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Wednesday, September 07, 2005

Oblivious creationists

Dembski tells a little story. It's a very sad story, revealing in its false premises, yet the sycophants at that weblog think it insightful and true.

A rabbi and a scientist were traveling together on an airplane. Each brought with them a grandson. The rabbi’s grandson came every few minutes to check on his grandfather’s welfare and inquire as to his needs, while the scientists’ grandson sat in back watching the movie, never once coming forward. The scientist asked the rabbi why his grandson was so profoundly respectful, whereas the scientists’ grandson had forgotten that his grandfather was even alive. The rabbi replied, “In our tradition, God gave the Torah to Moses at Sinai, and the closer you are to that great moment of revelation and truth, the more respect you deserve. Hence, my grandson accords me respect. But as an evolutionist, you believe that mankind begins in a primordial soup, and becomes ever more complex and developed with the passage of time. Every successive generation moves further away from its primate ancestors. Hence, your grandson believes he is your superior and that you should be respecting him. [[As told by one of my colleagues.]]

My first thought: what the hell is wrong with that rabbi? Why does he need to be checked on every few minutes? One commenter tells a variant of the story, with this strangely solicitous grandson taking the rabbi's shoes off and bringing him homemade sandwiches. Why can't the old geezer kick off his own shoes and carry his own damn sandwiches?

My second thought was for the rabbi's grandson. Doesn't he have anything better to do? Fussing over his grandfather is a waste of both their time—pointless, frequent inquiries about the old guy are unproductive. It's bizarre behavior that might be appealing to a petty tyrant, but not to a grandparent who respects the boy's autonomy.

What about the scientist's grandson? There are a lot of strange assumptions here. Leaving someone alone is not disrespectful, nor does it mean they've forgotten someone is alive. My kids don't need to hover over me to show their love and concern, and I don't need them to change my footwear for me to show they care.

The rabbi's explanation of the differences in behavior makes no sense at all, and I'm surprised that Dembski would think it at all meaningful. As a biologist with some knowledge of evolutionary history, I find the caricature of progressive evolution, where each succeeding generation is supposed to think itself better than the last, absurd. I see each individual as an example of variation; not better, but different, and each equally deserving of respect. And that belief goes right back to the stem of the tree of common descent. The whole passage is indicative of a thorough misunderstanding of evolution.

On the other hand, the rabbi's explanation also seems to express a disrespect for his progeny—he is superior to them because he was born earlier, and they deserve to serve him hand and foot.

What do we learn from this parable? That creationists are ignorant of our ideas, and willing to impose uncharitable and false expectations on us. It's sad and unknowing.

Speaking of unknowing, the ignorant creationist Homonculus at RedState.org continues his pitiful efforts. First it was a series of invalid definitions, and now it's an attempt to associate evolution with that horrid, wicked philosophy, atheism.

Twentieth century British atheist Bertrand Russell wrote extensively about how science had presented humanity with a world view that was "purposeless" and "void of meaning" in his book "Why I Am Not a Christian" (1957). Russell ominously states:

"That man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and beliefs are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labors of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspriation, all the noonday brightness of human genius are destined to extinction...that the whole temple of man's achievement must inevitably be buried--all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy which rejects them can hope to stand. Only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul's habitation henceforth be safely built".

Such is the zero-sum existence of life as postulated by neo-Darwinian evolutionary theory. Darwinism makes as a first priority atheistic principles of metaphysics rather than the pure empricism of pure science. As such, we find a theory of macro-evolution that is flawed from its foundations. At the same time, proponents of evolution dismiss Intelligent Design theory as not only "not science" (based on their own biased definition of terms) but as religion. One pundit dismissed ID as "Creationism in a cheap tuxedo". Yet it is ID, not Darwinism, that "follows where the evidence leads", without biased premises designed to yield the results the practitioners desire.

Evolution is not atheism, OK? Nor is evolution Darwinism. You can believe in a god and practice good science; biology is a secular discipline that ignores deities and says nothing one way or the other about their existence, other than that they are not a component of good hypotheses about the material world. In the same way, we do not criticize auto repair because it involves good solid material objects like grease and oil and bolts and pistons and drive trains—mechanics are free to believe in god or not, and all that matters to us is that they don't pretend that prayer is a substitute for an oil change. Equating biology with atheism is a red herring, an attempt to take a cheap and unjustified shot at sliming a scientific discipline with that odious atheism stuff that the writer knows his superstitious audience will find repugnant.

The linkage is invalid, but so is the slander against atheism. Atheism is not nihilism, it is not despair, it is not some bleak philosophy of futility and death and nonexistence. As in Dembski's little story, we see again a profound blindness to the actual beliefs of their opponents. In that passage above, Russell is saying that we need to build our perceptions on a framework of reality, not delusions—we are mortal, we are a small part of the cosmos, we are made of carbon and hydrogen and oxygen and nitrogen and phosphorus. This is the foundation for the appreciation of real beauty, a grandeur that makes biblical tripe look petty and worthless. Read further into Russell and you'll find a positive atheism that looks deeper and farther forward.

We want to stand upon our own feet and look fair and square at the world -- its good facts, its bad facts, its beauties, and its ugliness; see the world as it is and be not afraid of it. Conquer the world by intelligence and not merely by being slavishly subdued by the terror that comes from it. The whole conception of a God is a conception derived from the ancient oriental despotisms. It is a conception quite unworthy of free men. When you hear people in church debasing themselves and saying that they are miserable sinners, and all the rest of it, it seems contemptible and not worthy of self-respecting human beings. We ought to stand up and look the world frankly in the face. We ought to make the best we can of the world, and if it is not so good as we wish, after all it will still be better than what these others have made of it in all these ages. A good world needs knowledge, kindliness, and courage; it does not need a regretful hankering after the past or a fettering of the free intelligence by the words uttered long ago by ignorant men. It needs a fearless outlook and a free intelligence. It needs hope for the future, not looking back all the time toward a past that is dead, which we trust will be far surpassed by the future that our intelligence can create.

That's potent stuff. Biology is not dependent on an atheistic worldview by any means, but at the same time, those of us who practice both biology and atheism do not bring any shame to the former, much as the creationists like to act as if it does.

I don't think I need to address his ludicrous claim that ID "follows where the evidence leads"; if that were true, he would have presented some evidence for Intelligent Design creationism. No ID proponent ever has.


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Comments:
#39259: Mandos — 09/07  at  11:30 PM
I think this is a cultural thing here. A lot of us (dunno about Dembski) come from backgrounds where elderly people do indeed expect to be waited on hand and foot. I notice in some more traditional circles a certain amount of...looking-down-osity for modernist Western culture where elder people are not treated with the same deference and attentiveness. So your critique of Dembski can be taken as less of a critique of his analogy and more of a critique of his cultural predilections (if indeed these are his). Alas, that was his point (correct or not): these virtuous behaviours are encouraged by creationism and diminished by "scientism".



#39261: — 09/07  at  11:35 PM
Those creationists sure know their audience. The straw man of the good grandson who considered his grampa superior vs. the bad grandson who "considered himself superior" strikes a chord in the hearts of those frightened and repulsed by change. In so-called "conservatives'" world view, everything would be fine and dandy if we could all magically turn back the calendar to a mythical golden age in the past, when children all respected their elders and personal hygiene was effortless and all beings lived in harmony. This story doesn't have to make sense or be logical; all it has to do is to stroke the idiots' sense of "gee, wish we could all go back to the 1950s/13th century/Garden of Eden/[insert some other mythical wonderful past here]". It's like abortion pictures: they're not true, but they get the morons to vote.



#39262: — 09/07  at  11:44 PM
Where to direct my anger? At the part where a Rabbi's grandson shows repsect and that is used to advance a ridiculous cause? The fact that by using a Rabbi in the story it will feed some of the loons on the far left more anti-Semitic ammo. The use of the term evolutionist. What a jackass.



#39263: Reed A. Cartwright — 09/07  at  11:59 PM
's recent diary starts out so coherently:

1st para: Schools have been teaching "darwinism" for many years and students have been lapping it up without question.

2nd para: Students' parents don't know much about "darwinism".

So did the parents never go to school when they were students?



#39264: — 09/08  at  12:02 AM
Ah, but this can't be the explanation. You see, the japanese highly respect their elderly, despite the fact that, according to "Dr." Kent Hovind, shintoism is based on evolution.



#39265: Martha — 09/08  at  12:34 AM
What a great story... Though, by that logic, those physically closer to Sinai should be respected more, since they are actually closer (in space-time) to the event with Moses and the Torah. Perhaps the scientist's grandson was at the back of a westard moving plane.

Also, doesn't this imply that the scientist grandfather was showing his superiorly evolved grandson a great deal of disrespect? It didn't sound like the scientist even vistted his morlock grandson once, let alone cared for his footwear.

Finally, as someone who has disrespected elders since before I could speak, I have to say that feeling evolutionarily superior to them has never really been a motivation for my impudence. Likewise, their generational proximity to holy events has never encouraged me to bring old people sandwiches despite being raised in a religious environment. All in all, I give Dembski's story a D- for being so easily made fun of.



#39266: — 09/08  at  12:39 AM
what you fail consistently to understand is that unlike vulgar methodological materialists (so-called "scientists") ID'ers know the mind of God: they see design in function because they are privy to His intentions -- nothing is a mystery to these people -- and can prove it mathematically.



#39267: — 09/08  at  12:52 AM
I posted a comment a couple days ago on DEmbski's blog pointing out that the parable is based upon the misconception (among others) upon a misconception of evolution: that succession implies superiority.

Post: blocked.
Username: banned.
Dembski: intellectual coward.



#39268: bcpmoon — 09/08  at  01:15 AM
When the elder is respected for being closer to the revelation in time, and now some 4000 years after the fact this still causes excessive looking after the elders, would the respect be steadily rising if you go back in time? Was the rabbi looking after his father in shorter intervals? Were the first generations enshrined and glorified as god-like for having been so close to god?
On the other hand, as time passes, does the respect fizzle away in the future because the difference between the 600th and 601st generation is negligible?
On more point: Isn“t the son really respectful of the rabbi as a person, as his elder? Or is he just a groupie, trying to be close to someone who close to somebody famous (in this case god)?



#39269: — 09/08  at  01:17 AM
The stuff over at Red State is really egregious. Homonculous (and a few other ignoramuses over there) seem to be trying to argue 'philosophy' against science... i.e. they don't get the science, so they spew some ridiculous pseudo-philosophy back.

I love trolling, and I would *love* to debate those guys about the philosophy they think gives their ideas credence, but alas, I'd have to register.

Particularly egregious, I think, is the claim that the observed success of the Big Bang theory somehow provides evidence for the existence of some higher being. There's queer notion of 'evidence' at work in that. I guess by now I should be aware that your average ID-er has no idea what that word means...



#39270: bcpmoon — 09/08  at  01:46 AM
Correction: It should say:
Is the son really respectful of the rabbi as a person, as his elder?



#39271: — 09/08  at  02:15 AM
Dembski left out one important detail: that rabbi was from Chelm.



#39273: — 09/08  at  03:07 AM
1. Why were the grandsons banished to the back in the first place? Most airlines attempt to place families together. It suggests the Rabbi had already designated his grandson as inferior and the scientist had designated his as independent.

2. I don't believe the scientist would have asked the question of the Rabbi phrased that way at all!

3. The Rabbi's grandson might have been continually coming past in the hope the Rabbi had died.

4. The scientist's grandson might have known his grandparent had some important papers to read/write and was being much more respectful than the Rabbi's in not continually bothering him.

5. The airline staff might have been annoyed by the continual toing and froing (Chinese airline staff definitely would!) and would have suggested a seat change or that the boy be told to stay where he was and be given something more amusing to do than play with his grandfather's feet (the Chinese staff would have plied him with packs of peanuts and drinks and found him some magazines and a little bag of useful mementos).



#39276: Alon Levy — 09/08  at  04:49 AM
Oh yeah, stories... if I tell a story about how creationists use ID as a wedge to defund science and then claim that what is left supports their agenda, so that the USA adopts their agenda and becomes a totalitarian theocracy, can I tout it as an example of how bad religion is?



#39277: — 09/08  at  05:04 AM
Did anyone else noticed that Dumbski actually admitted to censoring comments?

Whatever happened to "teach both sides"? The irony kills me.



#39278: — 09/08  at  05:27 AM
Oh, and then this chestnut from comment #18 at the same link:

"I find the vast majority of Darwinists incapable of giving ID the time of day necessary to adequately or objectively respond to it".



#39279: Arun — 09/08  at  05:38 AM
Bertrand Russell:
"That man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving;


The language sort of implies the causes have volition; but agreed;

that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and beliefs are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms;


overly reductionistic; man's hopes, fears, loves, beliefs are not derived from his origin, for instance; accidental here has to mean "not pre-determined", these collocations are heavily constrained by the laws of physics/chemistry; generally agreed;

that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave;


agreed;

that all the labors of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspriation, all the noonday brightness of human genius are destined to extinction...


but this is also part of virtually every theology as well; agreed;



that the whole temple of man's achievement must inevitably be buried--all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy which rejects them can hope to stand.


Agreed.


Only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul's habitation henceforth be safely built".


"On the firm foundation of unyielding despair" ????? -- rubbish!!!!!!!!!!
I grow roses. It is the seasonal and transitory nature of the flower that holds charm; one soon stops noticing the relative permanence of artificial flowers. I am temporary, the rose bush is temporary, the roses are temporary. I see no foundation for "unyielding despair" in this. This above immediately, for me, causes Russell to be classified as a crank. (I also blame him for having written one of the worst introductions to Einstein's theory of relativity, ever.) If IDists stomp all over him, more power to them.



#39281: charlie wagner — 09/08  at  06:05 AM
Paul wrote:

"mechanics are free to believe in god or not, and all that matters to us is that they don't pretend that prayer is a substitute for an oil change."

Since doctors are mechanics of the human body, they diagnose illness, perform surgery and dispense medications, am I to infer from this that you've changed your mind about creationists not being qualified to be doctors? All that should matter to us is that they don't pretend that prayer is a subsitute for blood pressure medication or insulin.



#39282: Antinome — 09/08  at  06:07 AM
"But as an evolutionist, you believe that mankind begins in a primordial soup, and becomes ever more complex and developed with the passage of time. Every successive generation moves further away from its primate ancestors. Hence, your grandson believes he is your superior and that you should be respecting him."

Isn't this exactly what proponents of intelligent design believe: that God (oh excuse me: "somebody") is making changes over time to reach a specific purpose. We have no way of knowing that the purpose has been reached and for all we know the son has been tweaked as that "somebody's" plan. Therefore isnt the son closer to the ideal.

The son is "obviously" disrespectful because he is an proponent of ID as opposed to undirected evolution.

This seems to be a fight between creationists who think man is descending as part of God's plan and ID'ers who think he is ascending.

As an aside, my behaviour towards my grandparents were based on my love and respect for them, not they were closer to God than me.



#39283: charlie wagner — 09/08  at  06:21 AM
Paul wrote:

"I don't think I need to address his ludicrous claim that ID "follows where the evidence leads"; if that were true, he would have presented some evidence for Intelligent Design creationism. No ID proponent ever has."

What the hell have *I* been doing for the last 5 years?
Have you not heard a word I've said?
Choosing to ignore the evidence (much of which you yourself have presented right here) will not make it go away.

You *can* be an atheist and still invokee intelligent design. They are NOT mutually exclusive.



#39284: — 09/08  at  06:33 AM
What the hell have *I* been doing for the last 5 years?


We don't know, but you certainly haven't presented any evidence for Intelligent Design Creationism.

Have you not heard a word I've said?


I can't answer for anyone else, but none of the words you've written here, that I've read, have included any evidence for ID Creationism.

Choosing to ignore the evidence (much of which you yourself have presented right here) will not make it go away.


Finally! You've realized it, and have given up on the Intelligent Design Creationism and followed the evidence to its conclusion - evolution. Congratulations Charlie - welcome among the sane.

You *can* be an atheist and still invokee intelligent design. They are NOT mutually exclusive.


That's true - being an atheist doesn't necessarily mean that you have more intelligence than a can of tuna, and in case you don't, then ID Creationism might seem reasonable to you, even though you don't believe in the fundamental premise of the anti-theory.



#39285: — 09/08  at  06:36 AM
Oh, and the story just made me wonder about exactly how rich the rabbi was, since his grandson was so busy sucking up to him.



#39286: — 09/08  at  06:41 AM
Arun writes: " This above immediately, for me, causes Russell to be classified as a crank. (I also blame him for having written one of the worst introductions to Einstein's theory of relativity, ever."

Maybe so, but you have to like Russell's definition of a cult:

" A cult is any religion without political power."



#39287: Orac — 09/08  at  06:43 AM
Yeah, the "evolution=atheism" canard gets really old and tired after a while. Heck, even belief that God is guiding evolution isn't incompatible with the current theory of evolution, as long as you don't try to pass off such a religious belief as science. Science just can't show one way or the other whether a supernatural being is guiding evolution; so it doesn't address the question. It's concerned with observable phenomenon and testable hypotheses.

--
Orac “A statement of fact cannot be insolent.”
http://oracknows.blogspot.com



#39288: — 09/08  at  06:47 AM
As said above, the story reflects well the idea that the elderly person is priviledged to being served by young whether they deserve it or not. It is not about kindness or action through love but loyalty and obedience first. The shoes or sandwich are just the foreplay but go all the way to dictating others the proper world view.

Makes one ill.



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