Pharyngula

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Wednesday, August 10, 2005

On interesting pairing

In about two hours, at 10AM EST, NPR's On Point radio program is going to spend an hour on Intelligent Design creationism. It's going to have two guests: George Gilder and Richard Dawkins.

I have no idea why the media finds it necessary to pair a smart guy like Dawkins with a flaming moron like Gilder, but there it is. Balance. Knowledge vs. ignorance. Competence vs. incompetence. Signal vs. noise. Half the program will be garbage, while the other half will be a guy incinerating garbage.


First half hour: What? Gilder is arguing that the impossibility of information flowing back from proteins to DNA (Crick's "Central Dogma") and the falsity of the inheritance of acquired characters is evidence against evolution? That's like claiming that because drawing on a computer screen doesn't change the program code, it means that computer programs can't be changed. This whole line of argument about information theory is just obscurantist squinking: information theory does not damage evolutionary theory.

Also, that proteins are the expression of the phenotype and that experience does not change DNA ignores the key insight of Darwin, that evolution is a process that operates on populations, not individuals. The neo-Darwinian synthesis embraced the Weismann barrier; it simply is not a problem.

And good grief, Gilder resurrects the Hitler zombie, trying to discredit evolution because some old supporters also favored Hitler!

Oh, man. He's ending his time by babbling about human intelligence "projecting itself into the universe" and Kurzweil's Singularity. What a kook.

One funny bit: his economic failures were pointed out, and Gilder started muttering about over-regulation being at fault.


Ashbrook recapped the last half hour by calling Gilder a "prominent American thinker". I am so embarrassed.

Dawkins started by pointing out the obvious errors in Gilders thesis: the Central Dogma does not conflict with evolution, information theory is not against us. Then he cut through the BS and and explained that all the talk about "information theory" is just a smokescreen for the old creationist argument that complexity can't evolve, and that increased information can't appear out of nowhere. There's a failure of the imagination there, because they then turn around and invoke an even more complex designer to explain biological complexity—it's an empty solution. Also, any incompleteness of evolution does not justify accepting an alternative 'theory' that explains nothing at all.

When asked about a solution, he recommends education, education, education—I agree, obviously.

Ashbrook brings up atheism, of course. Ho-hum. Dawkins turns that right around and hammers on the stupidity of believing the entire universe was created in the middle stone age.

One caller exemplifies the ignorant viewpoint of creationists, and asks the uninformed question, "how can you get something as complex as a person when even simple things need to be designed?" He tells him to go read a book. Good for him. He also gives a very brief summary of evolutionary history.

And to counter the question of how to reconcile evolution with the religious, he recommends Ken Miller's Finding Darwin's God(amzn/b&n/abe/pwll).


Aaargh! They bring on Michael Ruse after Dawkins!

Fortunately, he's mostly sensible today. He does his usual atheist bashing (we aren't supposed to say that religion is silly, apparently—atheists are acceptable as long as they keep very, very quiet), but at least he clearly explained that ID is nothing but creationism lite. Also fortunately, he wasn't on for long.

Look, guy, the way to get the Christian middle to accept evolution is NOT to pretend that atheists don't exist; they're going to have to reconcile themselves to the fact that atheists are thick on the ground in the sciences someday, and lying to them now won't help.


Trackback url: http://pharyngula.org/index/trackback/2710/Gj24l4GT/

Comments:
#34645: — 08/10  at  06:23 AM
"Opinions Differ on Shape of the Earth" - Paul Krugman's imaginary
news headline - some time in the near future.



#34647: mattH — 08/10  at  06:45 AM
Any ideas on how to break the press of the idea that this is real "balance"? In situations where there are no facts to back something up, it shouldn't be that hard to get the press on the right page.

We'll see how the host does. He's been critical of things in the past, but he's also been a bit too deferential to guests in the past.



#34648: Adam Ierymenko — 08/10  at  06:53 AM
Some of you probably don't know this, but not only is Gilder an ID nut but he was also probably the #1 cheerleader for the dot.com bubble. I remember... what was it... "Dow 36,000"? It was some book that he wrote back in 1999 arguing that "old methods of valuation are no longer valid." He got surprisingly little egg on his face for that one.

I see a parallel here that goes beyond just ID. It seems to have something to do with how the new breed of "conservative" thinks. What we're seeing here is the rise of what I call postmodern conservatism. Postmodernism is among other things the view that reality is ultimately not knowable to any degree of accuracy and that all claims to truth are therefore merely assertions to power. A corrolary of this belief is the belief that one can literally shape reality by pronouncing it to be so with sufficient authority.

That's what Gilder is trying to do with intelligent design. He is trying to "replace the materialist paradigm" in science through propaganda. Nothing is true; everything is an advertisement. (Apologies to Hasssan i Sabbah. smile That's also what he was trying to do with his cheerleading of the dot.com bubble. You see, in postmodern brain-mush land it doesn't matter that most of the dot.coms were producing nothing of value... what matters is what people with authority pronounce to be true.

These guys aren't even really conservatives. A conservative would say that reality is real regardless of what we think about it.



#34649: — 08/10  at  06:59 AM
The problem with the press today is that is has utterly no idea how to deal with pseudo-experts like Gilder, or pseudo-science generally. If the title of the think-tank *sounds* authoratative enough, they will go with someone who strikes a nice pose and is reasonably coherent for the sake of the sacred "balance". The claim is that truth will eventually vanquish error, but the fact is that as with money, bad rhetoric can crowd out good if no one gives a damn about counterfeit detection. OTOH, if it looks like, smells like, feels like and tastes like shit, the press will always be happy to let you know not to step in it!



#34651: — 08/10  at  07:00 AM
Dow 36,000 was by a pair of Glassmans and a pair of Hassetts. Gilder wrote some other roughly equivalent mush though.



's avatar #34652: moioci — 08/10  at  07:03 AM
Go easy on Gilder, guys, or else his daughter's gonna come smack you down!



#34653: — 08/10  at  07:06 AM
Oh, Gilder is a real snake oil salesman and may even believe his own claims. I figured he was a fraud sometime ago when he claimed in a Forbes article (IIRC) that it may one day be possible to 'lift' your consciousness out of your body and move it elsewhere. Um, no, George, that isn't possible when you consider that consciousness is *not* a stand-alone process, but is in fact something that only exists in the context of a physical brain and body. You may imagine you can copy a mental pattern out of the brain, but that is not the same thing as copying consciousness. If Gilder had been born 100 year earlier, he'd have been a big star on the seance circuit I'm sure.



#34654: — 08/10  at  07:18 AM
Any ideas on how to break the press of the idea that this is real "balance"?
Not gonna happen. Ever talk to a reporter? There are exceptions, but on the whole they're not the brightest bulbs on the tree to begin with, and a J-school "education" does less than nothing to help.



#34655: — 08/10  at  07:24 AM
Anyone know if you can listen to this live over the net?
Thanks



#34657: Alun — 08/10  at  07:36 AM
You can listen to it live in about half an hour via WBUR (http://www.wbur.org/)



#34659: — 08/10  at  07:42 AM
Thank you Alun



#34661: — 08/10  at  08:13 AM
I'm laughing already



#34662: James Vogel — 08/10  at  08:15 AM
Um, no, George, that isn't possible when you consider that consciousness is *not* a stand-alone process, but is in fact something that only exists in the context of a physical brain and body. You may imagine you can copy a mental pattern out of the brain, but that is not the same thing as copying consciousness.

I happen to agree that Glider, to a large degree, doesn't know what the hell he's talking about (particularly regarding evolution). In this particular instance, however, the question isn't as clear-cut as it seems. The nature of consciousness is far from a settled question, and it's not obvious why something like a Moravec transfer (uploading via gradual replacement of individual neurons with neuron-equivalent nanobots) shouldn't be theoretically plausible.

On the other hand, you may be right. Then again, unless there have been recent breakthroughs in cognitive science that I don't know about (possible), you may be wrong.



#34664: notheory — 08/10  at  08:26 AM
Yet another god (oops, i mean intelligent design) of the gaps argument. Just because we don't have full explanations of all physical phenomena does not mean that explanations are in principle impossible.

In conclusion, David Horowitz is an intellectual pygmy.



's avatar #34666: Raven — 08/10  at  08:34 AM
Right, notheory. If these guys had taken on mathematics rather than biology, there'd be no calculus if they had their way, because they'd never be able to get over Zeno's paradox.



#34667: James Vogel — 08/10  at  08:35 AM
Can't listen live (at work) - if there's a recording available, can someone point me to it?



#34668: James Vogel — 08/10  at  08:36 AM
Or rather, when a recording becomes available. (Sorry to double-post so quickly.)



#34670: notheory — 08/10  at  08:40 AM
Vogel: you should be able to get to them via http://www.onpointradio.org/shows/

In conclusion, David Horowitz is an intellectual pygmy.



#34671: — 08/10  at  08:42 AM
Strange that Richard Dawkins would be appearing on a forum designed to give a "balanced" presentation of both "sides." He has long been on record as being against debating Creationists, since doing so is too likely to give the public the impression that this is a real controversy within science. Perhaps he has changed his mind?

If so, it's a bit ironic. About a year ago there were a couple of point-counterpoint articles in Free Inquiry on the merits of debating creationism/Intelligent Design. Dawkins was on the 'don't do it' side, and evolutionary biologist Massimo Pigliucci took the "yes we should" view.

Since then, Pigliucci has changed his mind, explaining his reasons on his new blog (at http://www.rationallyspeaking.org) He admits it's not very effective. Bottom line, Creationists are too glib and slick, and science takes time and work to explain and understand.



#34674: — 08/10  at  08:52 AM
I am listening to the conversation now. Couple things:

1. Dawkins did not agree to debate Gilder directly. Gilder spoke for a half an hour and now Dawkins has his half an hour.

2. One annoying thing about the entire conversation is that Dawkins accepts the creationist/id framing by using that goddamned term "Darwinist" over and over. Aggravating.



#34675: James Vogel — 08/10  at  08:53 AM
... Which I would have known if I had followed the link in the original post. I plead lack of coffee. Thanks.



#34676: notheory — 08/10  at  08:53 AM
Talking points:
Dawkin's just said "survival of a fittest". This is one of the things that gets me. That term is so tightly entwined with things like Social Darwinism, that i've always wondered if that does more damage for evolutionary PR than any other single phrase in our shared lexicon.

I've always wondered why we couldn't simply say "survival of the fit enough". This is merely a glass-half-empty glass-half-full problem. As Dawkins pointed out, scientist (unlike IDCers) don't hire pr firms but, i don't know that we shouldn't be slightly savvier regarding pr.

Note to PZ Meyers: don't feel bad about referring to IDC as a theory on the BBC, even Dawkins implied that it was here :p

In conclusion, David Horowitz is an intellectual pygmy.



#34677: — 08/10  at  08:54 AM
"Do go away and read a book". Mmmmm... Richard Dawkins.

(My confirmation word is darwin!)



#34679: notheory — 08/10  at  08:59 AM
Brent: Having read the Selfish Gene, i feel confident saying that Dawkins, brilliant as he is, does not know how to handle people who are going to be deliberately difficult. The anthrophomoric language he uses when referring to what genes "want" and his willingness to capitulate to being called a Darwinist speak to his disregard for people being unwilling to pick up on what he means, rather than what others take him to mean, or the cognitive frames of others. One could claim that this is either due to him sticking to his convictions (which i do believe at least in part) or due to the neglect some scientists have to the sociological gap between those in the know (scientists) and those who are not (which could also be true, i don't know, i've never talked to Dawkins, and likely will have little chance, being a linguist).

In conclusion, David Horowitz is an intellectual pygmy.



#34680: — 08/10  at  09:00 AM
brent: What's wrong with "Darwinist"?



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