Pharyngula

Pharyngula has moved to http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/

Monday, March 07, 2005

Odd academic habits

Sean Carroll asks the question every scientist who attends a humanities talk asks: why are they reading a paper out loud?

Here's a simple way that academia could be greatly improved: humanities professors should stop reading their papers out loud, and start talking from notes like normal people. I will never understand why they do this in the first place. There is no reason why humanists, trained in the arts of rhetoric and communication, should be even worse at giving talks than scientists are. It's certainly not because it's easier to read a pre-written paper word for word; I tried it at an humanities conference once and found it to be utterly awkward and unnatural. I thought the Western tradition was supposed to valorize speech over writing. Does this go back to Plato's battle vs. the Sophists or something?

Yeah, what's up with that? I try to attend our campus faculty lecture series here, which is a mix of people from various disciplines, and that's the most striking difference. The humanities people put up a stack of papers on a lectern, stand behind it, and basically don't move much at all while reading aloud. The science people move the lectern out of the way, clearing the podium, and fire up the projector—then they talk informally while flipping through data and waving their arms a lot.

To put it in grossly unfair terms that favor my side of the divide, the humanities people sound formal and stilted and don't show their evidence and put me to sleep, while the scientists are dynamic and invite questions and interaction. In the Senior Seminar are students are required to give in their final year, we explicitly tell them they shouldn't read a prepared script, and we dock 'em points if they do. So why do you humanities people out there put yourselves in this formal straightjacket when you give talks?


Here's another weird academic difference, from Inside Higher Ed:

The other day I had my composition students in groups, ready to "peer edit," according to the latest pedagogy. Suddenly one student just got up, and started for the door. I glared at her. "Just going to the bathroom," she airly explained. I did not reply.

Wrong. I should have said or done something. We cannot have students wandering out of our classrooms at will. That way lies -- what? High school? Or do they ask permission from the teacher first in high school? Elementary school? This is where they are presumably taught to ask, and certainly where they must learn to discipline their bodily functions.

Most likely my student did not have to go to the bathroom. She just wanted to stroll a bit before bending to the task at hand. Another student might have been more aggressive, in order to demonstrate her dislike of the task, if not school itself. But in any case, what to do? If doing nothing seems wrong, shouting at the student to sit down does not seem right.

I have always thought of the bathroom as marking the moment of discipline in the college classroom. Any student mention of the bathroom, whether in good faith or not, becomes as impossible to deal with as it is inescapable. When students do anything in the classroom that merits the exercise of faculty discipline, professors are on their own. The easiest thing for everybody to do is to look the other way. There are few rules, unlike those in place for elementary, middle, and high school teachers.

There's more, but that had me gaping in disbelief. Why so much concern for enforcing the attention of his students? I consider my students to be adults, and if they have to leave during class, I'm going to trust that they are only doing what is necessary. As long as they aren't disruptive, I don't mind at all. He actually has it backwards, I think: grade school is where teachers are often anal retentive and police the behavior of students more closely, and require silly things like hall passes to use the bathroom. In college, we assume they are all big boys and girls. I thought.

It's also a rather snide article. He seems a bit dismissive of this "latest pedagogy" (peer editing is new?) and assumes that the student dislikes the classwork. I get the distinct impression that someone likes to keep his sphincter tightly puckered.

Am I just more laid back than most, or do other faculty avoid treating their classroom like an EST seminar?


Trackback url: http://pharyngula.org/index/trackback/1997/5tETGSTf/

Comments:
#17835: — 03/07  at  02:10 PM
One might be unkind and say that the difference is that scientists bring data and a coherent narrative to the table, whereas humanities professors are lucky to come up with something even vaguely comprehensible. If they had to deviate from their prepared texts, well, who knows what they might do? End up sounding like a bunch of backwoods Pentacostals in a snake-handling frenzy, I suspect.



#17836: — 03/07  at  02:18 PM
Control freak. I wonder what he would think of my student who had to set her cell phone on vibrate and then leave class to get the results of an important medical test?

As one of those Education people (ah, the fuzzy social sciences), I much prefer the "Science" approach although I have suffered through many "Humanities" presentations. At least in science education we don't get them that often. Just don't get me started on the abuses of PowerPoint.



#17837: Dr Pretorius — 03/07  at  02:23 PM
One might also be unkind and say that the difference is that in the Humanities the papers are interesting enough in their own right that they don't need those extra bells and whistles the science-y types have to use to keep everyone paying attention.

Of course, in this as in so many issues, I hear scientists complaining about some feature of the humanities and notice that what they're saying the humanities should do is precisely what my little area of the humanities does in fact do.

And finally, yeah, the bathroom guy is out of his mind.



's avatar #17838: PZ Myers — 03/07  at  02:36 PM
Oh, I'd enjoy a good anti-powerpoint rant. I've got Tufte's screed against it somewhere around here, and it was a wonderful read.

I was being deliberately antagonistic to provoke a response, and I will admit that some of the humanities style talks I've heard were very well read...but they were still read. It felt like it was distancing me from the subject, and it certainly didn't feel like I could interrupt and ask a question.

Do people ever ask questions during one of those readings?

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#17841: — 03/07  at  02:59 PM
It's not something I've had much experience with yet, myself, but one of my favourite professors, highly skilled in rhetorics, always talks from a full script rather than just notes, unlike most of the lecturers at our faculty.

As far as I recall, he claims to have picked up the habit during his stints abroad, where having to lecture in a foreign language made it quite necessary to write the text out in full. That led him to discover that having a full script made it much easier to structure and present ones thoughts in a coherent and convincing manner. - He's still highly capable of handling himself "on the fly", ie. tackle interrupting questions or objections, speaking without a script, more or less making stuff up as he goes along, but if what he has to say is important, he prefers to know exactly how to say it.

Perhaps the difference is, that in science the emphasis is on what you show, ie. hard data, observations, numbers or whatever (what do I know?), while in humanities, it's much more important what you say, a clear and convincing presentation of a theory or analysis...?

But yeah, Higher Ed seems a bit outside his skull - And everyone in his right mind loathes PowerPoint

Anyway, I'm rambling...



#17842: Richard Zach — 03/07  at  03:01 PM
The standard format of a philosophy talk is: first the speaker gives her paper (which often, but not always) means reading a paper. Then there's a discussion. People save their questions for the discussion period, which is generally as long as the talk itself.

The rationale I've often heard for why philosophers read papers is that in philosophy, the exact formulation of your point is very important. I never read a paper until I gave a try-out job talk, where I was skewered in the discussion period. I could have avoided much of the criticism if I had paid closer attention to what I said (as opposed to what I meant). I decided to read a paper in my actual job talks instead, just to be safe. But I've gone back to giving talks since then--it's just a matter of being more careful. Giving a philosophy talk is definitely not the kind of thing that can be done well without detailed preparation (well, not by me, in any case).



#17847: — 03/07  at  03:24 PM
I tend to treat Powerpoint as just a slide projector where the slides are easier to edit. Few things annoy me more than a talk where genes and proteins keep zooming in from Stage Left and bulleted items in a summary appear one by one at the same speed that the speaker is talking.

The only thing more annoying than animated powerpoint slides was that professor in The-Days-Before-Powerpoint who would use overheads and attempt to keep most of the transparancy covered up with a piece of paper so that you couldn't read ahead to the good parts. Inevitably, the piece of paper would fall off, often dragging the transparency with it.



#17848: — 03/07  at  03:24 PM
I had the exact same response to the bathroom spiel, fwiw.

I knew that Philosophy professors read their talks (and the rationale given by the above two posters was my understanding of 'why' as well) but I didn't know that other Humanities types did so too. I think it's a reasonably good excuse for philosophy - not so much for history, English, etc.

As for Powerpoint - it's a great tool as long as you avoid all the silly bells and whistles.


Speaking of talks - given that a JOB TALK is one of the requirements for entry into the academy, I am always amazed at how many academics just can't give a good talk to save their lives.



#17849: Paul — 03/07  at  03:35 PM
There's one answer to your question of why they read their talks in the comments to Sean's post: the methodology and politics of the field can be quite contentious, and so its useful not to allow ugly interruptions. I wonder if reading the paper is less common during seminars at campuses than at conferences.



#17850: Sean D. Hurley — 03/07  at  03:38 PM
My first exposure to this was at last year's meeting for The Historical Society. The worst talks were "reading from a text" where the reading was done in a monotone or other unearthly voice. There were a lot of good talks there to.

The most important thing in any talk is to have a story. In a scientific presentation the story is predicated by having a hypothesis (or a list of hypothesis) and data from experiments designed to test the hypothesis. Of all the bad scientific talks, universally there is no clear hypothesis and the experiments are not coherently linked together.

A good speaker can engage the audience whether from a script or from a powerpoint. But, like PZ, I tend to be somewhat loose in my style, trying to invite interaction with the audience and engagement with my stories.



#17851: — 03/07  at  03:51 PM
Anthropologists tend to read their papers verbatim too, and it drives me up the wall (or, more frequently, off to slumberland). PowerPoint and other gewgaws are definitely not the answer. I agree with Sean Carroll that "talking from notes like normal people" (the way most profs lecture in class) makes for a much better presentation.



Trackback: Great Timing Tracked on: Mind of Winter (72.9.234.70) at 2005 03 07 15:58:38
So I was ecstatic to see Sean Carroll discuss a topic closely related to my proposal to try teaching math courses like a humanities course: the fact that humanities profs read their papers aloud at conferences, while scienties speak from notes. Read ...



#17854: — 03/07  at  04:07 PM
"I have always thought of the bathroom as marking the moment of discipline in the college classroom. Any student mention of the bathroom, whether in good faith or not, becomes as impossible to deal with as it is inescapable."

Sometimes "anal retentive" is meant literally. This guy needs therapy.



#17855: Rana — 03/07  at  04:11 PM
_I_ used to present my papers instead of reading them. But then, I was working in an area where a lot of my supporting evidence was visual, so I needed to be able to walk around and point at things with the laser pointer, and that tended to discourage reading from a prepared paper. So maybe it's a matter of the evidence; historians by and large are dealing with text-based stories, and not with things that can be conveyed well with images or graphs. Plus the AV support at most conferences, well, sucks. I usually brought not only slides but also overheads and handouts, just in case. (A royal pain!)

One thing that might not be obvious, is that the "paper" being read from is _not_ the same as the paper that was accepted and which was read by the commenter. It's more like a reader's digest version, hitting the high points and leaving out all the notes and little fiddly bits.

So it may be that most presenters feel like they've already stripped down their papers a lot, without then turning them into a stack of index cards.

(Which I never used; the slides were themselves the cue cards.)

Moreover, it's not a matter of being _unable_ to do ad lib presentations; some of the most dynamic lecturers I knew were still pretty staid when it came to conference papers. I believe it's cultural, and the culture differs from field to field -- the interdisciplinary folks, and the cultural people, tended to be more dynamic, while the social and in-field people tended to be much less.



#17856: RPM — 03/07  at  04:34 PM
Anyone else (ie. developmental biologists or geneticists) read the name Sean Carroll and think, well, Sean Carroll ... as in evo-devo.

Piling on: Powerpoint good. No powerpoint and reading script make me sleepy.



's avatar #17857: PZ Myers — 03/07  at  04:40 PM
Yes, and that was actually my first comment on discovering his weblog.

I think he's managed to prove himself worthy of his distinguished name so far.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



Trackback: The Leon Kass of public conveniences Tracked on: Pandagon (66.250.68.52) at 2005 03 07 16:48:01
If this is a parody of Leon Kass, it's brilliant. Otherwise, it's just very, very disturbing. Going to the Bathroom by Terry Ceasar The other day I had my composition students in groups, ready to "peer edit," according to the...



#17861: — 03/07  at  05:02 PM
In my experience, scholars read papers for these reasons: 1. The nervous presenter heads off criticism by boring potential critics to death first; 2. Writing the paper gets the reader a step up on preparing an article for submission to a journal/inclusion in the edited volume that comes out of the conference panel. 3. Presenting a paper is a formality that is required to get funding for travel; the really interesting conversations go on outside the conference rooms (restaurants, hotel rooms, lounge, bar etc. etc. It’s remarkable then that listening to papers being read isn’t invariably an awful and pointless experience; it’s very possible to learn a lot and have plenty of questions to ask. The main difficulty is that it is really hard to keep up the level of concentration one needs to listen carefully to paper after paper after paper; you simply wear out. Perhaps this explains the “bus station” atmosphere in many panels, with listeners coming and going at will, although I have been told by colleagues that this only happens in America. I wonder if this observation has any bearing on the “bathroom” section of the original post…..?



#17864: New Kid on the Hallway — 03/07  at  05:29 PM
I agree with Rana that it's cultural; from a purely self-centered point of view, I'm going to read rather than speak because there are plenty of folks in the humanities who are so used to hearing people read that they see speaking from notes as a sign of being unprepared/scattered (case in point: at a conference 10 days ago I saw one speaker speak their paper and very much enjoyed it, but the person I was there with thought it was a scattered mess. I don't think it was at all, but when culture says you read, then speaking from notes sounds weird).

I'd also follow up on people's points above about language; I think that people in humanities read because at some level, what we do is all about language, and manipulating/interpreting/reading language, so the feeling is that the specific language you use to make an argument is important. (And I won't be able to reproduce all that specific language if I'm speaking from notes.)

You get used to hearing papers read, though. When I started grad school I had a hard time following scholarly papers (or, I should say, remembering anything afterwards), but it became a skill that I developed.

And there is a world of difference between well-read and poorly-read papers - I agree that the latter are terrible. When I present I always try to write the paper as if I'm speaking, so I'm still reading, but it's more designed to be heard than read (there's nothing more deadly than someone getting up and reading aloud a scholarly article ready for publication).

I do have to disagree respectfully with Rana's comments about how the paper read is different from the paper submitted - because of the umpteen conferences I've attended, I've only had 2 with commentators, and therefore have never submitted any of the other papers ahead of time! So I'm not stripping notes etc. for conference presentations - I don't write them in to begin with! (though this is digressing a little...)

I suspect the cultural difference also derives from what I understand to be the completely different nature of conferences in the 2 fields. In the humanities, panels are generally themed, there are 3-4 papers all related to a specific issue, there is often (though not always) a commentator - whereas my impression from scientists I've talked to is that this is UTTERLY foreign to science conferences, where everyone gets up in turn and presents their stuff, but there are no panels per se and therefore no sense that the small groups of papers should be engaging each other in some way. (If I'm misrepresenting the sciences, I apologize, but the biology and math people I've talked to were utterly bemused at the way that humanities conferences were run.) Now, I'm not sure how that particular difference would tie in to the reading/speaking divide, but it wouldn't surprise me if there was some kind of connection.

And yes, the concern about the bathroom breaks is way too obsessive and, well, anal...



's avatar #17867: PZ Myers — 03/07  at  06:08 PM
Yeah, it is alien. Science sessions may be themed, but no, you don't generally engage the talks before and after you. Sometimes it works out that there is some give-and-take, but that's not common.

Which is interesting...I was seeing the reading of papers as having a distancing effect, but when you get right down to it, there may actually be less interaction during and between the talks in science meetings.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#17868: Rana — 03/07  at  06:24 PM
New Kid -- that's interesting about your different experience with the papers and pre-submitting them. Maybe it's a field thing? All the papers I ever gave -- with one exception (at a _horrible_ conference that was just a nasty ol' grab-bag of random disciplines) -- were pre-submitted (though in a couple of cases just the day before) and presented in panels consisting of 3 presenters and a commenter, the latter being responsible as well for intros, tying the three papers together in some way, and question-wrangling afterward.

I do agree that the format is much more about establishing links _between_ papers (and even panels, on occasion) than it looks at first glimpse. I also agree that listening to the papers is a learned skill.

I'd add that listening to a paper is a much different experience when you're familiar with the field in question that when you're not. You pick up on all the implied and unspoken subtexts, are constantly putting it in context with your own work and other things you know, and thus -- at least this was the case for me -- there was a lot of "been there/know that" stuff that I could tune out and save my mental energy for the new and relevant stuff. And if you didn't get something, well, that's what the question session and then the after-panel schmooze are for.

That said, a lively presenter with clearly organized ideas and well-chosen and intriguing examples is a joy to behold. smile



#17870: Rana — 03/07  at  06:26 PM
Oh, and I totally agree about the bathroom thing. I didn't _want_ to know why my students needed to leave the room!

(Of course, most of them had the self-control to either slip out quietly, or to wait until a moment when it wouldn't be distruptive. The most self-controlled, of course, took care of things before coming to class.)



#17871: — 03/07  at  06:29 PM
Ever see Richard Dawkins talk? Best. Speaker. Ever. He's arguably somewhere between humanities and science. He uses very sparse slides, usually just a single image, no text, that he talks the audience through. That's the way to give an engaging talk; of course, to do so you really need to know what you're talking about.



#17877: New Kid on the Hallway — 03/07  at  07:41 PM
Rana, yeah, it probably is a field thing. A couple of big national conferences that I've been at (like the AHA) do require commentators, but the Medieval Academy doesn't and the really big medieval conference (Kalamazoo) leaves it up to the individual session organizers (Kzoo is organized in an unusual way, though). If you get a good commentator it's a really great way to tie things together, though I've seen some tedious and self-indulgent commentators, too.



#17880: — 03/07  at  08:14 PM
scattered thoughts

1. It can depend on how often you've done a presentation. I always prefer to speak, to be looking into the eyes of the audience rather than at the words on a page. But the danger is that in speaking one gets excited enough to skip over a key qualification or subsidiary point. So if it's brand-new research, it can be safer to write out a talk and more or less read it, although hopefully the writing and reading can be geared to oral presentation -- plainer style, shorter sentences, a little more repetition. Once I've done a presentation 2-3 times I've internalized the whole path of the argument, the potential pitfalls, the language, and can do it from just a few guidepost notes, like talking to a class. But by that point it's no longer new enough to be given in public.

2. I've also noticed that *some* academic venues seem to expect one to read a finely-wrought paper and to resent being talked to as though they were students.

3. Humanists may assume that the texts they discuss are already known to their audience, so they don't need to *show* evidence.



Page 1 of 2 pages  1 2 >

Next entry: Homo floresiensis's brain—Igor didn't screw up!

Previous entry: Academic Bill of Right Wing Rule

<< Back to main

Info

email PZ Myers
Search
Archives
UMM—America's best public liberal arts college