist lie.

However, it also reinforces a bias that there is something deplorable about atheist scientists—once again, they are the wicked little boogeymen shooed out of the spotlight, lest they frighten the good christian folk. They trot out the old 1997 Nature survey and emphasize that 40% of scientists believe in God…which is fine, but leaves hanging the complementary observation, that 60% don't. What we need is an article with the spine to note that, in the scientific community, atheists work productively with theists side by side, with no conflict and no animosity over their different views on religion, and that maybe it's the bigots who think atheism is evil who need to correct their attitudes. I don't care that Collins and Miller are religious—their virtue is their tolerance, something the creationists could emulate.

Well, their tolerance is good, but their religiosity does screw them up sometimes. I thought this conclusion was weak:

But he [Collins] said he believed that some scientists were simply unwilling to confront the big questions religion tried to answer. "You will never understand what it means to be a human being through naturalistic observation," he said. "You won't understand why you are here and what the meaning is. Science has no power to address these questions—and are they not the most important questions we ask ourselves?"

Grrr. The old "atheists are afraid of god" nonsense. I would just like to point out that religion has no power to address those questions, either—it's a palliative that deludes people into believing they have the answers. All too often, the answer they get back is to kill the unbelievers, not the kind of benevolent inspiration I suspect Collins is imagining.

I will say that this readers' opinion piece today, "Grasping the Depth of Time as a First Step in Understanding Evolution", was excellent (Josh agrees). Maybe what the Times needs to do is fire their journalists as tainted goods and start from scratch with a few more competent outsiders.


EvolutionBlog defends Chang's article. I'm not convinced. The gist of the argument is that Chang did bring up rebuttals to many of the creationists' points; I agree, but don't believe that that rescues the article. The problem is that those rebuttals are buried, weakly expressed, and expressed in the form, "The DI says X, but scientists say Y." I already know all the weak points in the DI's feeble arguments, and they've been said over and over again. What we need is a clear, forceful destruction of the DI's position by a credible media source. The NYT did not provide that. It provided more cover for them.


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Comments:
#37076: coturnix — 08/23  at  08:55 AM
Ooooh - that letter is GOOD! How did they let a reader write something so long?



's avatar #37081: Chris Clarke — 08/23  at  09:20 AM
First step: Sell Gina Kolata to Crichton's ghost-writing team.

"I do not think we should antagonize the religious when it is not warranted, though I think we should be willing to do so whenever it is.”
-- Glen Davidson



#37082: — 08/23  at  09:22 AM
You will never understand what it means to be a human being through naturalistic observation... You won't understand why you are here and what the meaning is... And are they not the most important questions?
How could comprehending the biological/physical mechanisms that create and sustain life not lead one to a greater understanding of why (how) humans are here, and their role position in the natural evolution of the cosmos?

Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

-Jerry Garcia



's avatar #37083: — 08/23  at  09:24 AM
It's not a reader's opinion piece; Verlyn Klinkenborg is a regular writer for the Times.

And I thought the Cornelia Dean piece was pretty innocuous. You really shouldn't get your hopes up, PZ; the Times is never going to come out with a piece that straightforwardly states the case for atheism. This is as good as it gets.



#37084: — 08/23  at  09:33 AM
In a fine example of what would incur cries for heavy-handed, one-sided prattle in any graduate journalism program, the August 20th op-ed, "The Golf Gene" by John Tierney, showcases the NYTimes continuing struggles in science competence. Such unchecked bias on a controversial topic, even in "view-point journalism", is nothing but sloppy, uncritical, reckless reporting. Not once in the article does Tierney evoke developmental biology.

Though without actually defining a gene, Tierney fearlessly heaps mystical powers and attributes to this ultimately abstract term.

Can I get a "G", can I get an "E" can I get an "N" can I get another "E", Yay, go genes, genes, genes.

Without a breath of hisitation or a single caveat, Tierney's all encompassing genes are responsible for a "common vision of what makes a beautiful landscape", and that peculiar "fascination with hitting targets" (for males anyway). And all this is made possible via a vague shot-out to "Darwin's Natural Heir", E.O. Wilson. And so Tierney must conclude "that's the only plausible excuse for watching golf...a primal affection for the vistas of fairways."

For increasing dissonance among your readers, F.
For making me feel better about my chances of one day writing for the Times, B+



#37091: — 08/23  at  10:28 AM
As an agnostic (like Darwin and Huxley), I've always found theism and atheism (in the sense of a belief that God does not exist) to be equally without supporting evidence. But, hey, I'm willing to admit that even atheists can be good scientists.
Here's what Huxley wrote:
"When I reached intellectual maturity, and began to ask myself whether I was an atheist, a theist, or a pantheist; a materialist or an idealist; a Christian or a freethinker, I found that the more I learned and reflected, the less ready was the answer; until at last I came to the conclusion that I had neither art nor part with any of these denominations, except the last. The one thing in which most of these good people were agreed was the one thing in which I differed from them. They were quite sure that they had attained a certain 'gnosis' -- had more or less successfully solved the problem of existence; while I was quite sure I had not, and had a pretty strong conviction that the problem was insoluble. And, with Hume and Kant on my side, I could not think myself presumptuous in holding fast by that opinion."
"Agnosticism, in fact, is not a creed, but a method, the essence of which lies in the rigorous application of a single principle. That principle is of great antiquity; it is as old as Socrates; as old as the writer who said, 'Try all things, hold fast by that which is good'; it is the foundation of the Reformation, which simply illustrated the axiom that every man should be able to give a reason for the faith that is in him, it is the great principle of Descartes; it is the fundamental axiom of modern science. Positively the principle may be expressed: In matters of the intellect, follow your reason as far as it will take you, without regard to any other consideration. And negatively: In matters of the intellect, do not pretend that conclusions are certain which are not demonstrated or demonstrable. That I take to be the agnostic faith, which if a man keep whole and undefiled, he shall not be ashamed to look the universe in the face, whatever the future may have in store for him."



#37100: — 08/23  at  11:12 AM
The Dean article looked like another attempt at 'fair and balanced' reporting, giving approximately equal time to 'both sides'.

I did like in paragraph 6 when Creationism and ID were clearly delineated from science-compatible forms of theism.

The percentage of scientists who are believers was mentioned, but it would have made sense to contrast this to the general population.

Also, believing scientists are "beginning" to speak out? It's been going on for ages. Can't get them to shut up.



#37102: Dan S. — 08/23  at  11:20 AM
'in the scientific community, atheists work productively with theists side by side, with no conflict and no animosity over their different views on religion"

That's the nifty thing about science - people of any religion (or none) can do it, people of any religion (or none) can learn about it, and people of any religion (etc.) can benefit from it equally.

Nice science . . .



#37104: — 08/23  at  11:33 AM
Interesting how no mention is made in the New York Times articles of the nontheistic religions, such as Buddhism, that develop systems of morality and values without reference to a creator or designer. Religion in these articles is equated with the monotheisms that arose in the Middle East. (True, adherents to these faiths comprise the vast majority of the American public.)

My favorite bumbersticker about agnosticism:
Militant Agnostic: I Don't Know and Neither Do You!



#37108: ekzept — 08/23  at  11:37 AM
what i missed in the Times piece, if it were a piece of investigation is an analysis of the motives of those embracing ID and those of the Discovery Institute as well as their funders. instead, the author and editors seemed to come from "Oh dear, these people are at it again, and because there are debates about education in the states, we'd better write something about this." if the opinions of the commonplace ID advocate or creationist are heard, some of them commenting here, there's a belief that there exists a "big science" conspiracy to impose materialist thinking on youth and rob them of their religious and spiritual values. there's a belief that conspiracy involves falsifying results and is enforced by denying competing ideas space in scientific journals through peer review. the same kind of feelings seem to lurk among people who are on the doubting side of global warming and its implications for climate.

there is also a sideline issue dealing with something that's been spoken of here, a feeling some of the public have that scientists are impractical elitists. while i think that's existed as long as there have been scientists, the public seems not to be able to fathom the sheer amount of knowledge and skill needed to complete a course in the natural sciences emerging with a doctorate. from people i know who have both medical degrees and science degrees or law degrees and science degrees, they feel the science degree is far harder to achieve. a regular problem for departments in the physical sciences such as at Harvard is that students enroll with the intent of majoring then, once they see the workload and the relatively low workload of those not in science, they switch majors away from physical science, often into business or economics or finance. if Knowing Stuff is part of what's needed to properly do and evaluate scientific work, well, that's kind of Tough Cookies for people who don't know the stuff. is that "elitism"? it's a proper kind of elitism for PZ or anyone to berate me (not that they ever have) when i talk about stuff i don't know anything about, like biology, being a physics-computer sort of guy, but if someone spouts claims coming from ignorance and they get criticized and, when they continue unabated, berated, that's hardly "elitism".

those issues weren't addressed in these articles at all, since they started with the spiffied-up spokespeople for ID and creationism, Behe and his ilk. and there are big issues here the articles missed. we have this idea in democracies or democratic republics that because everyone can vote, they are, simply based upon their opinion, qualified to understand all the issues they are voting on. never mind that they don't prep up on the issues before voting. never mind they have done poorly in math, statistics, and science so the policy issues are beyond them. (this is not a scientist complaining as expected: the public does not understand the difference between a radiological weapon and a nuclear bomb, and that has serious implications for management of terrorist threats.) so, if they defer knowing stuff to "experts" and weighing their opinions, they don't necessarily know how to tell charlatans apart from the people who know stuff. media is supposed to do some of that for them. the Times didn't. the Times used to have excellent science education columns, and in-depth presentations of important science matters. no longer. i can imagine an editor responding "The public doesn't want it any more, advertisers don't want to pay for it". well, where is the Times journalistic duty?



#37116: — 08/23  at  11:51 AM

#37104: David Lewin — 08/23 at 11:33 AM
Interesting how no mention is made in the New York Times articles of the nontheistic religions, such as Buddhism, that develop systems of morality and values without reference to a creator or designer...

So write a letter to the editor!



#37127: — 08/23  at  12:24 PM
Per my comment on the Aug. 22 NYT story, I have confirmed the trilobite photo used on the jump page of that article is one of the same photos used in the Dec. 1987 SCIENCE TIMES story on the confirmation of gradualistic evolution in the Welsh AMPYX trilobite illustrated. So eminent a scientific heavyweight as the late John Noble Wilford weighed in at SCIENCE TIMES with an analysis of this confirmation of slow evolution of a higher animal and celebrated the result. As I recall the story appeared in the SCIENCE TIMES section on the front page above the fold. Wilford is spinning in his grave. Is the TIMES ready to sell out? Any bets that journalist Chang took a baby science course or two in college only as a way to meet distribution or core requirements for graduation? I don't want to trash the guy if his editor controlled the spin, but c'mon, this is the good grey (strike that, colorful) TIMES here. Travesties like this are not supposed to happen in the TIMES. And kudoes, by the way, to that sleeping giant, the WASHINGTON POST, for holding the line against intelligent design in its editorial meanderings and for turning its jaundiced eye on this silly-season outbreak of religious nuttery. Speaking of silly season, Pat Robertson is now advocating international political assasination be part of the American foreign-policy toolbox. Bush and Reagan set these folks loose, and getting them back into their churches where they can do not harm will be like unto herding cats.



#37130: — 08/23  at  12:31 PM
I think Miller's type of "religious intrumentalism" is very illustrative of the harm even moderate belief does to society, as evidenced by this quote,

"I don't care if you believe in the Krebs cycle," he said, referring to the process by which energy is utilized in the cell. "I just want you to know what it is and how it works. My feeling about evolution is the same thing."

For Dr. Miller and other scientists, research is not about belief. "Faith is one thing, what you believe from the heart," said Joseph E. Murray, who won the Nobel Prize in medicine in 1990 for his work in organ transplantation. But in scientific research, he said, "it's the results that count."


Besides making me throw up into my mouth a little, note that you can only hold this position as long as science has no currency outside of science. Science becomes a game. As soon as science influences politics, society, or - God forbid! - ethics, it's going to come up against these guys beliefs again. The fact is, you can only hold these kinds of beliefs as long as science holds a low position in society.

We see the problem with this every day: in politics, scientific facts can be accepted or rejected according to the judgement of ideology and opinion; ideology takes precedence over fact. Why? Because these guys want to keep visiting the cute little house with the steeple. Because that's the result of filling society with ideas like "two different kinds of truth" and "non-overlapping magisteria" and "it's the results that count."



#37143: — 08/23  at  02:07 PM
As an agnostic (like Darwin and Huxley), I've always found theism and atheism (in the sense of a belief that God does not exist) to be equally without supporting evidence.

Quite right, but let's be clear that most atheist are atheists in the sense that they simply lack belief in a deity. And, just to be really annoying, let me point out that there's no evidence that 'the existence or non-existence of god is unknowable' as many dictionaries define agnosticism.

wink



#37146: — 08/23  at  02:17 PM
I've long said that Miller's brand of thinking is marginally dishonest.


It's dual mindedness. And I like him and what he does for the most part. But I do tire of seeing him as the poster boy everytime they need a religious person who knows about evolution. He's overexposed.

grin



#37155: — 08/23  at  02:37 PM

#37130: poke — 08/23 at 12:31 PM
I think Miller's type of "religious intrumentalism" is very illustrative of the harm even moderate belief does to society


Yeah, this bothered me too. Maybe a student can pass Miller's class by regurgitating answers without believing them, but science is not the same as a science classroom. Research involves making choices. How can someone know where to look for answers if they don't even believe the basic facts of what they're investigating? How can they even formulate the right questions? Seems like pretty lousy teaching to me.



#37158: — 08/23  at  02:42 PM
I suppose what galls me about 'agnostic' is that it assumes we need a special category of 'belief' for the problem of disproving a negative about the supernatural, specifically applied to the idea of *god*. As with 'god', I can't categorically 'prove' that lucky numbers don't exist, or that leprechauns never existed, either, yet 'leprechaunism' or 'aleprechaunism' or 'don't know whether leprechauns leprechauns exist or not' don't seem to be categories of belief that we need to devote new words to.

How does 'god' differ from leprechauns except that we've posited greater magical powers for -- and done way more killing in the name of -- the former than the latter?



#37194: mtw — 08/23  at  06:19 PM
As for the recommendation that the Times fire some of its journalists and bring in outsiders, doesn't Carl Zimmer regularly write science pieces for the NY-Times. Would it not be sensible to have someone who clearly has a understanding of a variety of scientific issues to cover something concerning science? Isn't that what the science community is asking? There are good science journalists out that like Zimmer and the oft mentioned Chris Mooney. There have to be others out there somewhere. My gut is that this is more Times editorial spinelessness, though He said/she said from journalists does not make the situation any better.



#37225: ekzept — 08/23  at  09:02 PM
on this whole ID thing, i think people really ought to have a careful look at what is apparently the ideological cornerstone of the ID business, Dembski's
The Design Inference, Cambridge University Press, 1999, ISBN 0-521-62387-1
i have just ordered a copy of the thing myself. but i've also dug out Peter Milne's review in Brit. J. Phil. Sci. 52 (2001), 801-808. Milne finds several warts.



Trackback: Is Evolution and God-Belief Compatible? Tracked on: StructuredThought (65.19.157.20) at 2005 08 24 00:22:36
There is an interesting article in today's New York Times called Scientists Speak Up on Mix of God and Science (registration required).It somewhat addresses the difficulty in mixing religion and science exemplified by this quote: "Can you be a good...



#37245: — 08/24  at  12:39 AM
Grrr. The old "atheists are afraid of god" nonsense. I would just like to point out that religion has no power to address those questions, either—it's a palliative that deludes people into believing they have the answers.


I was peeved by the bit you're responding to here, as well. Except, in my case, I wanted to grumble about the fact that if people really wanted to pursue the answers to questions science isn't capable of answering, they should try reading a little philosophy some time instead of always leaving it up to some cop-out 'higher power.'

<voiceover>Next time on Wishful Thinking...</voiceover>



#37347: — 08/24  at  03:26 PM
Well, at least the occasional journalist is willing to dig at least a little more deeply beneath the surface. Here's a Seattle Times reporter who decided to talk to one of the scientists who signed the Discovery Institute's list of supporters:
>http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002450329_danny24.html
This particular scientist had had some second thoughts, partly stimulated, of all people, by his minister, and the Times reporter tees things up nicely.



#37349: — 08/24  at  03:36 PM
I should add that Jason Spaceman over on a Panda's Thumb thread was the first to spot this article from a "good" Times reporter, not me (even though I live in Seattle, I take the other paper--better comics!).



Trackback: On the Media on ID Tracked on: Unscrewing The Inscrutable (72.9.255.186) at 2005 08 30 10:40:32
NPR's "On the Media" had a segment about the difficulty of fairly portraying science-vs.-pseudoscience debates -- how to not legitimize the non-science position while still covering the story. I think they got the science right in this piece at least, a



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